Possible problem with out of state production company
 

I'm trying to start my own business as a freelance videographers for weddings and other events, corporate and social. Sometime in May I was contacted by the owner of a production company in another state (I won't mention it for now) and asked to video-record a dance recital at a school on June 4th. The arranged pay wasn't too great, $350 for a 3 hour recital, but I wasn't going to have to do the editing, just record the recital and then mail this company the footage. I said I would do it for that price with the condition that I could use the footage to promote my business, both on my website and on disc. The owner of the company said that was fine.

We didn't sign any contract, in fact until a few days earlier I thought it wasn't going to happen because I had not received any email or call from him to confirm. But 3 days earlier he sent me an email with the information, part of which said:

Payment Terms: $175 was just sent, balance will be paid when tapes have been received by [company name]. (I also mailed return envelope to you for tapes & program)

He had forgotten that I had told him I recorded in AVCHD, not tape, hence the tape reference, but I reminded him over the phone that day and he was fine with that. He said on the 2nd that he was going to send me an external hard drive to put the files in. The next day I received the first check for $175.

So on the 4th I recorded the recital and everything went fine. I even put up samples of it that I edited myself on my website, but I didn't link to them from the samples page, it was a URL that I only gave to him and nobody else knew. Even though I had an arrangement with him that I was going to use the footage on my website for promotional purposes, as a courtesy I asked him on the 6th if I could go ahead and link the footage from the samples page on my website. Two days later he replied that no, that he wanted the parents to get their DVDs first.

Back then I thought that wouldn't take long, but he took two more weeks to send the hard drive, which I received on 6/17. Since I was a sick with a bad cold at the time, I couldn't go to the post office right away (he had sent me another prepaid return envelope, but I wanted to take it to the post office myself rather than just put it in the mailbox on the street), so I took it to the post office on 6/22, and it was a Priority Mail envelope and postage, so being just a few states away, he should've gotten it two days later. On 6/25 I talked to him and asked him if he had received it but he told me he had not gone to the Post Office yet (the return address was a P.O. Box). However, I have to assume that he got it on 6/27 or 28. If he didn't, it's not my problem, since I sent it and it was there on 6/24.

On 6/26 I sent him an email urging him (in polite terms) to allow me to put up the footage on my website because I was planning on sending presentation letters to many schools with my business card and putting in that letter my website's address so they could view the samples of the recital.

For over a week, he didn't reply. Since I had a throat infection and I couldn't speak without exploding in horrible cough attacks, I preferred not to call him, so I waited. But over a week later I still had not received a response from him, so I resent him the text of that email asking him if he had received it because I had not received a response from him yet. He replied the next day, 7/5, saying that it was his bad, that he had gotten the first mail but had not responded it yet. He also told me not to post the footage yet, that he was going to tell me when. Since he made no mention of the second check and I still haven't received it, I replied to that email asking him if he had sent the check. That was on 7/6 at 8:30 AM and so far he has not responded.

So by now I'm pretty upset by this situation. Either this is the most laid back guy in the world, not confirming the shoot until 2 days before the recital, then taking two weeks to send that hard drive, and now who knows if he sent the second check, or he's so busy that he doesn't have time for this. Either way it's not my problem. I had an arrangement with him that I was going to use the footage for promotional purposes, and that he was going to pay me the second half when he received the footage, which has arrived at the address specified by him almost two weeks ago, and that's because he took two weeks to send the hard drive in the first place, minus two business days that are on me because I was sick. The arrangement was that I was going to use the footage, but he never said it was going to take over a month for me to be able to do so.

So by now I'm thinking I'm just going to go ahead and put the footage selection on my website linked from the main page, and telling him that we had an arrangement that I would do that. Granted, it was a verbal arrangement, and I would have made a contract, but until two days before the recital I didn't think it was going to happen. So here's question No.1: can I get in legal trouble by posting the link to the footage on my website? My common sense tells me no, since I was the one who shot the footage, so in theory I should have the rights to it, but I thought there would be people here that might know about this better than me. Legalities aside, would it be considered unethical for me to do this, or do you think I would have the right to do so because he and I had an arrangement? My big problem with this is that every day this guy doesn't allow me to post the footage I'm losing potential customers, and therefore, money. I did a great job recording that recital, and I can show something of very good and professional quality that can bring me customers. But for those customers to come, I need to have that footage up on the website, and it's been over a month since I recorded it. I didn't think it was going to take this long.

Second question: I get a feeling that this guy may be playing me and not planning on sending that second check. After all, I shot this over a month ago, and I still have not received the check and he hasn't replied to my email about it. So my plan if another week goes by and I don't get the check is to call the dance institute that produced the recital and tell them that I can offer them the Blu-ray version of the recital for $50 a copy, since as far as I know this guy only plans on offering them a DVD version. This is a dance institute in a rather wealthy area and I'm sure many of those parents would prefer to have a Blu-ray version rather than a DVD, which would look mediocre even on a dual layer since it's a 3 hr recital, so it couldn't have 9 Mbps. Of course under normal circumstances I would never do this because it would be unethical, but if this guy doesn't pay me then I'm not going to sit tight while I'm getting screwed. So the question is, again, could offering the parents a Blu-ray version bring me any legal trouble? Take into consideration that the video production company is in another state, so any legal matters would have to be in a federal court.

And finally, I would like to hear your opinions on this. Am I right to be upset about this? Or is it normal in this industry that a production company would take weeks to do every single thing? Do you think this company is acting in a professional manner, or not? I think not, but I could be wrong, which is why I really need the know the opinion of other videographers with far more experience.

I downloaded a template for a wedding contract, I think it was from this website, in which it says that the second half is due a week before the wedding. Do videographers usually demand that, to have full payment a week before the event, whether it's a wedding or other type of even?

Thanks, and sorry for the length of the post.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

I think you need to go over all this with a lawyer. IMHO, you're toast and need to cut your losses, walk away, and chalk it up as a learning experience. Right now he seems to be in breach of contract by not paying you the balance owed. But retaining the footage and offering it to the parents would make YOU the one who has breached the agreement.

Just because he is another state doesn't mean you have to sue in Federal court. Fill your case for non-payment in your local small-claims court. But don't sell or dispose of the footage until a judge rules that it is your property to dispose of as you wish ... since you accepted the first check I believe you've closed that door.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Not sure what attorney's charge in your neck of the woods but I would never consult one for $175 for what could be described at this point as a "late payment." It's quite easy to spend that amount having an attorney just write a letter.

Do NOT contact the dance recital company with your $50 Blu Ray offer because as soon as the $175 check shows up, who now looks to be acting in an unethical way? Rest assured the production company WILL find out about what you are attempting to do because more than likely the person you need to contact at the recital company is the same person who is working with the production company that hired you.

On 6/26 you said you were politely "urging him to allow you to put up the footage" and he was slow in responding. Really? It sounds like you are attempting to use the footage he half paid for to compete directly against him. I can see where he may be a little slow to respond and if you don't have a written release from him allowing you to use the footage, then don't.

It wouldn't be too hard for him to turn this around to look like you were hired to do a job and you misued or abused that relationship for personal gain.

Slow pay customers are problematic, just don't compromise your integrity in trying to get them to respond.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

I would say there are some good lessons to be gained from this. The main one being never "trust" anybody in a business environment. You leave yourself wide open. State your terms that protect you so you do not get hurt, with or without a contract.

Also, up front money for finished services is how I work. If the other person can not get on board then they can find another vendor. By sending the finished product to him without your payment gives away your gentle leverage in the situation.

Contracts are great because they outline what is expected from all parties involved, but at lower dollar amounts they do not "protect" you very much. The cost of effective legal action is quite high. How you structure the deal is how to protect yourself.

BTW, I hope you only used one camera for $350...

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Complete side note re: AVCHD delivery -

Considering the stupidly cheap price of SDHC (ex: Transcend SDHC cards via someplace like BH Photo or Amazon), I treat it like tape - a consumable that the client pays for and is mailed off never to be touched again by my hands. Really, it's cheaper per hour than HDV masters now, and cheaper than mailing a hard drive.

If the client really doesn't want to pay for the card, I shoot to 8GB cards (each fitting ~1hr footage) and then burn the contents of those to DVD-DL's.


As to your specific incident, IMO it's not worth getting ruffled over $175. Keep checking in with your client, and if in a few weeks/months you still don't hear anything, check in with HIS client (the recital co.) in a laid-back manner (ie, "have you seen the DVD yet, how did it turn out?") and see where things go from there.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

The idea wasn't to contact the company without telling him, it was to tell him (if more weeks go by and no check) that I will try to recover the lost money by offering the blu-ray to the dance institute.

No, it doesn't sound like I'm attempting to use the footage he half paid for to compete against him, because we agreed from the very first time we spoke on the phone that I was going to use the footage for promotional purposes. It would be different if we wouldn't have discussed that and then after the recital I ask him to put up the footage on my website. The difference is that we had an agreement about it. Because of that agreement I may be using the footage to compete against him, but he agreed to it. Besides, this is my neck of the woods, I don't intend to send promotional letters to the state he does business in, only in a 60 mile radius around where I live.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

It was two, but one was static. Was this price about right, or way too cheap? Basically he presented it to me as a take it or leave it deal, and given that I'm just getting started and I don't have any customers, I took it.

So what I gather is that you guys think it would be a bad idea to offer the Blu-ray to the dance institute, because that wasn't the deal with him. But what about putting the footage up on my website? That was the deal I had with him. Maybe I got this wrong, but legally, don't I hold the copyright to that footage even if he hired me for it, since I recorded that footage? I think I read that somewhere, but I'm not totally sure.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Too cheap should go along with your skills, experience and equipment. But if he plans on selling Blu-rays for $50 each, yes, $350 looks low for two HD cameras filming a three hour event.

Legally speaking this situation is messy. No contract, late to no payment etc... I say you put the footage on your website as you both agreed to and call it a day. Use the footage to go to local schools and try to get some business for yourself.

I would not approach the dance school about making a product for this years recital because ethically, they are not your client. But ethics seem to take a back seat these days in so many instances. (not saying you are unethical).

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

The $50 Blu-rays were my idea if he didn't pay me the rest. As far as I know, he is selling them DVDs at $40 each, and there were at least two hundred parents there, so he's making a lot of money from this. Had I known that from the beginning, I wouldn't have agreed to do this for such a small amount.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

That is good. No worries though because you gained the experience which is invaluable.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

So I just talked to the guy and he said that he had put the check on the mail today so I should get it soon. About the footage, we argued a bit about it, I told him that the arrangement was that I was going to use the footage for promotional purposes and he reiterated that he wanted me to wait until the parents got their DVDs. I reminded him that I wasn't going to send a letter or call the school or the dance institute that was his customer, so the parents were not going to find out anyway, but he told me that if I let other schools know eventually the parents were going to find out. For reasons that I don't understand, he's totally adamant in not letting me post a short selection of that footage until the parents have their DVDs. I don't get the logic since no parent is going to cancel their DVD because there was a short video online, besides I have to assume that the money collected for DVDs that day was already sent to the production company.

Regardless of disagreeing completely with him, I told me I was going to wait, but urged him to let me put them up online as soon as possible because every day I was losing money. I feel like I made my point, I just didn't want to engage in a bad argument with him because he told me that his contract with the dance institute stipulated that the DVDs were due six weeks after the recital, and this Saturday it will mark the fifth week after the recital. So in theory they should get their DVDs sometime next week and I should be able to put up the footage up. That is, if all he told me is true. At 40 yrs. old, people have made me so cynical I find it hard to trust anybody anymore until I see things happening.

Of course, I told him that next week I was going to send him a written release for him to sign and send me back giving me permission to use the footage for promotional purposes.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Sebastian, If I may chime in here again. If he already gave you permission to post the footage then without a standing contact you can post the footage on your site. So I would not send him anything as this would give him something concrete to deny. To avoid conflict do not put the name of the school, just post it as representative footage of your product.

BTW, dance recital season is over for this year so I do not think you are losing money per se. You will probably get more mileage out of face to face marketing rather than internet posting anyway.

Glad to hear he sent the check. It sounds to me like he is just trying to protect his client from possibly being stolen rather than being up to no good.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

I think I will rather wait, at least for a couple more weeks. While he gave me permission verbally, if I go ahead and post the footage and he finds out, he's going to be pissed off and then he could put me in some kind of legal trouble. I don't know this for sure, but for now I'd rather play it safe.

I didn't know there was a dance recital season, but regardless of that, schools have all kinds of events all year long, such as plays. My urgency is that I want to have something that I can show to a school that relates more to them, while not a school plays or gymnastics event, something that was done in a school with kids and teenagers.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Unless there was another agreement (and this all appears to be verbal slop, you've now learned to put things in writing), you would retain copyright to the footage I believe, as the shooter/creator of the footage. There is the argument he owns it because he "paid" you to shoot it, but it'll cost more than is involved to "enforce" this, and NOTHING is in writing.

Doing business on "internet time" causes "laid back" to become "panic" pretty quickly - as you've discovered, thus why you need to "dot your i's and cross your t's"... trying to do business on a handshake is great and all, BUT all the "unmentioned expectations" and "unfulfilled representations" will bite you in the rear every time. Even with a CONTRACT you can still have issues... but pulling out a piece of paper with signatures usually clears things up faster than "but you said"...

I'd wait for the check to CLEAR, then post/link footage. Once you've been paid, your "worries" have ended about getting "burned", there was NO apparent discussion about the timeline for you to use the footage, so there's no issue there. Looks to me like he dragged things out so that you would "agree" to his timeline...

If you were smart when you did the shoot, you probably can contact the studio again since you're "local", and land the gig for next year - it baffles me why they were doing things this way in the first place, but the internet is a strange place. Contracting with an out of state "company" (?! more likely a sole proprietor, IMO) to do a "local" production seems like more hassle than it's worth, but at least you now know there's a market for YOUR services...

As far as producing Blu-Rays... if he's not doing it, it's a competitive advantage for "next time" - perhaps a courtesy promo BR disk to the studio would make you "feel" better about all the hassle this time around... I wouldn't try to offer a competing product on this go round...

You've learned much about getting things in writing, your market, and the potential value/pricing. IMO you're NOT "losing business every day", business comes when it comes, and summer is an off season for many events...


BTW, since you already ran into "issues", be sure to look into all the info on this forum about pitfalls of video'ing school type events... things like releases, shooting coypyrighted material, stuff like that... it ain't as simple as it looks.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Thanks again for your replies. Here's one specific thing I would like your opinions on. It's obvious that I should have done a contract in which it specified all these things and with a proper timeline. In fact for a wedding I did last year I modified a sample contract (I think made available at this website for that purpose) and everything was neat and tidy. But in that case the customers were far easier to deal with and did everything in the right time, including sending the reservation fee months earlier and sending back the signed contract I had sent them shortly after they decided to hire me.

In this case, this guy called me about three weeks before the recital, but he told me he was going to email me the details that same day or the next day. Days passed and I wasn't getting an email from him, so eventually I assumed it wasn't going to happen. But three days before the event I finally got that email. At that point, unless I spent in overnight, I wasn't going to be able to get a contract out to him before the event, and even then he wasn't going to be able to get it back to me signed before the event.

So how would you have handled the contract part of it?

And, another question. This experience makes me think it's a good idea to request payment right before the event starts to avoid this kind of late payment problems. Is that the way it's usually done in this industry? Would customers normally agree to do it that way, or would I lose customers because they want to pay the balance when they receive the final product?

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

If they are YOUR customers, you should have no problem requesting payment on whatever terms you both agree on.

This was a mess because it was a "third party" contract hiring you to complete a job THEY were hired for... and apparently a third party that wasn't too organized about doing things...

Some customers are a breeze, others come waving gigantic red flags - you'll learn that in time...

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

OK, but I'm thinking towards the future, outside of this particular case. Is it the standard for most videographers to request the remaining balance before shooting the event? Or would most customers take their business elsewhere when they hear about that condition?

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Your problem is your customer is not the wedding couple you filmed, it is the production company that hired you. You are a subcontractor. You collect from the production company, they collect from the wedding couple. What the production company's agreement with the wedding party might be is competely irrelevant to you.

If it were me, when dealing directly with the final customer, I would make sure the deposit collected prior to commencment of shooting covered up to my break-even point. In other words, if they bail-out after the fact I'm not out any out-of-pocket expenses, only the loss of the shooting day. If possible, make sure even a base amount covering the day is also included in the deposit. Balance due on delivery would be my profit on the gig. I think unless you have a proven track record over many years in business, requiring payment in full prior to shooting is pushing it a little too hard ... just my opinion.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Some additional thoughts:

1. "No Contract": Some seem to think that because there is no signed written agreement, that ther eis no contract. This is not true. There is a contract. The problem is that it is verbal, with perhaps confirmations in writing. In the commercial setting, and even in consumer matters, writings such as emails may be sufficient evidence to set out the terms pf the contract. Intent about ownership and display rights to the recorded media can also be inferred from the email confirmation and interpretations of local law.

2. In commercial settings, courts will often rely on industry standards or fall back on the Uniform Commercial Code to resolve disputes between parties over the terms of the contract when terms are not specifically set out on certain issues.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

So I finally got the second check and deposited it, so that part is fine, but this guy keeps on giving me the runaround to post the footage on my website. A little over two weeks ago when I talked to him on the phone he said he had a contract with the dance institute saying that he was supposed to deliver the DVDs no more than 6 weeks after the recital. 6 weeks was July 16th. So on the 19th I sent him attached to an email the release form asking him to sign it and mail it back to me. So far I haven't received it and he hasn't replied to that email. Also a couple of days after sending him the email I called him, left him a message and he hasn't called back. Today I called him again, and once again it went to voice mail. So it would be fair to say the guy is avoiding me and I'm getting very frustrated by this.

So for what I read in these thread and the other I posted about this but in a more generic way, as well as this page:

Cinema Law: Who Owns the Footage I Shot? | MovieMaker Magazine

as long as there isn't a contract that specifies that this was "work for hire", the footage is mine to do with it whatever I please, is that right? I still have a small doubt about this, which is why I'm posting again.

As far as a contract goes, there is no contract with him, mostly because he didn't confirm this until two days before the event, so there was no time to mail a contract back and forth anyway. However, could he argue that the email he sent me with the information about the recital is proof that this was work for hire? Based on everything I read so far my instinct says no, because there is no contract specifying I was work for hire, and I'm certainly not his employee. But I would prefer to have your opinions on this.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Even if you own the copyright on the footage before you can do with it whatever you please you will need to ensure that you have all necessary releases or permissions from those who appear in the footage.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Maybe someone familiar with US laws can clarify on this? I know that if you do a movie or a TV show you need signed releases from each and every person that shows on the frame, but for a videographer's reel, I don't know if that's required. For example lets see all the promotional videos from wedding videographers, where you see the couple and at least 40 other people, maybe even 100 people or more. I'm sure that wedding videographers don't take 50 or 100 releases to weddings and have every single person there sign the release. Does any wedding videographer ever do that?

And is it different for most social and corporate events? I mean, I've visited lots of video production companies' websites, I have seen their videos of events they did, some of which contain several people at events, seems hard for me to believe that they got releases signed from each and every person there. Either videographers normally disregard the law or maybe the law is not so strict in the case of videographers' promotional videos. If anyone has good knowledge of the US law on this, can you please illustrate?

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

I’m not a lawyer but let’s see, you have minor children, probably young girls flitting around a stage, who couldn’t give permission if they wanted to. Parents who are working and or associated with a dance company who has a contract (that you have not seen) with a production company (who is not you). As to what can be done with the footage, regardless of what you two verbally “agreed to” there is no way for you or any of us to really know. What you do know is you haven’t been given permission from the parents and the production company who hired you is unwilling to send back the release you mailed. No matter how bad I felt I needed material for my “reel” I wouldn’t use it.

Regardless of how good your dance footage is nobody but the 40 parents who ordered the video think it’s interesting. Parents demand a “reasonable expectation of privacy” and many of these contracts will state that this footage will not be used for promotional purposes. Not sure how it is in North Carolina, but parents in New York can get quite snarky when it comes to images of their children being used without their permission..

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

David, what you say makes a lot of sense, but what if I got in touch with the studio to ask for their permission? Lets suppose I do a 6 or 7 minute clip, I send it to them on a DVD and ask them if they can sign a release for me, and to consult with the parents to see if they don't mind. Maybe I can tell them that if they sign the release they are free to use the same clip for their own website, to promote their dance institute.

Maybe they didn't hire me directly, but the guy that hired me was an ass to me, paying me over a month later when the terms were that he was going to pay me as soon as he got the footage (which he would have gotten right away if he wouldn't have waited two weeks to send me the hard drive), and then he kept BSing me about posting the footage, something that was a condition he agreed to so I would give him that low price, and now he's not returning my emails or calls.

So by now I don't feel like I'm obligated to any professional courtesy with this guy, since he screwed me on the deal we had. I made very clear to him that the low price was contingent on me using the footage for my own promotional purposes. At this point, I wouldn't even feel bad about offering the dance institute the Blu-ray version. After all, this guy screwed me, and by law the footage is mine. Unless a judge considers an email with information about the recital a contract. But based on what I read about the law, I'm rather certain that the footage is mine. If someone thinks otherwise, please let me know, I'm interested to hear your arguments.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Sebastian,

What you're missing is what David is trying to tell you - you very likely OWN the footage, but what you can DO with it may be an entirely different proposition. Because you don't know what the original contract with the studio specifies, you're considering posting footage of minors without any releases...

We don't know what all the particulars here are, and maybe nothing would come of it, or maybe you'll find yourself facing angry parents... many are VERY touchy about privacy nowadays.

You've made it very apparent you're peeved with the guy who contracted you to do the shoot, but keep in mind there's a studio, and a pack of parents also affected, and they may or may not be understanding.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

I think you missed the first paragraph of my previous post, where I say that David has a good point, but what if I contact the studio to get the proper releases, including the parents.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

The studio can't release the footage on the behalf of the parents. Nor could the production company that originally hired you, for that matter. Only a parent or legal guardian can give a release for a particular child. So what you actually need, either from the company that hired you, the dance studio, or the parents individually are physical copies of all the individual releases that have been signed by a parent for each and every child that appears on-screen. And you have to have them for every child .. if there's a group of 20 kids on-stage, 19 parents have signed a release but one is holding out ... guess what, no can use the footage.

My feeling is, you finally got paid, the cheques didn't bounce, you're ahead of the game at this point. Forget about using the footage for self promotion, or anything else, and move on. Life's too short to sweat the small stuff and almost everything is small stuff.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

OK, then I could send the studio releases for all the parents to sign, and hope that they would take care of getting them to the parents and back, in exchange for having a good video for promoting their studio as well.

My need for using this footage is that I don't have a lot on my reel, the only other school production of any kind I have is old and no chance I can track the parents to sign releases. So being able to show this would give me some business with schools. If I send letters to schools with nothing to show as a sample, I doubt any school is going to hire me.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Hi Sebastian, one of the things I make sure of is that studio's have a standard release clause in the paperwork the parents (or dancers of majority age) sign when they join the school or that the studios have all the dancers who are in the production sign when they sign up for the recital. It's pretty easy to convince the studio owners to get the parents to sign a release that allows the studio to use their kids image, likeness, etc. for all studio related activities that they participate in, for promotional, sales, blah blah. Then, make sure that the studios have the right to assign those rights to you too. In your agreement with the studio get those assignments of rights to you in writing.

One thing that makes life easier too is for you to sell the DVD's to the studio and they are the ones who sell to the parents, etc. Also make sure you don't get the faces of the audience members. That way you don't have to worry about releases from the audience which you should technically get too.

As for your current situation maybe you cold see if the Studio would be willing to post a video to their website and you could just link to that video as a reference of your work. Most parents don't mind and won't make a stink if the studio posts videos and images with their kids but they can get a little touchy if it is another business posting those the same thing. I don't do very many recital videos anymore but it is a good way to get a business started. Once you get in with a few studios you have regular bookings for the spring and winter. Doing recital videos aren't as stressful as dealing with Brides and Brides' moms but it can get a little interesting dealing with the parents, watch Dance Moms for how whacked some of those parents can get (no offense to any dance parents out there).

Good luck,
Garrett

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

This is debatable. While it's always better safe than sorry, if you're hired to shoot a graduation do you NEED signed releases from every student & parent? If you shoot high school football do you NEED releases signed by every coach, player, cheerleader & parent seen in footage? I think it'd be frivilous to file suit because someones image was obtained in a childrens dance recital that they were in attendance of without written consent.


Anyway, Seb I think you're getting a little agitated about this a little easily. 30 days for payment is pretty good. The guys business could have alot going on, or myb he does it on the side & needed money from the school before paying you, and the school gave him the runaround ("We'll pay you this week"). Anyway, it's not like he dragged you along for months. Really I'm not sure you can do anything until it's 60 or 90 days late, or at least that's when you can threaten to sent them to collection agency. And while some people seem paranoid about putting children on the web, I do think you're just better off leaving it alone. A better option anyway would be to get in touch with the dance school and mention you did the shoot and ask if you can mention their name on your site, just mentioning you've 'done work' for them. Maybe even take a picture of their location and use it on your site. I think that'd look better anyway, than some video of kids dancing around badly.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

If the school hired you to shoot the footage it's their worry to obtain the releases in order to be able for them to use the footage for whatever purposes thast prompted them to hire you. But YOUR using that same footage for YOUR purposes is a separate kettle of fish. I can easily see a parent being fine with the school using images of their kid in the school's promotional materials but not wanting it to be used for any purposes by a third party. How about if the school sold a copy of a picture of your kid in a tutu to the tutu manufacturer to use in his advertising? As a parent would you be okay with that? My giving you permission to use my child's picture does not mean you can transfer that permission in turn to a third party.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

1 month and one week may not be a lot of time, and I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it but his own terms were that he was going to send the second payment as soon as he received "the tapes" and that said tapes should be mailed within a week. So he got the tapes thing wrong since I had already told him that I only shoot in AVCHD. So he told me he was going to send a hard drive for that. He takes two weeks two send me hard drive. I take five days, two of which were a weekend, and I was sick. But I sent it back to him fairly quick. Three more weeks and no check, so I have to email this guy and then call him, in other words, stay on him so he sends me the check he was supposed to send a month earlier. Now, if the terms on his email would have said something like "payment due in 30 days" I would have been fine with that. Besides, no matter how busy he may be, this guy made a buttload of money, he paid me $350 and at least made $4000 from DVD sales, since there were over 100 kids and teenagers performing. So the least he could do was to send me the payment in the terms he had established, instead of me having to stay on his back.

But payment aside, he broke the deal. I told him my fee for that concert was $600, and he said his budget was only $350. So I asked him if I was going to be allowed to use the footage to promote my business and he clearly said yes. Then he keeps telling me "don't post it yet", "don't post it yet", week after week, until he stops replying to my emails and phone calls. I ended up sending him an email telling him that by law the footage was mine and that our deal was that I could use it in exchange for charging him a small price for the shoot, and that I intended to use it.

So what I'm going to do eventually, because I'm reworking my website's design and it will take a couple of weeks, is to edit a short promo that doesn't have tons of kids, to make the release signing easier, and send it to the dance institute on a DVD explaining the situation with the releases, asking them if they would be willing to give those releases to the parents to sign, in exchange for me making a promotional video for their website, which may be the same one I send them or another one if they prefer other pieces. If they agree then fine, if not, I won't be able to use it, but at least I tried.

I know I may seem hard headed to some, but the way I see it, if I shoot an event, I should have the right to use at least a compilation of it for promotional purposes.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

The problem you have is that your agreement is with the out-of-state production company and he doesn't have the authority to grant you permission to use the footage. He may have some agreement with the school - then again he might not - but whatever permissions they gave to him, he doesn't have the authority to subsequently transfer them on to you, a third party. Questions of copyright ownership (ie, 'ownership of the footage') aside, you still need the permission of anyone whose liknesses appear in the film in order to display it publically, especially when you use it in advertising which is what 'promotional purposes' certainly is.

Back in 2009 I had a client go bankrupt leaving me holding the bill for over $5000 in services of which I'll never see a penny. Count yourself lucky you got paid and move on.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Correct, which brings me to another point. This guy supposedly has been in business for the last 30 years or so. So you would assume he knows the basic laws and all that. So if he knew that I wasn't going to be able to use the footage since I didn't have releases from the parents, he just told me that to convince me to do it for such a small amount. That fits with what he's doing now, not answering my calls and emails because he knows that he can't let me use the footage without the parents' permission.

So it boils down to getting the releases from the parents. If I get them, great, if not, then at least I tried my best.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Well, anything is debatable and you can file a law suite for anything as my old business law professor said. But this subject has been debated before and the outcome, as has been beaten into my head repeatedly, is that unless your image is incidentally captured in a public place where a reasonable expectation of privacy is not present, your consent is required to show your image. In most cases for exhibitions, plays, etc, done in a professionally managed venue there is a clause in the purchase of your ticket that states that your image may be used and that by purchasing the ticket you agree and consent to the use with no claim of compensation. Do all dance studios have this in their production info packet? No, the smart ones do but many schools don't. Most of the time when proper release agreements are not in place people don't care or do anything about it. But all it takes is one person to object and it can become a costly nightmare.

Sebastian, 30 day payment doesn't seem that incredibly outrageous or long especially if you consider that many times, businesses have regular times when they cut checks for payments. If you miss that processing cycle you're kind of screwed. Not saying that is what happened and this other company sounds like a PITA to work with but something to consider. For me, especially when it's an independent shooter like you, I try to pay as quickly as possible but then I'm a small business too so I don't have to worry about processing schedules and I understand how even $350 is a lot of money to wait a month on.

But, the most important thing to remember here is that you want the dance studio to do your advertising for you. So think through the best way to maximize your relationship with them to help you get referrals. It might not be the best use of your time or of having to bother all of their patrons for the release forms. Perhaps consider forging a relationship so that they will ask you to produce the video for their next recital since you are local and at that point you will be able to make sure all of the required releases are in place. Also, see about helping them video practice sessions for upcoming competitions or other events so that they can review the footage with their dancers. Find out if any of their dancers need videos for applications to art schools or for applications to dance companies. Only charge a minimal amount for these services as your real goal is to be able to be the go to production company for all of their bigger needs. And honestly those audition videos are super quick to do and you can easily get them done in less than an hour. No editing is needed and minimal set up time (all of the audition videos I've done do not allow any edits, it has to be one complete unedited dance). Ask them if it is ok for you to use them as a referral and offer to have their logo placed on your website where you list past clients or companies you've worked with (I know technically they weren't your client but you did work with them). See if you could leave some promotional info (cards or brochures) at their school. If you can, find out what the parents of their dancers do. There may be a lead on another job through that connection. And, ask if they know of any other studios who could also use your help. The cheapest and most effective way to market is through referrals.

Just some thoughts on how you can take this situation that is a pain to contend with and turn it into a positive outcome.

Good luck,
Garrett

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

Garrett, like I said, my problem is not so much the 37 day wait, my problem is that he agreed to pay right away and he didn't. When I give my word I keep it, but at the same time, I hold people to their word. See, the problem here is that this guy had received the hard drive a few weeks earlier, and I kept waiting for the check to come and it didn't. So I sent him an email about it, which he didn't reply for two days. Only when I called him and talked to him he sent the check. It seemed to me like he was playing dumb, which is what he is doing now not returning my emails and calls about the release.

It's not like I demand immediate payment to every customer I deal with, in fact my invoices say Payment Due in 30 days, and if they go a little longer, I don't mind, as long as they let me know, or return my calls or emails.

Re: Possible problem with out of state production company
 

There's a lot to learn in starting up a business. Sometimes those "valuable learning experiences" are painful, but they are still valuable.

Even though you didn't make a lot of money from the gig, which is also the norm for most of my jobs, and you didn't get paid as quickly as you expected, you gained valuable experience. Not just for a video business, but for business in general.

30 day net is pretty standard payment practice for a lot of businesses. 60 day is becoming more common in the current economy.

You've also gained valuable tips on the forum here dealing with a variety of issues that all happened to crop up in this one particular job of yours. Take advantage of the opportunity to learn as much as possible from this experience.

One other thing, try to learn to RELAX when things don't go as planned. Today I celebrate the two year anniversary of my business. Very little has gone the way I expected at first, except I expected starting up the business to be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. That is one of the few things I guessed right when I started up. And I also underestimated how much I would enjoy this business.

I hope you learn to relax when facing the challenges of such an exciting, enjoyable line of work.