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Jody Arnott May 22nd, 2014 04:13 PM

Youtube copyright claims
I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with YouTube copyright claims?

I have a video that has around 100,000 views. I make a small amount of money through YouTube's ad scheme, and have done so for about 2 years... until recently when I received a YouTube copyright claim filed by "rumblefish". A quick Google shows them to be a company that deals with music licensing.

I have written permission for the music used in the video (in the form of an e-mail from the musician himself). So I disputed the claim in hope that "rumblefish" would drop it. However they quickly rejected my dispute.

My only option now is to appeal their rejection of my dispute, but in order to do so I have to provide them with my contact details. According to YouTube, if they reject my appeal, they then have the option to remove my video from YouTube.

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this. Have you ever disputed a claim of this nature? What generally happens next? I did explain to them that I have written permission to use the music, but they don't seem to care. I obviously don't want the video to be taken down, so I feel that I have no option but to acknowledge their claim.

Any thoughts?

Gary Huff May 22nd, 2014 04:51 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims

Originally Posted by Jody Arnott (Post 1846264)
I have written permission for the music used in the video (in the form of an e-mail from the musician himself).

Does the musician have the rights to give you permission to use the music? Just because he is the musician, it doesn't mean that is the case.

Nick Danaluk May 22nd, 2014 05:01 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
Was the musician Jimmy Page?

Jody Arnott May 22nd, 2014 05:18 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims

Originally Posted by Gary Huff (Post 1846270)
Does the musician have the rights to give you permission to use the music? Just because he is the musician, it doesn't mean that is the case.

He's a small local musician, I wouldn't imagine that he would have a big record contract.. but I guess it's possible.

Still, why would he not have the rights to give permission to use his own music?

John Nantz May 22nd, 2014 05:53 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
Maybe the artist gave rumblefish the license to the music after he gave you the okay. In this case:

1. Does the rumblefish outfit have rights to the music even though your agreement predated theirs?

2. Did your agreement have any kind of termination date? Or maybe something like "until I (artist) say you can't use it?"

3. Ask for a signed copy of rumblefish's contract to see what it says.

Their web site: http://www.rumblefish.com/

Edit #2:
Just did a search for "rumblefish music licensing problems" and found this interesting page:
Read the second reply.

I read it but, albeit fairly fast, and it seems to be to be a youtube (forgot the other name it is often called) and a rumblestiff snarled mess to ensnare the little guy (for example: "It's too hard for us to do what you want because the computer won't let us" argument) and give the big guys all the rights, control, and the money. If someone feels like reading rumblestiff's reply and deciphering it, it would be appreciated. But in the end, it kinda seems to me the heavyweights want to keep things simple for them.

Maybe I can kinda see where they're coming from but for some reason there is resistance and i just don't want to. Seems like rumblestiff want's "to work with you", make your life easier, and share the royalties.

The link (read the second reply): https://productforums.google.com/for...be/MUwy20FlO78

David Barnett May 23rd, 2014 08:41 AM

Re: Youtube copyright claims

Originally Posted by Jody Arnott (Post 1846273)

Still, why would he not have the rights to give permission to use his own music?

Contracts. Purely hypothetical, but just cause you're buddy is Pharrell or Bruno Mars & he writes you on Facebook that yeah you can use his song in a video, doesn't mean you legally have full rights to use it. Chances are the record label has claims to the master recording, and deserve part of any synch license agreements. Even a small label might follow this procedure just out of formality, regardless of how unknown the song is.

Paul R Johnson May 23rd, 2014 09:40 AM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
In the UK, I guess that everyone (apart from people who really know) assume that copyright is controlled by PRS. They get a lot of flack, too. However, they represent only the composer. The record company and the people who actually recorded the track are represented by PPL, who few have heard of. So if the person who performed the song gave permission, and even if they wrote the song themselves, it's possible that the others in the band, the record company and maybe the recording engineer and producer may also have a 'piece of the action'.

Last week I found somebody selling a nearly 40 year old recording he sung on, on Facebook. The other 3 of us really should have a split of this, but I'm certainly not bothered. However - if I didn't like the guy, I'd probably object - especially if I saw him making lots of dose!

Jody Arnott May 23rd, 2014 08:08 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
Thanks guys. It's good to know that the "permission" I got from the band is basically useless.

I'm going to get in touch with Rumblefish though and see what they have to say. Who knows, they might be reasonable about it.

Matt Sharp May 24th, 2014 07:23 AM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
I've dealt with copyright and content ID claims of a few sorts. In one case I sent cease and desist letters to the company that was claiming ownership and that got their attention. Turns out the original content owners told them to claim everything (which in effect, changes where the ad revenue goes) so they could change the advertising that was showing up so it wasn't for competitors. I gave them my pricing to change the ads but in the end they just released all the claims.

IF your permission is valid your claim could go like this:

1. Content ID claim filed against your video.
2. You file dispute against content ID claim.
3. Dispute rejected, claim reinstated.
4A. You contact the rights holder and have him tell these people to back off.
5A. They succeed and the claim is released, or they ignore you in which case:
4B. You file an appeal.
5B. They deny the appeal, which changes it from a Content ID claim to a copyright claim and your video is taken offline.
6B. You file a counter notification with copies of the permission you received.
7B. At this point the only way to continue the claim against your video is for them to get a court order.

Keep in mind, between each step they have 30 days to respond. YouTube stacks everything against you in this case.

Bill Davis June 3rd, 2014 02:58 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
Just a general note.

The musician might hold some rights as the songwriter - but those might not be the rights in play in a copyright dispute..

Some rights commonly attached to a music work include composers rights, lyricists rights, public performance rights, mechanical rights -including compulsory mechanicals, distribution rights, and most pertinent to your case "synchronization rights" which is the specific class of rights that allows one party to use the work in synchronization with the copyright work of another as a part of a composite creative work.

When you put copyright recorded music against video, you're in the realm of sync rights.

In order to secure these, you need to first know who holds those rights in the first place - and while it could be the original composer, it's often NOT.

Bottom line: asking the composer or band for the right to use the song actually may or may not be relevant. In the legal sense, what matters is who technically owns which rights, and did they actually assign you the proper rights to use the copyright work.

Welcome to the jungle.

Kevin Spahr June 6th, 2014 06:28 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
I know a musician that signed up for CDBaby's music licensing program and then a couple weeks later could not understand why all his own music videos he put on Youtube were being flagged!

A lot of musician seem to have no idea that assigning their music copyrights to a third party will also effect them when they want to make a video of their own music.

I also wonder if these musicians thought about how their music might be used after they sign their rights away. These internet licensing companies will most likely license it to anyone with a dollar in their hand - a porno movie, a political party you disagree with, or some rip-off tv ad. Maybe most people don't care as long as it pays.

No worries, they can always reclaim their copyrights in 35 years - if they remember to file the proper legal documents in a timely fashion.

Kajito Nagib August 4th, 2014 02:32 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
I received a YouTube copyright claim from the last video I posted with Youtube which I found strange since I composed the music myself on Propellerhead software. I appealed their rejection and didn't worry about them removing my video since I know it was some kind of mistake. Anyway it took about a month for everything to be sorted out but this is a little different from your situation. If you're making some money on your other videos you might want to reconsider. How important is this video do you expect to make a lot of money off of it? If they already show them your written permission and they rejected it why appeal and risk losing money off the other videos you worked hard on and posted on their site?.

Paul R Johnson August 4th, 2014 03:44 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
Since this topic started, I've been approached by a company who in return for 20% of the Youtube moneytisation will search for my music being used, and will handle the claim with youtube.

Did we establish if the song was the musician's own composition or was it somebody else's? This seems to be the most likely cause of the problem, but by sticking your own material onto Youtube, you do kind of give it away.

Jim Michael August 4th, 2014 04:12 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
An alternative possible scenario is that RF uses software that searches for patterns in music on YT and that software is prone to generating false positives. Then that software automatically submits a claim, resulting in conversion of some percentage of revenue for IP to which they don't have a valid claim when the producer of the video does not fight the claim. Given the large number of videos submitted to YT the only logical means of dealing with rights management is through a software solution. Pattern recognition typically has a false accept/false reject curve against which the pass/fail criteria are applied. You can increase your profit by erring on the side of a false positive.

Paul R Johnson August 6th, 2014 01:53 AM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
I'm in a tribute band, and one of our songs on YouTube is a beach boys song, that was identified as a copyright infringement of the beach boys intellectual property. We were rather pleased that it was unable to tell the difference between us and them, so much so, we now tell people "even YouTube can't tell the difference.

Andrew Smith August 11th, 2014 11:40 PM

Re: Youtube copyright claims

What happened in the end with your YouTube issues?


Sabyasachi Patra August 14th, 2014 06:11 AM

Re: Youtube copyright claims
I just got a longstanding content claim resolved with youtube. This was flagged by youtube on their own a few months back. They had asked me for my label. I use music specially composed for me and I own all rights including the copyright for using it in future productions. After several mails and sharing documentation it was resolved. Unfortunately for the last few months during the claim investigation my monetisation for that video was not available.

I was a bit pissed because people are blatantly downloading videos and reuploading and getting ad revenue from that and here an original content creator faces problems.

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