Filming of illegal activities
 

Hey Everyone,
I searched for quite a while but I've been having trouble finding any answers.

I'm doing a documentary in which the subjects will be breaking the law in certain areas. They aren't doing anything big, were talking very small misdemeanors.

We will be traveling part of the time and the production will be paying for the subjects to get where we are going, therefore "helping" them do something illegal.

The fine line comes in that we found this little world and would like to tell the story. The illegal activities would be happening anyways, whether or not we were filming.

We also do not want to put the subjects at more legal risk for our gain.

My questions are:
Can our footage be taken?
Can we get in trouble for aiding and abetting?
Can the authorities use the footage against the subjects?
How can news stations film illegal activities (riots etc..) without putting there cameramen at risk. If the footage is evidence of crimes, you'd be making a target out of the camera man. This of war zones or the LA riots.

Any info at all would be great.

Thanks,
Eric James

http://www.expertmagic.com/

I am no lawyer and I suggest you contact one with such questions. That
being said, it sounds like a really bad idea. A news crew has certain privileges
and they sure don't pay or tell people to do illegal activities. You would do
that. So I would expect you to be fully accountable and that the footage
can be seized and used as evidence in such a matter.

However, all of this is just speculation, of course.

p.s. news people are always at risk. I've seen various (physical) things happen
to them in the pursuit of news. Including death. Risks are everywhere

I think you absolutley could be charged with conspiracy and/or aiding and abetting.

Because you have a profit motive (whatever you intend to get from the documentary) in facilitating the comission of the crimes it could be worse than misdemeanor for you depending on the laws of your state. The video could be used as evidence.

I think most lawyers are going to to say "are you nuts?"

Yeah, a good citizen who becomes aware of premeditated criminal activity would report it to law enforcement, not aid and abet. Guaranteed, if I was on the jury, I'd vote to convict you of conspiracy.

I say turn the creeps in and find a more postive outlet for your talents.

It has been many years since I was a cop in California, but I still remember one thing. Conspiracy to commit a “Misdemeanor” is a “FELONY!” Don’t do it.

Mike

I think it is smart for everyone who posts in this thread to copy and paste the following before offering any advice:
I, "place your name here" am not a lawyer, nor am I offering any legal advice. Any information offered in this thread is simply public opinion shared in these forums.

I, David Nelson, am not a lawyer, nor am I offering any legal advice. Any information offered in this thread is simply public opinion shared in these forums.

Ok, sounds like you are doing this:
Conspiracy: As a legal term, a conspiracy is an agreement of two or more people to commit a crime: see conspiracy (crime), or to accomplish a legal end through illegal actions

One important use of conspiracy charges is that it relieves prosecutors of the need to prove the particular roles of conspirators.

In fact this thread you have started can and will be held against you in the court of law. If your luck would have it, something accidental could happen and it involves the law, this unfortunate thread could make it into the courtroom with you, even though unrelated, in the eyes of a jury they may question what exactly it was that you were plotting.

I'd be very careful what you post. In fact this thread might even be pulled.

Rule of thumb: Dont be dumb, normally actions which can be described with "break the law" in the definition shouldn't happen. Filming and distributing acts of breaking the law purposely, is simply a foolish act, asking for conviction. JUST DON'T DO IT!

Don't do it. Seriously. If you're having doubts -- and your posts seems to come across that way -- then don't do it. Documentaries are not the same thing as news reports. For instance, documentaries require permissions, model releases, etc., which news reports usually don't need. Even the staged prank shows (ala Jackass, Viva La Bam, Punked) require extensive releases, permits, and insurances.

Take a look at the Bumfight people, even if it's an extreme example: http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2002...-07/arts3.html

I remember there was some trouble for some documentary filmmakers who tried to do a graffiti artist movie -- but I can no longer find the article. If I remember correctly, if they bought paint or went along during the actual graffit bit or even knew about it before it happened, then they were in a world of hurt. And not only could their footage be confiscated for evidence, but all their gear, including cameras and editing.

I am a lawyer
 

I am a lawyer, and my advice is simple. Don't do it. Even this thread could be deemed evidence of conspiracy to commit a crime.

Chris Barcellos

Chris, good advice.

Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the advice. I will be talking more with a lawyer but my plan for right now is to "dramatize" the activities in a legal way. So the activilties will still be shown as it is very important to the story, but they will be filmed in such a way that is legal.

Thanks,
Eric James

Drop the framerate to like 5 fps, make it black and white and tilt the camera left and right really fast. That's the classic late-night sci-fi "aliens abducted me" documentary movie reenactment technique.

Hey guys,

Alright so I wasn't going to post what it was I am filming but I figure if this thread is already evidence then it doesn't matter.

So what's so horrible that I might be put in jail for conspiracy?

SKATEBOARDING!

Now I'm really glad that I didn't say what I would be filming at first so that I could see all the current responses.

Does this change anything?

I have seen a couple HUNDRED skate videos in which the skaters are being filmed skating on private property. I have never once heard of anyone being charged with anything. The most I have heard of is a $150 trespassing ticket.

What are your opinions on this topic now?

Thanks,
Eric James

No, not really. You asked the board for advice, and the board answered with the worst case scenario. No advice given here seems bad even in light of your skateboarding revelation. It depends on your town, your municipality, and how much they want to enforce it. In some less urban places in Arkansas, there's a massive crackdown on skaters, and the cops are itching to do something. In others, it warrants at most a shrug.

I know plenty of video people who used copyrighted music in their work and who sell it but who never get caught -- and a lot of the homemade extreme sports videos I've seen are notorious for this -- that doesn't mean that it won't happen (or that it will). The producers are just taking a risk.

I asked a cop friend what he thought, and his response was, it depends. You may get a warning, or you may not -- depending on the pressure of the town, the property owner, and the level of enforcement.

So I guess it comes down, do you want to take that risk or not. Yeah, they may do nothing, but then again, they might not. It could be a fine, or it could be worse. Legally, they are within the law to make your life a living hell, but sometimes, they have bigger fish to fry.

If you weren't worried about it, or it seems so absurd that skateboarding could be so harshly punished, then why even ask?

Well really both sides are needed for me to make my decision. I wanted to see what the worst case could be, or what the best case could be.

I really didn't know that it could be a felony to help someone trespass, and I take all of the advice above very seriously. Mostly I was trying to play a bit of devil's advocate to get arguments from both sides.

Thanks,
Eric James

I hope you don't give up on this project without at least talking to a lawyer, and you definitely don't want to do it without talking to one. You haven't given us many details on the subject matter, but if it's an important story to tell it might be worth pushing the envelope a little bit. A lawyer may be able to tell you how to go about this and still protect yourself (both your liberty and your integrity). You need to make an informed decision and weigh the risk carefully though.

Lawyer it is!

thx,
Eric

Working with law breakers
 

Eric:

When you brought up the issue, as an attorney, all I can see is the potential problems you could be in. We see worst case scenarios. Like I could imagine you working with someone who trespasses to do his skate routine. So you go into the property, and a security guard is there. Your guy is railing it on a hand rail and runs smack into security guard. He dies. A manslaughter case arises, including you due to your part in the planning of the illegal entry. Wham, you are in court. Maybe you get off, maybe you don't. No matter what you are out a lot of cash to defend. Maybe you end up doing time, maybe not....

And if your boarder himself gets killed or severely injured, maybe you have criminal liability issues there, as well as exposure to a civil law suit.

This the type of thing we see happening all the time, and we worry about as attorneys when a question like this gets asked..

Chris Barcellos

Hey Chris,
Thank you very much for your posts. I have never really looked into those types of scenarios before. They really could happen, and I see that now. Is it worth the risk? Looks like I'll have to decide.

-Eric

I got one thing to say about it all... Jenny Jones...

Figure out how you could easily be associated with any crime. Its like documenting AND paying a killer to kill while you follow him. Now that may be extreme, but the principal applies. You don't think you would have an "guilty by association" slapped on you?

That is priceless and is now going into my signature!


Just reading these posts with all of these advisors and lawyers was keeping me in suspense and then to find out that it was just skateboarding! HAHAHAHAHA! LMFAO!!!!

Eric, the following is a perfect example of what you are trying to do and how the producers get around being an accessory, contributor or whatever. I worked on the show Intervention that currently airs each Sunday on A&E. This show is all about people with terrible addictions whether it's eating disorders, alcohol or drugs. As we all know, pocessing and using narcotics is ILLEGAL. So, how does a show actually record these people doing these hard drugs like crack, cocaine, heroin, marijuana and other prescription narcotics without being associated with breaking the law? None of it can be proven to be that actual drug being used at the time! How do we know it's marijuana that person is smoking on camera, or cocaine they're sniffing or heroin in that syringe, we don't! So the producers say. This was a concern of mine too, being liable. I mean, a participant could easily say that a producer or camera operator asked them or directed them to use an illegal drug for dramatic puposes and then you are in a world of sh!t! Believe me, they wouldn't have done this if their lawyers hadn't cleared them first. As serious as it is, lucky for me the episode I worked on was about an eating disorder.

More than just imbedded
 

This was more than imbedded reporting. Eric was talking about financing the trips to where the activity was going to occur. That is a critical element. Much different than just filming the addict doing his thing.

Chris Barcellos

No brainer here...don't set your self up.

Can our footage be taken?
YES
Can we get in trouble for aiding and abetting?
YES
Can the authorities use the footage against the subjects?
YES
How can news stations film illegal activities (riots etc..) without putting there cameramen at risk.

their cameraman are at risk of being HURT by the persons in riots .. they are reporting NEWS so they go to where the news is (they didn't bring, create, pay the rioters) ..and YES News stations video tapes can be used against persons in the riots ..

now if your "persons" handed you a video tape of what ever they do ???

it all comes down to the "illegal activity " .. skateboarding =don't worry ..
taping a persons jumping off building with shute = don't worry (unless they land on a persons and kill em and you paid them to jump ) ...

I thought he was talking about paying homeless bums to fight each other or something. LOL

What's the old punk bumper sticker "skateboarding's not a crime"?

What I'm curious about is why it's illegal, I assume it's because of the location but it seems really irresponsible of a production company to pay skateboarders to skate somewhere and not rent the location, and here's the thing if it's a place that's so recognizable as to not let the skaters go there, then when the video is aired, and it's obvious they were tresspassing illegally, I believe the location would have a legitimate law suit.

For example, yo go to say the ballagio in vegas and film your stuff there, do a trick off the roulette table whatever, some how you allude the bellagio security (you wouldn't) and you publish the video, if it's recognizable enough that they were there, then the ballagio would have a suit against the company that released it and potentially anyone involved. I guess I don't understand why you would take all of that risk when you could just rent the location. So in my opinion the fact that skateboarding is the "crime" you're talking about does change, because then the only real crime you face is trespassing which can be fixed with a phone call and possibly some cash.

If the production company you're working for is too cheap to pay for the rights or even inquire about renting a location I hope you're getting paid up front if you do the job.

I'm not a lawyer nor do I want to be one, my advice is purely that of a concerned citizen and fellow film maker, the advice given is worth everypenny charged.

I love video and skateboarding but sadly most society doesn't like either. A couple years ago in Canada a kid was skating in a public park, he was arrested, fined, and jailed. Now this kid has a crime record, can't be hired and owes state (territory?) a heap of money, his life is basically ruined because he was good at railslides.

OTOH, every time a commercial plane taxis after landing and every *(&^%% passenger is standing up and placing cell calls before reaching the gate, they are violating FAA regulations.

If I had to guess it's easier to feel productive having collared a pack of "rowdy destructive hoodlums" then to deal with boom cars, spam email, or corporate crime.

The futility is that unless you have a lawyer there to direct your shoot and make sure you don't pay for tape or Gatorade by accident, you are breaking the law no matter what. Even if your lawyer says you are ok and you get busted, then the prosecutor just gets a better lawyer then yours, you lose, your in the clink.
If a 1980's Bam Margera thought like we are talking, then today he'd be rolling burritos at Taco Bell. He kind of got in at a good time for this but the point remains. I won't tell you tape something illegal, but you'll never start a revolution with your hands safely in your pockets. Where would we be if Rosa Parks followed the rules?

Can you provide details on this case? Because...

If he really was 'a kid' his record is wiped clean when he becomes an adult.

Having a misdemeanour is not the same thing as having a felony in Canada. You can get a pardon for things like that.

What is 'a heap of money' exactly? What kind of damage would the kid have to do in order to owe a heap of money?

Ooof, it was a case from some years ago, I'll try to find it.

I apologize up front for my writing style since I relate to odd precepts, but in my book even 21yo or thereabout is still "a kid" and while tens of thousands of dollars might not mean much to us corporate salary sticks that is truly a "heap of money" to an unemployable "kid".

The details are hazing but IIRC he was grinding on curbs and such in a public area. Not really a park, more like a commons-type area. I think it was more a concern of him being a hazard rather then damaging things.

The only way I can see a teenager owing thousands of dollars is if he actually did that much damage while skateboarding or injured someone.

Either that or he tried to contest it in court and ended up owing legal fees.

Unless you are hooked up into the property's power to power your lights or gear, chances are you'll be fine.
Also, you're subjects will know what is safe to skate and what is not as well, so have them make the judgement call..
oh one more thing, as long as it doesn't look too professional to the security they probably won't do anything but tell you to leave

This is the best I've got.
http://www.skateboard.com/frontside/...ewsletterID=33
If you listen, you can hear my credibility disintegrating. The additional research I did into the odd change of security habit at Mel Lastman Square security and extra postings on other skater forums is long gone.

Of course there's no way of verifying the story but if true, that kid needed a better lawyer. Either that or the city needs to get a better quote on its resurfacing.

It looks like a typical "let's make an example out of him" type of situation to me. I don't know what it is about skateboarding that just drives certain people nuts.

That was what I felt when I found this years ago. I looked at earlier posts about the park that said security never cared what you do. It was like they decided one day to crack down and he was first boarder on the street that morning.

I think the comparison I came up with at the time had to do with overnight installation of bumps in a frequently-sped motorway then watching everyone ruin cars the next morning. Being "right" doesn't have to entail fairness or sensibility.

Even if it never did happen, I'm sure a few wasted evenings with Google would yield even better stories from the more litigious nations. Not all skaters can keep a tough lawyer on staff, and not all cities bother to shop around for cheaper street work.

Eric,
How's the skateboard documentary coming along. I found this thread very interesting and informative. It's getting close to two months since your original post.

My son is a skateboarder and he and his friends go places that I thought would be considered trespassing. It was in a huge car lot. One day we were called by the police to come pickup our son. When I got there I told my son, "see, I told you you'd get in trouble for skating where you don't belong...especially a place of business". The police said that they were not in trouble for skating. The manager of the lot called the police because the boys were leaning against the new cars. My son loved that the police shot me down (figuratively speaking). I told him it's a matter of time.

I'd like to hear what decisions you have made and how things are going.

Good luck!

I, andrew todd am not a lawyer, nor am I offering any legal (or sensible)advice. Any information offered in this thread is simply my opinion.


you're filming skateboarding... a sport... the most hassle you're going to get(and i speak from experience) is some security guard telling you to leave... and if you're lucky enough one fumbly rent a cop type trying to grab a skateboard (great for the camera!!) you're not going to get into any trouble.. the way i see it is that i dont believe anyone is going to waste any time prosecuting a person who films skateboarders..

dont sweat it.. shoot away..

documentary on sneaking into movies, theme parks, concerts
 

They might as well have said "I am looking for a director/actor who can do both while breaking the law". I believe they want a college student so it will look more innocent if they get caught.