What's with people that dont read contracts??
 

then they have the audacity to complain??

I shoot weddings and events, and all my wedding clients know (i tel them this BEFORE they book.. coz id rather not have any hassles..) that when a corp job comes through, we take it onboard and drop everything wedding related until we get it out. Its for the simple reason that the corp work keeps us afloat, and allows me to charge significantly less than my competition...
But when people see the wedding work, theyre all for it, and are "happy to wait for it, if its anything like this..."
So i tell them on average i tcan be anythign betwene 4 to 8 months, as im a one man band...

So in my contracts, i clearly state that delivery times are dependant on business workload and peak seasonal trends.. so what part of that isnt easy to understand??

I mean they friggin sign for it right?? So where do they get off telling me off??

Its come a time where ive literally started to send clients our contract reiterating it. Its not difficult to understand (some people here have already seen it, as i posted it up for people ot use as a base for their own contracts) but still come one..

Oh one other thing.. the whinging usually happens after a public holiday or ON a public holiday.. yesterday, which is Australias anzac day, I had 3 cients who i filmed no less than 6 weeks ago called up, and a furhter 3 emails.. and these are from weddings shot in Dec Feb and March..

So whats the go?? I can only work so many hours in a day...

how do u guys handle this?? An associate of mine who also runs a video business has a wait time of over 18months.. he double and triple books weddings and he told me that no matter what he tries to do to explain to them, they always complain.

So what do u do ??
What CAN you do??
I cant afford to get anyone to edit for me and i dont trust anyone enough to hand over some tapes and get them to cut for me. so now ive got idiots who dont read fine print harrassing me and getting ths shizzzz.. i mean i can always throw the contract right back at them, but its not the best way to deal with the situation..

any thoughts are greatly appreciated

Pete, you are simply overextending yourself and you are at that point in a business where you have to find some part of the process that you can bring in someone to help with or....cut back on the number of jobs that you book.

It's great that you have a good reputation on the quality of your work, but people won't wait forever (myself included) for their process deliverables. You may have yourself covered contractually, but word of mouth has made you successful but it can also take you down if your customers become restless and unruly.

File it under 'growing pains' for your business. At the very least, you should be able to scan your footage and create an EDL for some hungry kid to log and capture from after you show them how.

jmho,

-gb-

thx for that Greg, i guess another thing which caused delays was that over teh peak season (Feb and March) virtually no editing was possible, simply due to the organising of all teh shoots.. (at least one a week and 2 on every other week)

i mean that in itself is 2 months gone like that.. and for me, i might be flat out, but my clients arent.. and think "hey woudlnt it be nice to see our video.. lets go hassle our video guy.. and the strange thing is is that theyre not nice about it.. even general "hows it all going" kinda stuff... alot of them dont see that I service more than just one customer.. and most of them dont realise that as an example, it might take me 10 days from start to finish to do one job.. but in one month, i might do 7 job.. now when u consider that LAST job, it could take me at least 70 days to get to it... so already were looking at over 2 months..
At this time, im recovering froma serious illness and these people dont care, and i can se where theyre comng from, but in the end, all i want is to be left alone to do the work, and thats never gonna happen.. i mean im even lookign at jumping into stills coz i cant handle this negativity anymore...

I dunno anymore.. i mean i cant not take on more work, as i gota make a living, but ive changed my packages to suit the current trend, but even with that, its a trial over the winter season and i dunno how feasable that would be..

being told that "they all complain" was something i should have kept an ear out for....

Hi Peter, I'm highly sympathetic to your situation. I've been in it too although it seems I've got more understanding wedding clients.

I let the potential wedding clients know that I do corporate work and local TV spots too. The advantage to them is that my diverse background means they get someone with a more diverse shooting aesthetic that other wedding videographers (that's the sales pitch to soften the "downside").

I also tell them that the diverse client base allows me to charge a bit less for weddings ("translation" the higher paying work can interrupt their's). I also include a turnaround time in the contract. I had a bad habit of underestimating that.

It generally takes me about a week to edit a wedding so I thought four weeks turnaround would give me breathing room for other corporate and/or wedding work. Ooops! Not enought time!

What were my solutions?

• Increase turnaround time in my wedding contracts with something like "up to 12 weeks" and I let them know it may be sooner though.

• If I'm going to be late (never really more than an additional 4-6 weeks later) I offer them an extra DVD or two no charge. They feel they're getting gold even though it might only an hour or so to burn an label.

• If my sched. looks like it's getting full I try to take on/sell a few more "raw video" weddings. That keeps the income up relative to the hours. This takes care of the ironic quirk that editing is undervalued (and probably why you're thinking of moving to stills). The raw video wedding usually takes a day to input and a day or so to "clean up" (I do that much and maybe add a few dissolves for a scenic intro). I can charge 50%-60% my rate and 5-7 days of work is down to about 2 days. Think like a still photog. Shoot nice edit little! Actually for that very reason I do NOT go "overboard" with my editing. I don't do photo montages or some of the other time consuming (and IMHO unprofitable) stuff. The heavier motion graphics is for those paying my corporate rate. If a wedding client is looking for that (I do sometimes show them my corporate and spot demos) then they're going to pay much more.

I have much more to say about the wedding video business and how most WAY UNDERCHARGE relative to the work (I'll save that for another post as this has been a long one). I will say this: Many wedding video clients are quite happy with good shooting and simple editing (sans heavy fx work). While the demo might not win a WEVA award you'll make more per hour even if you charge less per wedding.

Hope this helps

Craig

I have to take a contrarian view, Peter. The customer is not an interuption of your business --- the customer IS your business. You are not in business to make videos, wedding or otherwise. You are in business to make the customer happy and providing good customer service is the sole reason you exist. Your products, videos, are simply a means to achieving that end and their satisfaction is what they're paying you for, NOT the physical product of the video. The amateur makes videos, the professional services a client.

Good customer service means that each client must feel that they are the most important thing in your life and they take a second seat to no other client of yours, whether those other clients are other wedding customers or are corporate and commercial accounts. My money has exactly the same colour as that from Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe ad agency. How would you feel if you approached a business with cash in hand seeking to purchase a service and were told "Thanks for your deposit, we'll take care of you when we feel like it?" That's essentially what you've said you tell your wedding clients. Were I the client I wouldn't stand for someone saying delivery depends on our other business - it's up to you to plan your workflow so you can deliver on good customer service to ALL your clients and not take on those whom you can't service properly. I feel once you've made a committment to me you should not take on other business if it'll interfere with it. (I have that situation in reverse in my personal life right now - I have one client who pays half of the day rate my other clients pay - but if I commit to a day for client Low-pay and then get a request from one of the others for the same day, I do NOT cancel the first to go with the other - honoring one's commitments trumps earning extra money.) If I'm hiring someone to do a service or provide a custom product, I want to hear "We normally deliver in 8 to 10 weeks and guarantee delivery within 12 weeks" or some such specific schedule. Then it's up to me to decide if your delivery time is acceptable or if I need to look elsewhere. But I'd never go with someone that says "We'll do your work when we get around to it and you're not as important to us as our other [fill in the blank] kinds of clients."

You've said you can't afford to hire editing help. That just tells me you're not charging enough for your services operating at your volume of business. If you're good enough to service corporate and commercial accounts, you're good enough to charge so you net the same ROI on your wedding clients. The cost of doing business is the cost of doing the job right and that includes a reasonable turnaround time. You total up the costs, including the cost of employees or freelancers, add your required profit, and that becomes your rates. You might price yourself out of the bargain basement market but then again you might well find your income goes up even with fewer clients. It boils down to either hiring help or declining certain clients to control your workload.

thanks for that Craig.. teh "wording" of how you do things seems to be an elegant way to put it, as opposed to my technique of hiting them with as much info as possible..

I do have a turnaround time, and i tell tehm its approximately 14 to 18 weeks on average, and al this is dependant on seasonal trends and studio workload.
Most are good with this, and go for it, but then there are the others who just cant fathom the thought of me having to service other people before them.

What gets my goat is that here in Aus, there is virtually no respect for video UNTIL the product is recieved and its of a super high calibre. There already exists a negative stigma to the format and techniques used by the predeccors in the industry, and to this day, there are may business who still operate in this tacky way... which is why theres only about 15% of weddings here in aus which are video'd
Thing is, is that ive been doing this for quite afew years, with a corporate background which led me to where i am today and even with that, after al this time, i still dont understand the reasoning behind peoples negative attitude to video... its as if they EXPECT something to go wrong and jump at the first opportunity...

See my above post. Why in the world are you suprised that somone planning what to them is a very important event and offering to give you a signifigant amount of their money would be upset at being told they're needs are insignifigant? That's what you're telling them when you tell them that your other clients must come first. As new corporate business comes in do you just keep pushing the wedding client's work onto the back burner? Is there a time when you say "We have to get this out" even if it means turning down a corporate booking? As a consumer, my business takes priority over any clients that come to you after I do regardless of who they are or how much they're paying. Once you accept my business, that's it, engraved in granite, and I expect you to make my project priority one before any subsequent new business that might come in to you.

Hi Peter, No hostility or philosophy lessons about "customer service" here. Reality is we have to make living and we'd like to enjoy what we do too. I don't chop off body parts for my customers. It affects my future ability to serve them. Keep in mind I do both weddings and corporate work just as Peter does and face the same juggle so I'm offering how I handle lower priced weddings and higher priced corporate work.

Here's an analogy that works for me.
Some people here are describing the gourmet restaurant. The waiter takes your order, brings you food, offers you the wine taste and the customer is always right and if the meal needs to go back and get fixed some, you do it.

Some would say if you priced too low and/or offer too much you should just take it on the chin even though you have another restaurant next door that offers the same gourmet meal to customers paying a higher price.

Alas your chin is bruised and your not doing either client right. You end up serving the folks in the higher priced restaurant first even if the high service lower priced restaurant customer ordered their food first. You could do first come first serve (as some seem to say here) and you work just as hard and make less money. The higher priced clients have really subsidized the lower clients. The lower paying client should appreciate it but they don't. You need to fix that part.

The Alternative!
You have your higher priced restaurant and you have "McJefferson's." At McJeffersons they get no waiter service. They get the food at the counter. It's FAST FOOD. Now high faluten philosphers might look down on such a meal. It's really not bad at all. It's the One Dollar Happy meal. It's tasty. People like their one dollar me. It's TASTY FAST FOOD, NOT BAD TASTING FOOD. McJefferson's serves billions and dies a very rich man. Of course he made a good farthing serving the higher end customer in the other restaurant. Different clients. Different market. Different price. BOTH HAPPY.

Folks, before you pick this apart, I'm hopping you see the point. You don't have to serve all customers the same way, nor deliver the same product. You target your two markets differently and don't be embarrased about McJefferson's. It might not win gourmet awards but it's quite profitable and doesn't burn you out. You still have your high class service for the high paying clients.

You don't have to treat wedding clients the same as corporate clients.
You do need to be honest to your wedding clients what you're offering them and that will relieve your stress.
It does not mean the wedding clients are "second class." They are the fast food class. They get the meal with simple tasty ingredients.

The issue is that unless you're getting rarified top end wedding clients paying $5000 a wedding (or whatever), wedding clients generally pay less than corporate clients.

You DON'T have to serve them equally. You DO have to market them DIFFERENT products though.

Keep your camera work nice and your editing simple for the wedding clients. Do the "raw video" wedding clients when you can to keep the income proportional to the work. With the right marketing and approach you can keep both sets of clients happy.

My "raw video" (low budget sushi, steak tartar?) weddings get a reasonably fast turn around. For the edited weddings . . . while a week of wedding work and a week of corporate work takes the same amount of time, I can charge the wedding client LESS for a week of work because the delivery deadlines are longer than the corporate deadlines. Wedding edits fill in the days not booked by corporate work. I don't explain it that way but I do let them know that because I do corporate work I can charge less for my wedding work. The clients usually understand what that means.

Folks, keep in mind Peter started the thread saying that people DON'T read the contracts. It's not that Peter isn't being honest with them. Maybe he needs to make it clearer verbally. Maybe Peter needs to offer a faster simpler option for clients who want fast delivery (fast food). And as I mentioned before, if they grumble, ask them to be patient and let them know you'll reward them with an extra DVD (or a few).

James, being a "hybrid" is a strange place to be in. There are wedding videographers. Some are full or part time but that's the only video work they do. Then there are the corporate videographers. Alas there are a few of us hybrid vehicles like Peter and I.

You have to keep reminding yourself that the consumer isn't going to have the same understanding of contract as the corporate client. For consumers, contracts are to be feared or ignored. They close their eyes and click on "Agree" just like they do with software packages and web pages . . . cause they simply want the product.

Corporate clients will read it, ask questions, ask to tweak things, etc.

As a hybrid you have to keep remembering to "reinforce" bits of information to the consumer side of the biz. Ya, they still don't remember. I've had that too. I have a few stories on that but they did have happy endings.

Hiring temp help can be a scary thing for a mom and pop. So much reputation on the line. For me, it's how to handle/prevent overextending yourself. If you see the work mounting you change a couple of things in your marketing. I focus a bit more on the "raw video" weddings. If I got an edited wedding or a multicam wedding I fit them in by making a longer time for the finished product. Unless they've seen the contracts for your other wedding clients, or you do something like a have detailed contract with standard delivery times on your website, you can buy yourself more time. You still might miss the deadline but the client only thinks you're two weeks late and not six weeks. That standard delivery time contract on the website is for the full time wedding videographer, not for us hybrids.

Heck, it hasn't been an easy lesson for me to learn either. My wife and fellow videographer keeps telling me when it comes to wedding video that I either have to raise my prices or edit less. As I think Peter has noted in some of his posts, wedding clients (consumers as you aptly put it James) tend to want prices lower so the answer is do less editing. That doesn't mean do a bad job. It's just no frills. I'll probably never win any WEVA awards. When it comes to weddings I opt to be the tasty fast food place. Yes you can make money that way.

I see some of the wedding video demos posted on other parts of the forum and say, gee I should aspire to great things. Then I slap myself in the face and say don't be a fool. That's not my market reality . . . not if I'm a hybrid and need flexibility to do the corporate work and have time to sleep and have an occasional weekend. While I haven't posted any of my demos in the wedding forum . . . I'm not trying for that market or doing that much work for the rates my wedding clients pay, I'm showing my demos to my potential wedding clients and getting booked. There's certainly enough fast food millionaires who've proven that business model can work.

Craig, I'm on your side because I am a hybrid too. I just stopped doing weddings a few years ago because I don't like them. I do corporate work too. But I am fortunate to mostly do broadcast or entertainment work more than anything else. I totally agree about the volume business model by working on more smaller projects and having a steady income instead of a few large ones. But that depends on what the work is and this isn't like a widget that a machine can stamp out 1000s of every minute. This is time consuming work, not satifisfying to me as far as content, and the pay just isn't enough, at least in my area, for the gear expense and labor involved. Read what I said in the thread below. I have alot of respect for those that do alot of wedding shoots or do it full time. I will probably be shooting an episode of A Wedding Story for TLC in May. YUK! But I guarantee I won't like it because of the content, money or not, and I don't even have to edit it. Whether I like it or not, I always to the best job that I can. That is never sacrificed.

www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=49012

Craig - there's only one area where you fast food analogy breaks down and that is in customer service itself. Your economy retaurant can offer lower cost meals by way of a number of compromises - less opulent decore, pre-packaged entrees, short-order menu, no entertainment, etc etc etc. But if it is to be a success it must never stoop to indifferent customer service.

There's precedent to you restaurant concept by the way. In my home town many years ago there were two restaurants in the same building and with the same owners. One was upscale and called the "Scotch & Sirloin." The other was more budget fare and called the "Beef 'n Booze."

Customer service. Yes, that's why I mention doing things like offering "free extra dvds" if you're going to be late on a project. No frills should not be poor service.

BTW one of the things I bump into, very much like waiter service, is clients who want/demand hand delivered dubs. I'll do that for my higher paying clients. I get budget clients who ask for that too after the fact. My offer is that I'll do it when in the area if they meet me (they may wait a few days) or they can come buy and pick it up. I'm polite but explain why I can't do it when budget clients ask for this.

BTW I think the whole "Days Inn," "Comfort Inn," is also a broad example of multi tiered service markets.

I think if people who do video work think this way they can find ways to make both lower and higher paying clients fit into a profitable business model.

Sure we'd love to have all higher paying clients and work fewer hours for more dollars but many of us know we need the lower paying clients to fill the hours and keep income coming in between those rarer higher paying clients. The trick is not to let the lower paying client "demands" push out your time for the higher paying clients. It's important to come up with a model where both can get serviced within their price range. You can't do that if everyone is getting "waiter" service. You have to make a "budget tasty meal."

I'm not sure I'd agree with all of this. The budget client may get 10 hours of editing while the higher ticket client may get 50 hours. But the budget client's work should not be deferred if a higher ticket client comes in the door later - you do the work in the order it was booked with you and take care of the budget's 10 hours, get it delivered, and then start on the high-roller's project. Of course they may be exceptions for emergency, there needs to be some flexibility, but price should determine the quantity of services they receive, not the quality.

If you have a contract that states clearly what the policy and time table is and they signed it that's the end of the discussion: that's reason you have a contract. The answer to the client is a polite but firm: "my contract clearly states that finishing the video could take up to x months." Delays are a normal part of projects of this kind and they are part of the business as they are in many others.

Contracting for example. I remodeled my house about a year ago. It takes as long as it takes. My contractor was very good, communicated well, did excellent work . . . but you could never, ever pin him down on a date for anything . . . and I would hire him again in an instant.

It took me a long time to realize that the thing one has to be prepared to do is to screen clients very carefully and say no to jobs that look like they are too much trouble. This may mean you have to raise your rates and just give up on clients looking for cheap. This is not a business in which a low-cost high-volume business model works.

When I hired the architect for the remodel it was clear that he had learned this lesson -- he was the one interviewing me for the job, not so much the other way around, and that's when I knew I could work with him.

Hey Steve, thanks for the insight. Funny thing is is that this is what youre saying is that im trying to achieve. In the past (pre2005) things were swweet with a turnaround of less than 8 weeks.. were tlaking long form edits here with at least 4 bookings a month... but with a serious illness from april last year, which literally put me out of work for about 7 months, not only have the delivery times suffered, but so has the bank balance.
The hadest thing now is getting back on track as irrespective of how good the work might be, people wont care about that as the only thing they will remember is how long it took for them to get it. Then when they do get it, their expectations are much higher as they consider how long they had to wait.. so its a catch 22.

I totally agree that i do need someone to lend a hand, but thats not going to happen for at least anther 12 months until im back on my feet.. the business model analogy is a good one, as this is pretty much what is happening here, and those that do this by day, can see how it can affect the workload.

Moving onto deliveries, the thing to note is that lets say i book 3 budget and 2 upmarket jobs. All in the same month within a 3 week period. As an example, the budget would take 50hours tops each, while the big budget ones are anythign between 100 to 150hrs.
Now before i can even get to the last job for that months period, those 150hrs for the budget jobs must be delivered first. Irrespective of how much they paid.. BUT, if a corporate job comes in, the world stops while THAT project is delivered, which could be anything from 10 to 200 hours.. who knows... and thats the point here.. is that we DONT know... This industry doesnt have the predictive behaviour to be able to asy to a client it will take no more than X months..
Now moving back to the wedding clients.
Lets say that in between these 3 fast food weddings, we had the corporate job, and now its time to get the a la carte jobs out. by the tmie i get to the LAST one, hundreds of hours have already passed. Now in the real world, this could mean anything beteen 2 to 3 months before anyone can even review the footage.. Throw afew other factors in there, such as filming, preparation to film, consultations, accounting, marketing and sales, correspondance and everything else which pertains to the basic runnings of a business and youve got a hellofalot of work, for not that much pay. Considering the investment made, the skills and knowledge which is being hired for the day, and during post produciton, weding videography is probably the lowest consideration for weddings. Its not something which is seen as a necesity, therefore, people do not consider it to be as important as lets say photography, couple that attitude with peoples lack of understanding as to how much work is actually involved, and there is potential for trouble if your late.
Now some peoles attitude in thinking the less they know the better off i am, but i am different to that. I tell them EVERYTHING. From Go to Whoa i try to educate my clients when we meet, and when i direct them to my website, and when i literally go over teh contracts with them. No shit, i now sit with them for no less than an hour at a time and go over the contract and explain things to them, even though the contract itself is written in lamens terms.
Now even with this, they dont seem to want to understand what theyre getting themselve into here. Sure my work is good, but im not out to make a name for myself, im not trying to win awards and im not wanting to be the best. Im not trying to boost my ego and im not trying to win anyones approval or prove my worth to anyone.
I want to be differnt, yes, but i dont care about being the best. To my clients, i AM the best else they wouldnt have chosen me over everyone else they considered. To me thats all thats important.
With this, THIS is why i am hired. Price comes secondary to that. To me THIS is what is important, not the cash.. If cash was THAT impotant id be going back to music videos and docos.
So with the contract firmly in place and the client educated to the best of my abilities, these problems persist and THIS is the issue.

Noone is treated any differently apart from the delivery times and lack of communication after teh fact, however even with this, during the shooting schedule meetings, all clients are told that they WONT hear from me unless i need something or unless im on the last legs of the edit. I send updates every 12 weeks if i have the time.

Heres a story
To date, i have 1 client who i have waited upon for over 9 months (I kid u not) to get back to me regarding music. I have copped abuse and slanderous comments from them when in fact its ther obligation to provide me with as much information as possible. Even after copious emails, phone calls, and letters, i am still waiting and they got married in march last year... Thats just one example...
Now itsa conditional requirement of teh agreement to provide either a music CHOICE (including song title and artist) or the music itself. I wont accept Genre's or any choices THAT broad.

Anyway, At THAT time my turnaround was 3 months.. they would have it by June if they got their act together, but instead of doing that, i continue to wait and cop abuse from them... theyd rather complain as opposed to actually teling me what they want (which again, is all contracted and clearly explained to them prior to signing... and xplained again when we meet, and on teh day (i remind them) and every time the subject comes up)

Hell on my application forms, theres a place for them to fill in the gaps. its not that difficult to fill in the blanks.. but the tendencay to complain seems to be the dominating nature of the consumer as opposed to looking at what theyve agreed to do for me, so as i can service them.
Its a 2 way street.
Conditional requirements are just that. Conditions which need to be met prior to completing a specific task. For me, its info and music and if they do not meet those conditions, i cant do my work. Its that simple.
End of story, but thats jsut on example

Its a very difficult subject, and ive had my contracts rewritten by a professor of corporate law (whos the father of a friend of mine, so i saved thousands which was very lucky for me). I did this to ensure that i am protected and not put at risk by anyone.
And if it means that in the end, i have to throw the contract in their faces for me to protect my business interests, so be it.
Now some ppl may think that this is wrong, but the contract isnt there just for me. Its also for them to be assured of a quality product as it details specific requirements for each task as the task itself is basd on their production requests. This is a personalised service, so it has to be done this way.
From planning to shooting, to audio, to wireless microphone usage and sound checks even u get my drift. etc etc it all detaile for them to let me know of any specifics.

So what were left with is consumers who are driven by emotion and the mentality of "wantin the best for this one day" and this is totally understandable. But above all else, they also need to realise that theyre going into an agreement with a company which has tried to educate them on the way they do their business.
If they sign and believe that theyve been hard done by, they should have done what most clients do and read the agreement before signing.

only 5% of clients are this wacked out I say wacked out as most who DO complain are the ones that havent met their conditional requirements in the first place.

So from here.. who knows.. will it change?? no... of course not. Can we protet our business' Yes we can.. but only after learning "the hard way"

heres another one...
its 9pm on a saturday evening, winter is setting in so theres no shooting today, so im editing.
My phone rings (JUST NOW.. which is what has prompted me to write... ) and its a client who has recieved their wedding videos, however ahs replied with about 150 differnt "changes" none of which take away from the actual piece, but require a certain amount of work nonetheless.. now in my contract it clearly states 5 days to review the material to bring up any technical issues which may arise.. THIS client has had their video for over 7 weeks...

I mean what part of voicemail "we are open during Business hours monday to friday" dont people understand??
On the contract, what part of "5 days to review the product and list any technical issues which may arise"

ARGH!!!!!!!

Oh now get this, this SAME clients brother got married 2 weeks before this guy.. and his brother (i kid u not) called me on Xmas eve, Xmas and Boxing day to get their videos. Now their faiths are different to my own, but COME ON... Respect is a 2 way street and some people just dont understand the concept of it...

Im through being a nice guy

That's what I mean, Peter - that corporate job should not backburner the wedding jobs, be they big-ticket or budget. Que up the jobs in the order they came in the door and don't juggle the priorities around later based on the nature of the client. If the requirements of your corporate clients are such they need guaranteed priority service (and that may well be the case) then you need to decide whether you're a wedding videographer in the consumer market or a corporate videographer in the business market and drop out of the other market segment. But in the meanwhile, when a client of any sort comes in you should look at your present workload, give them an estimated delivery based on what you have in the que at the moment, and stick to it. Don't bump them down the list because someone "more important" comes in the door later. People who are current customers, who have signed a contract and given you a deposit, are more important than any new projects that come along regardless of who the new clients are - without exception. Jack & Jill BudgetWedding are no less important than Bob & Sally DeluxePackage are no less important Ford Motor's 2007 Australian ad campaign once you've accepted their money and made a comittment to them. If you want to give priority to Ford, don't accept the wedding bookings. (Or expand your operations and staff so you can do both at once).

There's a source of the problem, right there. They have a project that to them is very important and it's fallen off the edge of the earth, swallowed up by a black hole. Months pass with no word - that would drive me absolutely NUTS as a consumer! He has my money, has he absconded to South America, been hit by a truck, abducted by aliens? The customer is doing you a favour by giving you his business - you're not doing him the favour by accepting it. No personal offense intended but IMHO you're treating them very shabbily and showing them a great deal of disrespect by dealing with them in this way. "I don't have time" isn't an excuse - it takes an insignifigant time to make a phone call every few weeks or so or drop them a note or email with a status update and budgeting for it is just as much a part of the cost of doing business as is tape stock or camera repairs. People are actually quite understanding IF they are kept in the loop and constantly updated. I spent 15 years in airline customer service - people get a lot less upset at "That flight is delayed and will arrive at 1600" than they do at "That flight is delayed and we have no information yet on its arrival" and the same thing applies here.

You need to realize that you work for your retail customers - they do not work for you. They're your boss and you are here to service THEIR requirements, not the other way around. If you want to work in the consumer market, you must make the consumer's needs king and your meeting their needs more important than their meeting yours.

I disagree with Steve.

Before going out on my own as a "hybrid" I spent over 20 years working in higher end post houses eventually as a senior editor.

Many houses had various ways to handle lower budget clients. For supervised edits it was often called "2nd hold." You get the time and the great low rate IF the room is available.

Your job is to make a living first. You can't please any client if you can't pay the bills or your work yourself into exhaustion or burn out.

You do have to let those "2nd hold" clients know their status though. As I said, I always tell my wedding clients I do corporate work. They get a contract that reflects the delivery date based on the fact other work might come in. You need to be good with your estimates. As I said before if work seems to be piling up then target the raw video weddings to keep the income happening.

Potential wedding clients do shop around. There's a difference between the $5000 wedding video and the $2000 wedding video. Yes, some wedding clients don't know this. It is your job as a sales person to let them, in a positive way, what they're getting for the price. It might be simple editing with tasteful shooting. It might be spectacular editing but a long wait. If they present you a deadline they really want you charge them a rate that allows them the exclusive time. IMHO, as a hybrid, wedding videos pay a lower rate because you can flex the time. If the wedding takes a week to edit and they want it the following week then they're paying corporate rate.
The important thing is to be honest with your wedding clients and offer them perks for their patience.

"You need to realize that you work for your retail customers - they do not work for you. They're your boss and you are here to service THEIR requirements, not the other way around. If you want to work in the consumer market, you must make the consumer's needs king and your meeting their needs more important than their meeting yours."

I know you dont mean it to come out this way, but you sound as if you believe that i dont care about my wedding clients at all, which is not the case. THing to remember though is that although i provide a service, certain conditions need to be met. I have done what i could to for these particualr clients in retun all I ask for is information. Now this information is paramount to the work but in the end, if they dont provide how can i do the work?? Do i use my dicretion?? and what if they dont like my taste? do i allow them the freedom to get back to me 7 months later and ask for a re-edit..

No here in aus, the market is obviously very different to most. As Video is an afterthought.
Corporte clients allow prices to be what they are, the dicrimiatoin between the 2 is open to the client before they book. This is my point. The delivery times, again, is open to the client before they book.
THIS is my point..
the fact of the matter remains that despite what i do with regard to deliveries, they complain. Now if i was to Only service wedding clients, id be shootign myself in the foot, as for my own business the corp work is whatkeeps me afloat. Despite what peope think, the market is not big enough here to warrant boutique prices, even though id love to do one job a month at 5k a pop, its just NOT going to happen.. sure there are clietns that pay that much for a job, but that same 5k can be gotten with a corproate client in half teh time.. if i then ditch the weddings, im shooting the other foot as my regualr bread and butter work is gone.

Like i said, its a fine line, and as I mentioned, educating the clients and making sure they understand the business' position within the industry HERE, is what is done before they decide to go forward. 99% of people i meet book though. Hell i know companies which take over 18months to deliver... and they ONLY do weddings.. I hear what your saying about updates etc, however i have found that it causes more problems as the email ping pong continues.
Thing is when i do update the client, i advise them EXACTLY what were up to. I hide nothing and this is where the misconception of being hard done by arises, as you mentioned people believe youve taken off or whatever... but again, i hide nothing.. and thats my whole point.
Like i said, in the past, there havent been issues, recently though, people expect u to drop what theyre doing EVERY TIME they want something, which in the real world is not possible. Sure id love to sit and chat with them for 3 hours about their wedding video... but im not going to. Ill chat for half an hour or so, but 3 hours here for this client, 2 hours there for that one... etc etc and it keeps going, this time eats up and then things get further behind.
Its not just about Corp vs Weddings, its not about prioritising one division over the other. Its about the fact that people are advised of all this, agree to it, then do a backflip.
They KNOW that there are certain consitions of teh wedding services which have been openly discussed with them, then when it comes to actually dealing with those limitations, if they ever arise, they dont like it. But again, its all been said before and written in a contract.
And that again is my point here.. Most of the clients are good with all of this and to be honest, as i said, its only the ones that HAVENT done what THEYRE supposed to who are the ones to complain... when in turn, the ball is actually in their court for them to hit back to me, then when i get it, i have what i need to finish THEIR work. Theres no scamming here..
To most clients its Black and white and concise.. Ive had people commenting about me on bridal forums menttionng that im so detailed, they couldnt keep up with their notetaking. It wasnt a whinge, it wa a compliment as for THAT particualr thread on said forum they were talking about not knowing about services theyre paying for...
Either way, my clients understand what i do and how i do it, Its written for them to sign.
Its also teh only way for them to have my product, produced in the way i produce it, at the price i offer it.
But to the very few, well.... i'll just be repeating myself here if i keep going..

I think the biggest issue here with this thread is the actual point which is being made. Not the business model flaws, its not flawed when its done openly.
The business model works as it has done so in the past and it works with 99% of the clientelle who book. Theyre happy.. MORE than happy that they got a product of this calibre at that rate.

And that again is another point.. the client KNOWS that to get something like this elsewhere, theyd be going to a noob (for that price), or to someone who cant be trusted or who DOESNT offer a contract (youd be surprised),
They also know that to get something like this from another pro company theyd be paying at least 30 to 50 % more than what they do with me.
This again comes down to the fact that they know what the conditions are before they fork out any cash. But to them, they see theproduct vs $$ and toss up the conditions and then STILL go forward with me. Whos doing who a favour, who knows.. i see it as going both ways...

Whether its the money or the product which has pushed them who knows, they dont tell me.. but i do take note of their responses and for the most part, its about the work.. else they would have gone for a smaller package.
Hell if i DID charge more, i could hire someone else, but right now, thats not an option.

Peter, as per whacked out clients. I've had my fair share in my facility days and on my own. That's why we have contracts. If they get 5 days and that time expires, you're done. You can be nice about but it's now entirely your discretion.

My flat rate contracts (weddings for example) are paid in full at the time of the shoot. I do not give them an option for review. They certainly can communicate if they generally do/don't want something though (by phone/email) if something happened in the wedding they do/don't want in there. It's usually "make sure you show as much of my nephew and grandma as possible" or "please don't show drunk uncle John cursing." If you give them time for revisions you either have to charge for it or raise your rates accordingly. Yes, I've been asked about this while editing the wedding even though the contract says otherwise. I tell them why I can't do this. I do offer to sell them DVDs of the raw video if they think I might miss something. If they want to come in and supervise the edit I simply offer the same rate as any other supervised corporate edit.

I've had corporate clients play games with time too. You have to have a contract or hourly game plan for that too. In my corporate contracts I note the time includes revisions. They go beyond that, they pay extra. If it's past deadliine I me be on to the next job. If it's open ended they're paying hourly.

I shot one budget commercial which exemplifies how a handle a time situation. Contract included shoot and edit time. Before the edit they decided they wanted more shooting. I told them that was x dollars me. They skipped it. They wanted me to record a voice. I said fine, it's part of the edit. They sent me a voice over instead. HORRIBLE! recorded at 8bit 11khz on a cheap toy computer mic. I told them why it wasn't usable. The spot was never finished. I was paid in full at the time of the shoot. The contract specified the time alloted for the job for both shooting and editing. They didn't want to pay more and I wasn't giving away my services. They got nothing for their money and it was their own doing. Sometimes that happens. If they want to finish the spot with what they have they can schedule the time. They paid for it. But they're getting the time specified in the contract unless they want to buy more.

No, I understand that, but you *are* giving the impression that they are of lesser importance than your corporate clients because you delay their wedding edit when a corporate project comes in the door. I'm suggesting that they shouldn't be considered second class clients - the colour of their money is the same as that of your corporate clients and you should treat both client groups exactly the same, completing the edit on yesterday's wedding shoot before you start editing today's corporate shoot (assuming they signed their respective contracts with you in that same order) if you don't have the resources to work on both at once. IMHO, in general, scheduling the editing of a wedding project and of a corporate project should be done no differently than scheduling the editing of two different corporate projects you may happen to have in-house at the same time. Of course emergencies might arise that require you to deviate from that from time to time but I think that first-in, first-out should be the general rule irrespective of the nature of the client.

LOL - thinking about unrealistic client expectations ... the episode of "CSI" ("Crime Scene Investigation" - do you have it there in Oz?) that aired here in North America last week began with a murder occurring at a wedding. The victim, the groom's mother, was found tied to the rear bumper of the bridal couple's car and dragging behind as they drove out to start their honeymoon. Within 12 hours the wedding videographer was able to deliver the completed, fully edited, wedding DVD, complete with photo of the happy couple printed on the disk, to the investigators at the crime lab for their review. Wonder how many wedding clients will now think that's what they should expect?

Be fair Steve... How was the quality of the edit on that 24 hour turnaround? Just because Hollywood can do it, doesn't mean anything. After all, I'm still waiting for my flying car!