Well-said Pete. I couldn't agree more.

Those who believe that they know it all, or that they can learn it all from their own experience just because it is "art" indeed have a lot to learn. I wish them luck, because they will need it more than most.

Becoming a successful filmmaker requires much more than being a talented artist. It requires significant technical skills, people skills, and business skills. The wise realize that much is to be learned from the masters, whether the master is currently active in his/her profession, or have dedicated him/herself to being a teacher. The key is finding the best "master" to mentor you.

I think there is a difference in attitude depending on whether film education is seen as 'professional development' versus 'scholarly learning'. It is also a difference in maturity.

I've never stopped taking courses even though it's been nearly ten years since I went to university as an undergrad. Does this mean that I like sitting in a lecture theatre lapping up wisdom from someone who more credentials than me?

No. Learning even in that sort of environment involves a lot more than that. It is a two-way dialogue. I take a course because I want to add to my knowledge and want to be around others who are seeking knowledge. I want to add to my own skillset. Different from when I did my undergrad degree, I am picking and choosing what courses to take purely on the basis of adding to my skillset. My attitude going in is that this course *must* add to my knowledge or skillset or it is a waste of time. It is not a requirement, it is something I've chosen to do. I am paying my own fees and I can walk out or demand a refund if I want.

So if I don't like a certain teacher, I vote with my feet. If I was mislead about the content, I complain. But when I know this is the course for me, I make it my own whether in study groups or in interacting with the teacher and with other students. I do this so I get full value out of the money I paid for it.

If I think I can develop certain skills or gain knowledge on my own, certainly I won't take the course. But to me it is not an either/or proposition. Buying my XL1S was an excellent self-education. During that time I took lots of courses. I also bought or borrowed books. Continued watching film. Read scripts. All of it was learning.

Your whole life learning should be seen as self-directed. People who complain at the end of the course have wasted everyone's time and their own money. As a lifelong student as soon as one gets away from the high school attitude the better.

As for getting marked. In many continuing education courses now I see that marking is optional. I like seeing how I'm marked so I always opt to be marked by the teacher. Why? Because I see the teacher as a peer and want to know their opinion. But almost all the courses are pass/fail so I'm free to disagree or agree or even discuss the mark with the teacher. Of course in a technical program marking should be required (for example, any industrial trades course). No one really cares what your grades were like after you graduated, only that you took part (certification). If you failed a course then there were probably a lot more serious factors involved than a poor teacher.

It ceases to amaze me how fast what is said can become misconstrued or ignored on message boards.
Yes, art is subjective.
Yes, learning is fundamental and very important.
My problem is the fact that student get graded based on that subjectivity.
If a teacher at yoru school doesnt like your lighting you get an F... but at another school its something diffrent or the teacher just happens to like it for some reason then you get an A.
Thats what i dont appreciate. There is no set standards for teachers to grade by. Its all depends on their mood and personality. Grading objectively as a teacher of art does not seem possible. Thats how it looks to me as a student.
Maybe now what i have been saying will make more sence.
Thanks for your time,
Nevin

Yes, let's have those rules broken, but let's figure out which rules to break first. This is all very well talking about ART, and SUBJECTIVITY, but in this 10th anniversary year of Dogme95, lets get down to brass tacks.

Here are some of the rules I see my students adhering to with depressing regularity that I would like to see broken.

Basic equipment use:

1. Always use the auto features, especially for exposure and focus. Remember the camera knows better than you. You can always tell if you're getting good image by checking out the little flip out LCD screen, THE most accurate and reliable form of monitoring known to man!
2. Zebra stripes. Are. For. PUSSIES.
3. Always use the camera microphone - it's there for a reason. If you simply MUST use a separate microphone try to negate its effect by keeping it as close to the camera as possible.
4. Don't use headphones to check your sound. It'll only depress you unnecessarily. As a student you've got enough to worry about.

Composition and camera style.

1. Three words: ZOOM, ZOOM and ZOOM. Why waste tedious time on set and in the editing by cutting between close ups and mid/wide shots when this can all be achieved in camera.
2. Always keep the camera at eye level. The camera operator's eye level that is, when standing up. Citizen Kane is considered the greatest film ever made and this is almost definitely because in every shot, the camera is exactly 5ft 4 in above the floor. Every shot, just check it out.
3. Always remember, cinema is a 2 dimensional art form, like painting, stained glass windows and writing your name in the snow in piss. Try to avoid any sort of dynamic composition in space or movement towards or away from the camera. It will only annoy the audience when they realise the characters on screen aren't really getting closer or further away.
4. Handheld IS the preferred mode, but if you ARE using a tripod, try to avoid EVER changing the framing by panning and tilting. Anything between a tight lock down* or shaky handheld is verboten!
   (*the obvious exception to this is zooming.)
5. If a scene is meant to be dark, it must be uniformly dark across the whole image; areas of contrast are not permitted.
6. Try to ensure dark shadows in the actors' eyes so their eyes cannot be seen, like Marlon Brando in The Godfather. This is doubly important for comedies.
7. Lighting tests are totally pointless, expecially as the above effect is quite easy to achieve on the day without much work.

Script writing and storytelling:

1. Documentaries don't have interesting stories. They are simply exercises invented by government funded TV channels and unhappy film school teachers to punish the rest of the world, and should be treated as such.
2. When undertaking an enforced documentary project, it should not be planned or researched; you should simply film everything and sort it out in editing.
3. You will NEVER find a better subject for a documentary subject than your flatmate who is probably a part time DJ/Skateboarder/in a band/in a sports-team/has his or her own car. Your film lecturers will possibly feel otherwise but they are trying to make you BREAK THE RULES!
4. For fiction projects: DO NOT dilute the purity of your script by doing second, third or subsequent drafts. Every decent script every made into a film was written in _one_ go and usually half an hour before it was due to be handed in, Including Chinatown, Pulp Fiction and Bloodsport II. Everyone knows this!
5. If circumstances force rewrites, try not to share your rewrites with the rest of the crew, spontaneity will be maintained if they find out about script changes AS they actually shoot the scene.
6. As in documentary, so in fiction - your flatmates are almost certain to be the best actors you could ever hope to find (unless they are drama students). Anyone who has ever watched Scarface from beginning to end more than once is a potential Al Pacino. Do not cast ANYONE over the age of 22.
7. Godard almost said it best: "all you need for a film is a girl and a gun", but although the first half of his name IS "God" he was wrong on this, as he should have said "All you need for a film is a girl OR a gun". However if choosing the "girl" route, do make sure that she is beaten/raped/murdered by the end of the film.

Post-production:

1. Once the script is finished, any deviation in the post-production stage is strictly disallowed. If it was written that way, it has to be edited that way, no matter what those rule breakin' types might feel.
2. Writer/Directors ALWAYS make the best editors.
3. try to use every shot you took in some form or another. Wasted camera angles are a major contribution to global climate change.
4. No-one EVER complained that a student film was too long. Ever. The best way to prepare for a career in Feature films is to be able to make the audience believe your 15 minute film was actually 90 minutes long.
5. Doing a good sound mix must ALWAYS take second place to making sure you have nice interesting end credits.
6. Credits don't count in the films' total running time, so take this advantage to extend the film with funny outtakes of you cast forgetting lines and falling over, or the crew messing about (pulling faces, mooning and blow job gags are mandatory). This sort of stuff is ESPECIALLY funny to complete strangers who don't know any of the cast or crew, particularly if the proceeding film was not a comedy.
7. When it all goes wrong in the end and a lecturer asks you why, simply remember, it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault.

And finally, never forget... What your teachers tell you in lectures is already more than you'll EVER need to know, so never do any independent research or read up on a particular area - it's all a total waste of time. No-one ever learnt anything reading a book.

This is good stuff!

heath

That was brilliant, Dylan. But you must be an old bitter fogie who is just takin' it out on those rebels who would be the next Tarantinos if only they could get past your class.

This is my favourite and also the most depressing. When you have a forty-year old director yelling for "more titties" you wonder just why you are on set if not satisfying some immature fantasy.

Dylan,

I think you've got the perfect script for a documentary on student filmmaking.

But don't be surprised when you find someone quoting you on proper filmmaking. <bg> You obviously have too much time on your hands. <g>

I had one student who never focused and, though we allow people final cut, when everyone, students, teachers and regular people, told the student to cut the film from 30 minutes to at least 20, the student scoffed.

heath

ive never followed a formula to makeing short films. i usually just go with whatever looks good to me.

I aint bitter, more annoyed, and too frequently disappointed. I'm 33 so not a fogey yet and I do have very good students too. I'd be proud for my class to produce the next Tarantino - hell, I'd be happy with the the next Raja Gosnell!

I'm happy for students to "break the rules", I'm just annoyed when they don't care about what they film. especially those that have CHOSEN to do video production.

The "woman being attacked" one is pretty depressing, as every time a group suggests this storyline, they start by saying "We've decided to do something a bit different" and then outline the same cliches: girl wandering home alone, the attacker's POV, girl runs away, finds somewhere safe, and just when she thinks she's got away the attacker catches her. Why can't my students aspire to break THAT narrative convention!

"Breaking rules" is great if you want to create something daring and innovative, but not when it's out of out of laziness and lack of imagination.

The main problem I have with the title for this thread is it's a negative statement mascarading as a positive one, and it's essentially meaningless and empty.

How about if the title was "Advice to Student Filmmakers -- Do something different: creative, original and unexpected".

Nevin, I see your problem and it may be a valid one, but frankly if that's the way you're assessed then you have poor teachers. I do NOT assess lighting (for example) on personal taste. I dislike that high gloss, Advertising/Michael-Bay-film cinematography, but if a student managed to replicate that style for a project, he or she would get very good marks because it demonstrates particular skill, but also taken into account is the amount of planning or preparation a student does. You get marks for lots of research, (ploughing through copies of American Cinematographer, or the many good books on film/video lighting), preparation, doing tests, working out an appropriate look for the film, finding photos and paintings as references, etc.

In the end it's irrelevent because if the students do really good work, they'll have great showreels and practical experience, and they'll realise the good/bad grades they got aren't so important, and they'll find people in the professional world are so much more subjective and judgemental than their teachers ever were.

Well, that made my day. I just had a chance to read your synopsis of the student film making handbook, Dylan, and well I almost crapped my self. That was great.

I enjoy the fact that you single handedly pointed out most, if not everything, that pisses me off about people.

Though, after reading that, it got me thinking more carefully about this topic.
When push comes to shove, what are great movies? (films, documentaries, whatever you want to call them...)

You've got your titanics and other cult classics, blah blah blah, but i'd like to know what most of you all concider great movies "great movies," and why?

I'm sure it will offer a great introspective view of this topic it self, and how things are so subjective.

So, what's your favorite movie and why?

Thanks,

Nevin

p.s. if this is the wrong forum for this... oops

Nevin, that's probably worth a different thread.

There already is a favorite movie thread on this board:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=35751

And a thread about inspiration:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=16013

And a favorite trailers thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=39119

Please contribute to those instead of in this thread or starting a new one. Thanks!

Thanks, Rob (and your 10,000 posts).

heath