You guys are talking $5000 for a feature? Jeez, I'm spending that on a short (and nobody's getting paid)! methinks someone has to have a serious conversation about my budgeting...
... seriously, willing to discuss specifics in email.

Private email me, if you'd like. I can say one thing...you can go a long way with discounts and free gear, plus affordable or free labor. Besides, I'm going from $15,000 to $150,000 on my next feature, mostly because of what's in the script (comic book adaptation vs. indie comedy/drama).

heath

The number 1 rule of any kind of filmmaking is that the costs will expand to fully eat whatever budget you come up with.

If you have $150,000 to shoot a three minute short, you'll somehow find a way to spend the whole $150,000.

It's all relative, too. If I had $250,000 to put into a feature, for example, I would make a feature. Some people I know would use that $250K to make actor offers and the like on the hopes of raising $5 million or so, largely because they don't believe a true film can be made for under $5 million.

It also depends on how you budget and what equipment you have available. I shot a 85-minute feature where the only out-of-pocket costs were a few DV tapes and a couple of lunches. Because I already owned all the equipment I used, it was cheap, but only because I had made some large investments in equipment earlier.

So depending on what you had to work with (and all sorts of other factors), $5,000 may or may not be the "right" amount for a short.

those that have produced 5-10k features ...
where are they now ...
what kind of milage did you get out of them ( as in help you as film maker , or you got work out of it, got a agent etc

We've produced two 5-10k features, the way i see it there are so many other aspects to making a film other than the creative ones, essentially a cheap feature needs the same things as a big feature ie actors ,locations ,props ,transport ,food ,crew and time to shoot etc and with both there will be unexpected things that happen that you need to fix.

In my opinion The benefit of making a low budget feature is learning how to manage all aspects of a production that way if someone ever throws you money you have the knowlege and skills you learned on your little feature, the skills are the same except on a bigger scale. That doesnt mean to say that nothing unexpected and scary will happen but it does give you a much more informed idea of what you need to do and allow you to anticipate problems.

So where are we now you ask....we are no further forward in becoming rich or famous other than the fact we have a MUCH better idea of how to make a feature film. We are writing a new script and have shot a 4 min scene from the script in order to try and attract a real budget this time.

Its small steps but you have to make them if you want any kind of a chance in real indie filmmaking, hey we're still young so who knows.

Andy.

My first two features didn't make it to the $5,000 threshold, but both were very valuable to me.

First, they helped me learn filmmaking. There's no substitute for doing. You can read all the books and study all the movies and hear all the stories and you still really don't know what making a movie is like until you make a movie. So there was that aspect of it.

Secondly, seeing my script on screen helped my writing tremendously, which has, no doubt, been a factor in my now being a professional, paid screenwriter and WGA member.

Thirdly, having previous work to show people allayed their fears and helped open their wallets when I wanted to make something that cost a little bit more money. It made me less of an unknown quantity. I don't think I could've made a more expensive feature had I not had those previous features to show as examples.

Finally, they helped me make connections to others. Though nobody was anybody when I started making the first feature, several actors, crew and people the actors and crew know have progressed in the business since then. I've been writing a project now that I wouldn't have even known about it not for an actor I met on my first flick knowing a producer who was looking for someone to write a screenplay for her.

So, I think those first two features did a lot for me, even though neither one of them achieved any distribution or direct revenues on their own.

Ryan,

Ultimately, that's the best thing a microbudgeted movie can do: teach skills, lessons, etc., without losing one's shirt. Great to hear!

heath

Most of the money that grants will get us will probably be in equptment and stuff, at least, thats what were hoping for. $150,000! Nice.

Grants are a tough issue; I've had friends apply, and they didn't set a specific criteria or demographic. For instance, a lot of grants are for movies with messages, like, don't do drugs, rights, etc.

Plus, most of us AREN'T non-profits, and I can tell you it's a slippery slope to try and be for-profit and take donations, etc.

Heath

it's worth checking out Shane Meadows work, Deadmans shoes and his super low budget feature Le Donk which he shot in 5days on two z1's still cost 25grand though!

I'd suggest take your 5grand and make 5 shorts if I were you

For a no budged film) -- You can only hope to get really good actors that are engaging enough to hold peoples attention for a feature length film and a story that is worth watching.

I have tried this very thing, and failed.

Technically you wont be able to compete with Hollywood, so don't try that approach. Do the best you can but be practical. And Get as much help as you can. Worry most about the actors and the story and try to get other people on the technical side if possible. This is your best approach.

The two biggest rules I'd say about making micro-budgeted films is to have a great script, and to be extremely organized before, during and after the shoot. Discipline is key.

I can tell you, while I did hang out with friends, I was the one guy who would be at home working on his script on his days off, while everyone else was having a good time. Do I regret it? No, but I do wish I'd spent more of my free time relaxing.

Filmmaking is hard no matter what, esp. at the low budget level. But the rewards are tremendous. A screenwriter friend of mine once commended my freedom while writing and shooting, while his scripts were getting butchered in re-writes by highly paid script doctors.

heath

Thats a good point-- i know some people who can healp with the technical side of things. were probably shooting not this, but nex summer, which gives us allot of time to work on the script and secure actors.

One more thing: Great marketing skills, so you can sell your movie and yourself as a filmmaker.

Heath

I just think this is really great advice, and maybe even a little understated. There are so many shorts where people have worked hard trying to create effects and heavily supported camera moves that just aren't going to compete with a Hollywood production.

Think of "Open Water". It wasn't as low budget as what you're doing, but the concept is along Tyson's line of thinking. No big crane shots, or "sky replacement" done in post. Just a straight forward story that managed to captivate viewers. That has to be one of the most successful indie films ever. One thing they did really well in "Open Water" is they used the setting totally to their advantage. The fact that almost all the action takes place out in the water meant no fancy lighting, massive cranes or dollies, just POV camera work (I thought it was a brilliant strategy, and almost drove myself crazy trying to think of a similar scenerio... lost in the desert, a snowstorm, trapped in a mine, pinned under the rubble of the Twin Towers...) Just thought it was very "outside the box" thinking, and it really paid off.

To see how a small budget film can work you should see "Once". OK it cost 150k Euros, but the important reason why it worked was the audience bought into the two main characters and I hear the leading man wasn't the first choice. By chance, (which can be the case) the casting worked.

If your budget is only $5,000, you're going to have to bring your actors into the creative process (because you can't pay them, so they'll be investors) and create an original piece with an on screen chemistry.

You can't really just clone something that has been successful, the audience will have moved on by the time your film is completed. To stand out, your film really has to be different.

I think a feature can be made for really any price, 5K included but it requires two things:
A) A great (not good, great) screenplay, that can get people excited about it and WANT to tell the story contained therein. Which leads to :

B) Instilling the day to day (or month to month depending on your availability to shoot) passion for the cast, crew, and most importantly yourself. What you may not have in the ways of Fischer dollies, 35mm packages and huge lights, you can replace with passion. That will make the story pop, and the audience can forgive it not looking glossy and big budget. Of course, to trained eyes, that pizzaz will be lacking, but again, have a great story.

Thanks, Great advice!

Keep working on the script until it's great.
Then sell the script.
Get permission to come visit the set during filming.

Ala Robert Rodriguez, shoot film but no sound. Have it be great. Get a studio to do the sound and bring the film to market for several hundered thousand dollars. But 8 mm probably won't go any where.

With 8mm make a short and impress somebody with it. Don't spend any money. If you can't convince people to give you all the money you need to make an 8mm short, you probably can't tell enough "stories" to make it in the movie business.

Out of curiosity, how much does film and processing cost to shoot enough for an 8mm feature? Are you going to cut the film yourself?

Over and out.

tri-ex B/W Reversal stock 2.5 minutes (50 ft/18 fps)
Stock: $15
Developing: $15
Telecine: ~$10-$15

So, $45 for every 2 1/2 minutes of film shot and developed. Shooting Reversal to save the cost of a positive print. Edited in the computer...otherwise there's more development and stock costs.

Feature film = 90 minutes
Shooting ratio 1:1 (not probable)
36 Reels, $1620

Shooting ratio of 4:1 (more realistic)
144 Reels, $6480

If you go through Pro 8mm, it's around $12,000 to do a feature. Stick with digital.

Heath

Blimey, for that kind of money you could start to consider shooting on 16mm!

What? Why not? Since when? There is absolutely no reason why Daniel can't shoot on Super-8, and it might in fact be a very good idea, depending on the content and/or Daniel's comfort level with that particular medium. Whether he can afford to do so for $5,000 is a slightly different issue.

Daniel, as for your original question, it's going to be very hard for anyone here to answer it unless we have a much more clear idea of what you're trying to accomplish and how you hope to accomplish it. It's probably just too big a question for anyone to answer on an internet forum.

That said, there's no reason why you can't make a very good movie for $5,000--or less--if you're determined to find creative solutions to your problems, if you have good ideas, and find ways to express them well. It sounds like a cheesy Mr. Rogers self-esteem pep talk to say this, but it's true: you can do anything you want if you do it the right way. What the "right way" for you personally might be is something you have to figure out for yourself. You may not figure out what it is on this project--it takes a long time to "find your own path" sometimes--but if you stay determined and stick to it, you'll find it.

My name is Corwin, not Daniel, but no worries, not a big deal. I think were pretty convinced that we will be shooting on hd, maybe with some key scenes on 16mm. I definitly agree with you on the good ideas thing. Were going to spend most of this comming year developing and re-writing our script, and getting people interested. then from that december untill summer, we will get all of the resorces together. Thanks for the responce,

-Corwin

mixing 16mm into the HD footage will generally be dissapointing. better to shoot HD and use the filters to match the look in post, or just do the same thing in AE with stacking the clip over itself in AE with apply modes and built in AE filters. you can get some great looks this way.

as for the budget, you'll spent $5k just feeding and transporting people. have bad food and its the fastest way to lose you crew because it shows total disrespect to them and lack of value. always have good food for the crew.

don't use cheap tape stock or you'll get burned ! get prograde tape, but get it online at a better price.

2 Tota lights ? I don't think so. they are fine for kicking open a background, especially at night, or behind a silk or in a chimera, but they are really flat hard lights. nothing you want to use on foreground elements like actors unless you **really** know lighting, placement, and light modifiers otherwise it will look pretty bad.

realistically, you need 15-20K to do what you want, and thats being super cheap.I've spent 10-20K in a single day of shooting, and that was keeping it bare for the size of the project, so really, good luck, but I hope you have an additional $10k in reserve you can spend, because you will

What kinds of Tapes, Spesificly?

Corwin: I'd consider shooting entirely on the Canon XH A1 - film processing is EXPENSIVE.

I know this post is old, but for the sake of archiving it for newbies I'll answer it:

The question posed really can't be answered because recording equipment is usually only a fraction of the total budget. What kind of props do you have, do you need to buy any costumes, do you need to pay for any locations, what kind of catering will you have, what are your fuel cost, is there a special effects budget? All of these production related questions are so important that they will actually dictate which camera (and therefore format) that you can shoot with.

True about the last post. My feature was originally estimated for $8000.00 (I have the equipment and was going to shoot it myself). It ended up costing us close to $70,000 (money paid for by myself and some investors) because we increased the production value (SAG feature, professional DP and crew, cranes, dolly's, paid everyone, etc) and we still had an extremely small crew. The film looks far better than I could have done by myself and the entire experience was great (we had a total of 29 shooting days during the course of the year). I'm really glad I ended up going this route. Sure, it cost a heck of a lot more than I thought but the end product is what it's all about.

Definitely don't shoot the whole thing on 8mm as film is not economical at this scale; the money is much better spent elsewhere. However, shooting one scene or two on film, such as the opener, is a great way to be exposed to the medium.

I don't care what anyone says, you can shoot a feature for $5 if you are creative enough and have proximity to other talented individuals. Of course, the quality and more importantly, consistency, of your final product is much less guaranteed when you rely on volunteers.

For this level of budget, audio is far more important than video. Get a boom pole, a decent mic, and a good set of headphones. Make sure there is sufficient light in each scene, but do not worry about what most people would call cinematography. Stick to talking heads and keep the experimental shots few and far between.

Ask people to work for free, ask places to donate food and supplies, and play your student card as much as possible. Dress in slacks and be clean-shaven when you do this.

There's a lot that you won't learn from a book, so my best advice is to overprepare and adapt. And have one vision.

Good points, thanks.

Corwin, I admire your tenacity on this. I find folks in the Indie world chip in and help one another, and I bet you might scrounge up some pretty good equipment and folks to help use it for parts of your shoot. HDV media is cheap, but film (super16 for example) could add some wow factor in some scenes if they needed the stuff film has over HDV at the moment. You would not need a lot of Super16 telecine used that way.

I hope you have storyboarded your film and are having some luck, finding actors. I could give you a couple names depending on your needs. Let us know your schedule, you might find more hands and free equipment that you imagine here in Northern Ca.

See www.spectre-movie.com for an example of what I am talking about. All shot in HDV using borrowed equipment with volunteer labor.

I briefly responded on this before but as its been on my mind ...I made 2 attempts on a micro budget feature.
I tried doing a B&W silent movie around 91(shot some stop motion test footage for it) and in 2004 started work on a very very ambitious project that I had budgeted around $20 000-30 000 CAN.
I had a prop fx background so I saved a huge amount of money but after 3 years worked myself to near insanity without even having shot anything. I had it storyboarded in colour, shot list, script breakdown--planned to shoot a 3 scene demo. Very simple recruitment failures ultimately forced me to shelve it although I continue to work on it as a CG based project.

But-I cant give up on the micro budget feature idea. I KNOW it can be done. It has been done. For me the major attraction is to see how high i can get production values and make it watchable on a shoestring.


Now I am thinking in terms of crafting a story based around a single location or two and seeing how dramatic or suspenseful I can make the scenario, and budgeting it around the most important aspects(including paying the actors as someone else mentioned).

Improvising and being creative with little resources can be rewarding in itself-even if you dont get to make it(but its better when you do :) , as it is an amazing creative brain challenge. Edit: I remember seeing a setup someone had done where he made the passenger section of an airplane in his living room-f***ing brilliant! Very inspiring.

When I started out in 16mm it was ultimate rush to load up some animation footage that I had just had processed and run it on my rickety projector. I once did a Harryhausen-like skeleton with animated fire around it--took me a month to do a three second shot but it was worth it when I got the film back.


I am leaning towards buying my first digi camera next year(although I just bought my first still digi cam-A Canon Powershot SX100-havent tried the video yet) and being a one man crew if I have to(although along the way of my last attempt someone told me that if i didnt have help by the time I got to shooting I would hate it and it was very true-I really did come to hate it, now I have warm feelings towards it again).

I am stubborn and would probably attempt to rig a one man band type of set up before I died of exhaustion.

Feature for $5000
 

I speak as an ultra low-budget producer and offer these thoughts for you to consider.

1. Watch your back and protect yourself. The larger your production gets, the more you NEED production insurance. In fact, if you are filming a feature you need insurance. Period. It is not expensive and might save you a lifetime of troubles. Producing and directing is rewarding, but remember YOU will be the one responsible for the misdeeds or accidents of your cast and crew.

Ditto for putting the proper paperwork, releases and clearances in place. If nothing else, going through the "right" technique here prepares you for a bigger projects, perhaps eventually ones with serious money put up by serious people. Doing the rigging right now, means you will be ready later.

2. Be clear about your personal objectives. Why are you doing this? What do you want to accomplish? In my opinion, it is quite appropriate to do a movie for practice or for "fun." The more of these you do, the better you will get. Better that you do ten $5,000 features than one at $50,000. Further, you may find that different features will have different objectives.

3. Part of the fun in producing is learning how the Hollywood pros do it, but also having the confidence to reject their methods when they are inappropriate for a micro budget picture. It is a topic for another time, but the traditionally formatted script is wholly inappropriate for low-budget shooting: It obscures story beats, camera angles and timing. Scripts have other faults, too but I won't go into that now. But you may well find that much filmmaking orthodoxy is best examined in light of your objectives--even your choice of SD vs HD vs 8mm vs ?

4. I have budgeted many times and here is what I have found. Ultimately, the budget is driven by production days. And production days are a function principally of two variables: number of locations and the square of crew+cast size. In other words cutting cast and crew by 50% cuts your cost by 75%. Cutting the number of locations by 50% yields a 50% reduction. The reason for this is that increasing the size of the cast and crew slows production, impedes communication, and adds to the mouths to feed. Past about 15 or 20 people, you need to add people just to feed and manage them.

Locations involve travel time, mix ups, and scheduling problems. This means you should write/rewrite the script to use as few locations as possible. One way to make this artistically practical is to select one or more "super locations" that provide you with multiple sets. If the company move is from the barn to the patio, that is easy and fast to accomplish, whereas driving across town might take half a day to get the team going again.

5. Have a good Assistant Director. In my process, this person stays by my side and helps me with the shot list and helps with organizational things as necessary. I can't imagine functioning on a feature or short without an A/D.

Good Luck

great stuff man, thanks!

This is a great thread. Thank you to all who contributed.

Great advice, Scott. I hired an AD two years ago, on the first day of production, and was very happy I did so. I just wish I hired her much sooner, during pre-production. I made sure she was onboard during pre-pro on a film I just co-produced.

heath

Hey Corwin,
Since this thread has been kept alive for over a year, I was curious, where are you currently standing with the project?

Well the guy I was planing to do this film with kindof fell out, so i didnt follow through with the drafts of the scrips. Over the year i have worked on a couple film sets, and made many short films. I have been exploring all aspects of filmmaking, and found that cinematography resonates the most with me. I have abandoned that original project, and am currently looking for a good script and someone at my school willing to direct, and help me construct a film!

Corwin,

Glad you found your niche in the industry, and I'm sure you're going to shoot some killer films! Good luck!

heath