Three Kings Look?
 

While we are on the subject of filmlook. Anyone here ever tried mimicking the bleach of Three Kings?

I do know that it was done in post during processing (silver removed, yeah, yeah...).

My question is, has anyone tried this with DV (specifically XL1s). Are there any 'in camera' techniques as well as what to do in post?

while I've never actively tried to do it (yet) I'm giving it a shot in the next couple of weeks with my xl1 (no s). I believe in the three kings the particular shot you're talking about was doneby a film stock not so much a process, I think the film stock was called ecktochrome but I'm not positive. As far as shooting goes I'm going to use a polarizer to really make the sky blueusing a very wide open iris (2.4, 1.8) hopefully this will add to the bleach effect and compensate for the f-stop loss by the pola. I also plan on shooting at a high shutter rate between that and the pola it will probably be more dark then I like so I'm going to have to pull some of the luminence out. in post but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Nick - you're going about it in the right way. Three Kings was shot raw with polarizer, with the warmer/burnt colours added in post. I expect you'll be satisfied with the results from what you're planning.

I would be very interested in the results you achieve. If you will, please let me (us) know how it turns out. I'd love to see the images.

I think with DV it is good to use these methods as opposed to making your 'film' look like DANCES WITH WOLVES filmwise we can use tricks too make them look more like Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ryan, Three Kings, etc. These stylized looking films may not have been 'acceptable' 10 years ago, but now they seem the norm.

Let us know and good luck.

Parts of "Three Kings" were shot on Ektachrome reversal and then cross-processed, weren't they? I'm sure there's an American Cinematographer article about this somewhere.

I don't have the DVD here but I remember they talked about the process on the commentary track, you may want to check it out. I'm pretty sure it was the combination of Ektachrome + color timing in post.

Maybe this will help you blokes understand the effect. Its stated as an effect caused by bleach process:

"Director David Russell purposely separated the film’s visual style into three distinct sections to evoke the varying tone of the story line...
Russell consulted with cinematographer Newton Thomas Sigel to arrive at a visual technique to express this sense of dislocation. "David and I decided that the beginning of the film, when the war has just ended, should have a kind of colorless hard edge to it, like a documentary of the war we all saw," says Sigel."
"I also wanted this to symbolize the soldiers’ disenchantment with the end of the war," says Russell.

Sigel explains, "For this we used a process called bleach bypass, where you skip a bleach process in the developing of the film so it leaves a layer of silver on the negative."

taken from website -
http://www.workprint.net/prodnotes/threekingsprod.html

It seems that the same process of this Ektachrome film stock used in Three Kings was also used in X-Men for effect:


"As he had on both Fallen and Three Kings, Sigel used the unique look of cross-processed Ektachrome reversal film for another X-Men flashback, this time to represent the anguish of Wolverine’s nightmarish past. "Wolverine has a recurring nightmare based on what happened to him at a secret military lab," Sigel describes. "He doesn’t remember exactly what happened beyond a few fragments, so I wanted to photograph the sequence in a way that represented that feeling."

Toward that end, Sigel shot the scene with Kodak’s 5285, a reversal stock he actually had a hand in bringing to the market. "I’d previously used bulk loads of various still-photography films in doing this kind of work, including Kodak’s Ektachrome Professional Plus. But for Three Kings, I knew we were going to do a huge chunk of the film with it—the entire second act—so I asked Kodak to make us 1,000-foot loads of Ektachrome with edge-coding and Bell & Howell perfs. They were very hesitant to do it, but we ended up shooting 200,000 feet of it, so they were happy in the end. They decided that there was a market for the stock, and they now offer an advancement of it called 5285."

The cinematographer wanted Wolverine to appear hot and feverish in the sequence, so he overexposed by about a stop, bringing out hot highlights along the character’s body. However, the cameraman notes that because of the 85’s dangerously low latitude, over- or underexposure can only be done with extreme judiciousness. "The stock has such a very narrow range that I’d always recommend someone do tests before using this technique," he notes, "but I’ve used it quite a lot. The 85 is daylight-balanced, so using HMIs or daylight will give you the most ’normal’ effect, even with the cross-processing. How far you want to shift away from that is up to you. You can to it with the color temperature of your lights or with your production design, because certain colors will really pop."

sorry the last notes can be found at : http://www.theasc.com/magazine/july00/suspense/pg2.htm

I recall that parts of the film were shot with 85 processed as reversal, and some other parts were shot with cross-processed 85. It's a really cool stock, I shot a bunch of promos/bumpers for HBO Latino that have run inbetween their programs for the past couple of years--mostly available light street scenes using the Kodachrome, and the color rendition is really punchy.

Doesn't really help the 'film look' process. Anyone have any ideas on HOW WE CAN DO IT?

supply a still of the cross processing Look you want ( 3 king ) and i'll give it a try next week ...


the skip bleach process .. vegas users start here and adjust to your liking .
put clip on video track 2 ..then make copy of it on track 1 .. track 1 make B&W i prefer channel blend FX using distribute red channel for B&W -- now use color curves and crush the blacks only .. make sure track 1 level remains at 100

solo video track 2 - use color curves fx to crush the blacks & bring up mid range gamma - can fine tune this later .. unsolo track 2

video track 1 switch compositing mode to OVERLAY ( you cannot solo track 1 as it will be black if you do)

video track 2 adjust mid range gamma using color curves FX. add color correction FX , back down color saturation 30-60% ( to your liking ) ..

now put track 1 compositing mode back to ALPHA .. solor track 1, add film grain FX to track 1 adjust more then you like ... now un-solo track 1 and put compositing back compositing mode to OVERLAY ..

if clip is too contrasty you can use the LEVELS on track 1 to flatten ...

skip bleach look is higher contrast, less color saturation & more grain...

<<I think with DV it is good to use these methods as opposed to making your 'film' look like DANCES WITH WOLVES filmwise we can make them look more like Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ryan, Three Kings, etc.>>

John,

The "look" of Dances with Wolves" wasn't so much a "trend" decision as it was a "style" decision. Costner and crew took one look at the sea of yellow grass where they intended to film and knew right away that that would set the warmth and color scheme for the entire film. Besides, it's a romance/adventure genre film and should be warmer than a military satire/drama.

Instead of mimicking the look of certain films such as The Matrix, Black Hawk Down, etc. because it looks cool and is trendy, we should decide what look best complements the story.

Digital Film Tools features a very reasonably-priced set of AE and Final Cut Pro plug-in's called "55M". Among them is a "bleach bypass" filter that, I believe, simulates the process you're looking for.

I spotted these filters in the Sep 03 issue of American Cinematographer, downloaded and bought them. It's a good set well worth a look.

<<<-- Originally posted by John Locke : <<I think with DV it is good to use these methods as opposed to making your 'film' look like DANCES WITH WOLVES filmwise we can make them look more like Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ryan, Three Kings, etc.>>

John,

The "look" of Dances with Wolves" wasn't so much a "trend" decision as it was a "style" decision. Costner and crew took one look at the sea of yellow grass where they intended to film and knew right away that that would set the warmth and color scheme for the entire film. Besides, it's a romance/adventure genre film and should be warmer than a military satire/drama.

Instead of mimicking the look of certain films such as The Matrix, Black Hawk Down, etc. because it looks cool and is trendy, we should decide what look best complements the story. -->>>

Your're right. I believe the look should compliment the story and I didn't mean to make it sound so "dumbed down". I just meant in shooting DV for the LONO budget and the INDI film, the format seems to be our favor. I tend to mimic, I admit. But not for lack of originality on my part. I am an Oil Painter and a Guitar Player as well and I have found in my 'learning' of these arts, that when I am inspired and mimic, say perhaps a painting style or guitar technique or sound, I tend to learn it and then expand and mutate it into my own version. Make sense?

Anyhow, you are correct, the look should def compliment the story. Which is why I will not be using a DVX100 to make a western film! :)

Thank you Ken and Don for your advice on how to replicate the look!

If you have Adobe Premiere Pro, you can use a plugin called MAGIC BULLET: MOVIE LOOKS which has over 49 presets ranging from "film looks" of Saving Private Ryan, Three Kings, etc. I have used them and they are incredible. Here's one of the presets from this plugin that you can use for Three Kings:

"Color Reversal: Color reversal film stock is the opposite of color negative. Exposure density is converted to transparency on the film rather than darkness, so that the actual film original that ran through the camera can be projected as a positive image with correct color. This is the case with old Super-8 film for example — the film you project is the film you shot. Slide film is also color reversal. Reversal film, contrastier to begin with, involves an extra duplication step (internegative to interpositive), so the final image is extremely contrasty with super-saturated colors. Some scenes in the film Three Kings were shot this way"

More details about this can be found here: http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/movielooks.html

I am torn right now...

I am getting the agDVX100 24p in 4 days. I already know I will be getting 'some' software to do post.

I'm torn between VEGAS and ADOBE. The ADOBE sounds appealing just for this aspect alone! I love the idea od applying 'film look" to material.

I am going to be attempting the most 'film look' work I can (Letterbox, ana, etc).

Anyone that give some insight on VEGAS or ADOBE P would be helpful...

YEah, I know, search the forums. I have, and am still torn. I hear VEgas kicks As* in respect to 24p for DVX?

But, where are all of the cool plug-in's?

both premiere and vegas offer downloads to try out.

vegas has many plug in's as does premiere .. what specific plug in's do you want ?

Vegas does handle 24pA NOW , letter box is easy , ..

drop pretty much any format on vegas TL 24fps , 60i , QT, AVI , any pixel sizes , uncompressed QT or avi , wmv , mpeg 1 or 2, stills , HD , PAL , divX (mix em all together) and Vegas will play it .. don't know about premiere..

Hi Don

I am really into what ADOBE is offering in terms of Film Look Pre-sets.

ie. bleach bypass, saving private ryan, training day, blackhawk down, etc

What does Vegas offer on the same level as this? I know one can manipulate with curves, contrast, etc - But the preset click option is appealing!

See this thread as well

Vegas does not have any presets at the moment for bleach , flash look though i can match those looks when i have a still to compare against .. it does have a film fx which adds grain ...

BUT then on the other hand there are VEGAS Vegs share files ( VEG is a vegas file that stores info on how something was done). on these sites there are many Vegs for many purposes . you can find film look vegs.
when you open the VEG they have filter pack already set up in the vegas TL .. you then SAVE this filter pack (you name it ) then in future anytime you go into Vegas FX's you will find that filter pack already set ... i recently needed 25 persons on my screen at once - i downloaded the 25 block VEG - opened it and then lead vegas to 25 different clips = on my screen 25 persons. these share VEGS save alot of time..and i have to tell you it is AMAZING what others persons are creating and then sharing the VEGS ...

also Vegas runs SCRIPTING .. you can find many scripts on share sites.. so lets say you need to render out a dv avi , mpeg 1, mpeg 2 , QT , wmv ... you would download a render format script and then choose the formats you want to render out .. you then run the script and Vegas will render out all the formats one after the other ...

My problem is:

I am new to DV and real freakin new to NLE. My hands on film experience is Super 8 and editing with a splicer (come on, you guys remember these things, right?).

I am not knew to 'film' (having worked on some lo/no's). I finally put myself in a position to 'get busy' with the filmaking passion (ie. dvx100) and will be getting some NLE software for my projects.

Adobe as a platform I am used to in that I have taught myself how to use thier products before (photoshop, etc) and I am not familar at all with Vegas.

I goes back to:

1. Which is the best program for me in using the DVX100 and doing post?

I know it might sound silly to you guys; but that one simple ADOBE plug in that mimics filmlook (presets) is one of the key factors for my decison. I like that option!

I do, however, hear great things about VEgas and the DVX (pulldowns).

So, whichever I choose, I will be at the entry level position when I start doing my first post. (It's okay! I am an incredibly fast learner; I am sponge boy)

I noticed Vegas has a section on their site for people do do plug ins... I still havent seen any though.

Adobe has: Premiere and then comes after effects
Sonic (now sony) has: Vegas and then comes.... ?

I'm not sure if Premiere can work with the DVX100, probably
can though. Personally I wouldn't be so obsessed with the
film look plugin. Try to make some good things first which will
probably take you a few shorts to get down, even if you have
had previous experience. Telling your own story with a DV
camera and no crew is something else.

You can always look at the matter of film look later. Things for
that are coming out each month because people seem to want
it so badly. I think I proved with my little short (see thread link
above) that Vegas can do A LOT natively. And that was just my
first try in Vegas.

Then again, so might Premiere Pro natively (haven't used it).
For older versions of Premiere you'll definitely need a plugin.

It is nice that you know Adobe software, but Premiere has
always been the weird package in the lineup as far as interace
is concerned.

Why not try out the demo for Vegas for a couple of weeks or
something and see where that takes you? I switched very
easily myself and just needed to look up how a few basic things
like splicing a clip (with the 's' key) , fading (move the little
triangle in the top corner of the clip) and cross-fading (just drag
one clip over another) and I was editing!

I'm not saying you should go with Vegas, just try it out. And
get your movie shot first before worrying about film look. You
might be 6 - 12 months down the road and Premiere Platinum
and Vegas 5 might be out with automatic-film-look(tm) straight
out of the box!

Hi,
Adobe Premiere Pro can not yet edit and output 24p footage from the DVX. So, what you have to do is buy a program called DVFILM MAKER (www.dvfilm.com) and have that program do the necessary pulldowns so Premiere can edit the footage. Once you finish your editing in Premiere, you then output the footage to the DVFILM MAKER program have it do the changes needed in order for your footage to retain that original "24p look".

It's really not a complicated step....just a 1-2 step process. DVFILM MAKER costs $99 and is a steal since you can do other cool things with it.

The FILM LOOK plugins are incredible and they really compliment my video footage from the DVX, but, like someone else said earlier, you should concentrate on creating a great story first before focusing on special effects. Story is still king when it comes to filmmaking.

One draw back from using the FILM LOOK plugins is that they take forever to render. I have a 3.0ghz P4HT machine with 1gig of ram and it takes me about 6 hours just to render over 15minutes of video.

Hope this helps.

You both are correct and when I get this kind of advice; it reminds me of why I come here. I will spend the next couple of months 'making short' and learnign the proper way to use my amera and lighting and composition, etc.

I'm sure by XMAS, I will be able to tell my wife which one i want. In the meantime I will demo both of them! (I think I am leaning towards Vegas for the 24p thang)

I got a vaguely similar look accidentally when taping a footy match whilst getting a handle on new camera's settings.

It was a light bright overcast day. I had not selected the ND the camera was screaming at me to select and I also selected the backlight setting.

It was not a replication of bleach bypass but might set the foundation for the effect.

Thanks. I've been looking for something like this for a while. The only thing I could ever find was using After Effects plugins.