Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Josh Bass · January 1st, 2020, 04:24 PM

Yeah. Probably when people tell you they dont want a separate DP or whatever, what they mean is they dont want to PAY for another person

Ryan Elder · January 1st, 2020, 04:49 PM

Yeah. Since that has been the case, so far, wonder if I should become my own gimbal operator, rather than someone else then.

John Nantz · January 2nd, 2020, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

Yeah. Probably when people tell you they dont want a separate DP or whatever, what they mean is they dont want to PAY for another person

I'm positive that Josh hit the nail on the head.

This is not Hollywood, a full length film, its a form of a commercial. The business wants to sign up clients for their martial arts training programs and being a local population center (assuming this isn't for a national chain), they have a budget in mind and don't want to spend much.

Rather than using a gimbal (I've got a Glidecam so I know the drawbacks), I'd recommend the Sony FDR-AX53 because it has Optical Image Stabilization. It works really well for moving objects and for moving around with action shots it would be easy and with a two-cam Multicam shoot one can have one cam on a tripod wide and use the AX53 for the handheld shots. Edit out the bad parts while using the tripod cam as a backup.

Another option is to use an electronic gimbal but they, too, have a drawback. In this case the AX53 would be a better tool.

Ryan Elder · January 2nd, 2020, 12:11 AM

Oh okay thanks, but I thought that image stabilization was bad, cause in past experience, if I switch it on, it causes the camera to vibrate, while trying to overcompensate or the hand-held movement. Unless optical stabilization is different?

Another thing is, if I am just one person, and doing the camera work, and cannot boom the mic simultaneously, should boom later and get the sound effects of the hits and take downs separately, and then put them in, in post, over the video then? I can also set up the mic on a stand further away, but then the sound will be further away then.

John Nantz · January 2nd, 2020, 01:40 AM

Stabilization: In the owners manual it does talk about when not to use the optical stabilization and essentially, what it doesn’t like is being almost still. When the cam is used on a monopod and trying to make like it is on a tripod, that is a situation that can cause the issue you’re concerned about. However, if the monopod with the cam is used in a manner to slow down the movement, like when walking for example, then I haven’t seen it be an issue. With a monopod one can also raise the cam up high, like over a crowd, or for more of a look-down view.

The last couple years I’ve been very sidetracked with construction and haven’t had much opportunity to play with my equipment. Been buying stuff but not using it much. Got a X3000 sport cam to go with the AX53. It’s a Go Pro type of cam with weather protection (to ~ 30 feet under water?) and it also has optical stabilization. I’ve used all three together but only for a little bit. This year I hope everything will be different and I’ll get lots of use out of them primarily for action shots.

One of the few times I used the X3000 was last spring where I caught a newspaper thief! That’s right. Being small I hid it in a bush and shortly after 4 AM got him in the video. All the cams can be operated using the iPhone and the Sony app: The X3000, AX53, and the AX700. Makes for a nice system. With the app you can see what the cam is seeing, control stop, start, and zoom.

One man crew: Many of the wedding guys are one-man shows and they’re awesome. I’ve done two weddings, both very nice ones, but they were for relatives as a freebie. Would not want to do them professionally ‘cuz you really have to be on your toes. The second one was much easier so maybe one gets accustomed to them but there is a lot of files, editing work, and storage. Even so, in the second wedding the photographer twice stood in front of me! The first time was with the bride entry and the cam on the tripod so couldn’t move it. With the second shot the cam was rolling with the audio on so couldn’t say anything and was for the first dance so I raised the cam over her head to get my shot, no room to move sideways due to being crowded by the guests.

For audio, I use the Tascam DR-44WL recorder and for a fixed mic and it can be controlled via a Tascam app on the iPhone; start, stop, gain stuff. This was put to good use when the vows were done. Used the AX700 in conjunction with a JuicedLink pre and XLR cables to mics for wide or unmanned shots. For the AX53 I standardly like the Røde Video Stereo mic, either for regular audio or for syncing. Done some church choir videos where there would be a good mic for the choir with the 44WL recorder and the AX700 wide at the rear of the church. Worked well.

With regard to booming, for the interview type shoot or the martial arts shoot, one might be able to use a boom on a tripod. I’ve used it set it up with a Manfrotto Avenger tripod (which is a heavier duty model) with 3” casters, a K-tek carbon fiber telescoping boom pole, and sandbags. It may not be as perfect as you would like but for a one-man show it’s all about compromise. Frankly, I’ve got more money tied up in audio gear than in camera gear. Mics are to audio like paint brushes are to an artist. As the saying goes, it takes money to make money.

Brian Drysdale · January 2nd, 2020, 02:36 AM

A common method for single person shooting is to have an on board microphone and to use radio mics on the participant(s). You can use mic stands (with a boom if needed) or magic arms to mount a mic in appropriate places.

I suspect DSLR image stabilization can vary from lens model to lens model, so you need to select lenses that are suitable for shooting video. Just because a lens has a feature doesn't mean that they're good at all jobs and all circumstances.

Paul R Johnson · January 2nd, 2020, 03:35 AM

Brian mentioned something very important. A lens stabiliser system for stills photography constantly works hard to get a single frame steady - usually by physically jiggling the internal lens elements - you are shooting video, so will see this happening. It's not faulty, just unable to do it's job without messing up sequential frames. Gimbals do a steadying function differently - so can work for SOME circumstances. Your problem is not having enough experience to be able to guess the result before you try.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 2nd, 2020, 07:24 AM

It’s hard to decipher what Ryan is talking about but in regards to stabilization most cameras recommended turning stabilization off when on a tripod because it can cause unwanted changes to the image. This is what he is referring as “vibrations”. Whether it will help or hurt while on a gimbal would vary based on the equipment your using. This is another Ryan wanting an absolute rule. Simply run a test and find what works best for you.

Ryan Elder · January 2nd, 2020, 07:52 AM

Oh okay, but in the short film we talked about before, during the gimbal shots, the camera shakes, it was pointed out, at 4:50 around, into the video:

So I am wondering, are those microshakes, do to the stabilization being on, while on the gimbal?

Sorry, youtube is not allowing the video to be played on here for some reason. I am trying to figure it out.

Brian Drysdale · January 2nd, 2020, 08:32 AM

Why wasn't this shaking noticed at the time, so you could do another take?

Ryan Elder · January 2nd, 2020, 08:35 AM

We did a few takes but me and the gimbal operator could not figure out what the problem was. Basically we just had to move on.

Pete Cofrancesco · January 2nd, 2020, 09:34 AM

Without seeing the footage the most likely cause for vibrations on a gimbal is the motors are struggling. The motors struggle when the camera is not properly balanced, the camera is too heavy, the lens is too big in particular zoom lenses, gusting winds or the gimbal is of low quality or malfunctioning.

Ryan Elder · January 2nd, 2020, 11:29 PM

Okay thanks. Sorry about the footage, youtube is all changed around now, and I am still trying to figure out the problem, since my videos were working before. If the motor is struggling, would it be struggling if the gimbal is held still as well, or only struggling when you are moving it?

Paul R Johnson · January 3rd, 2020, 03:18 AM

The video is now set to private, which means that unless you are included in the people list, you can't see it. Nothing has changed apart from the person who has the video has changed it's status - some people don't want video's shared.

The gimbal is just physics. Kill the power and watch what happens. Does the camera suddenly take a violent nose dive because it's very lens heavy? If so, then the gimbal servos are working very hard simply to keep the lens up, and their ability to react quickly to tiny movements is being paralysed by the imbalance. Gimbal mounts vary so much in their ability to react too. A big setup has inertia and momentum, again, things the servos have to try to deal with.
EDIT - sorry, Peter said all this.

Why do you call the cameraman the 'gimbal operator' = In your neck of the woods do you have such specialisms? I don't know ANY gimbal operators , I know cameramen/women who have gimbal mounts. I'm thinking you've got a little hung up on the terminology applied to people. Surely - if you have a need for a cameraman, the choice of grip kit to stick them on is up to them. I see steadicam as separate because it's a unique role, but I have a gimbal mount, and rarely ever use it. Your choice of words and phrases suggests in our minds divisions, separations and processes we find a bit difficult to attach to the products you produce? Looking at your work, I see tripods and hand held shooting the main two processes. Trouble is, often we see hand held when a tripod would have solved all the issues, and when we see movement of the camera it seems unrehearsed or a bit 'odd' - and a gimbal would not have really helped.

Brian Drysdale · January 3rd, 2020, 04:46 AM

I get the impression Ryan thinks thar a gimbal is the answer to everything, however, they have limitations and work better in some circumstances than others. https://nofilmschool.com/2016/07/9-i...use-gimbal-pro

https://www.redsharknews.com/product...he-best-option

From what he's said about his area, buying a dolly would be better for dramas, rather than yet another gimbal.

January 1st, 2020, 04:24 PM	#121
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Yeah. Probably when people tell you they dont want a separate DP or whatever, what they mean is they dont want to PAY for another person __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

January 1st, 2020, 04:49 PM	#122
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Yeah. Since that has been the case, so far, wonder if I should become my own gimbal operator, rather than someone else then.

January 2nd, 2020, 12:11 AM	#124
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay thanks, but I thought that image stabilization was bad, cause in past experience, if I switch it on, it causes the camera to vibrate, while trying to overcompensate or the hand-held movement. Unless optical stabilization is different? Another thing is, if I am just one person, and doing the camera work, and cannot boom the mic simultaneously, should boom later and get the sound effects of the hits and take downs separately, and then put them in, in post, over the video then? I can also set up the mic on a stand further away, but then the sound will be further away then.

January 2nd, 2020, 01:40 AM	#125
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,252	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Stabilization: In the owners manual it does talk about when not to use the optical stabilization and essentially, what it doesn’t like is being almost still. When the cam is used on a monopod and trying to make like it is on a tripod, that is a situation that can cause the issue you’re concerned about. However, if the monopod with the cam is used in a manner to slow down the movement, like when walking for example, then I haven’t seen it be an issue. With a monopod one can also raise the cam up high, like over a crowd, or for more of a look-down view. The last couple years I’ve been very sidetracked with construction and haven’t had much opportunity to play with my equipment. Been buying stuff but not using it much. Got a X3000 sport cam to go with the AX53. It’s a Go Pro type of cam with weather protection (to ~ 30 feet under water?) and it also has optical stabilization. I’ve used all three together but only for a little bit. This year I hope everything will be different and I’ll get lots of use out of them primarily for action shots. One of the few times I used the X3000 was last spring where I caught a newspaper thief! That’s right. Being small I hid it in a bush and shortly after 4 AM got him in the video. All the cams can be operated using the iPhone and the Sony app: The X3000, AX53, and the AX700. Makes for a nice system. With the app you can see what the cam is seeing, control stop, start, and zoom. One man crew: Many of the wedding guys are one-man shows and they’re awesome. I’ve done two weddings, both very nice ones, but they were for relatives as a freebie. Would not want to do them professionally ‘cuz you really have to be on your toes. The second one was much easier so maybe one gets accustomed to them but there is a lot of files, editing work, and storage. Even so, in the second wedding the photographer twice stood in front of me! The first time was with the bride entry and the cam on the tripod so couldn’t move it. With the second shot the cam was rolling with the audio on so couldn’t say anything and was for the first dance so I raised the cam over her head to get my shot, no room to move sideways due to being crowded by the guests. For audio, I use the Tascam DR-44WL recorder and for a fixed mic and it can be controlled via a Tascam app on the iPhone; start, stop, gain stuff. This was put to good use when the vows were done. Used the AX700 in conjunction with a JuicedLink pre and XLR cables to mics for wide or unmanned shots. For the AX53 I standardly like the Røde Video Stereo mic, either for regular audio or for syncing. Done some church choir videos where there would be a good mic for the choir with the 44WL recorder and the AX700 wide at the rear of the church. Worked well. With regard to booming, for the interview type shoot or the martial arts shoot, one might be able to use a boom on a tripod. I’ve used it set it up with a Manfrotto Avenger tripod (which is a heavier duty model) with 3” casters, a K-tek carbon fiber telescoping boom pole, and sandbags. It may not be as perfect as you would like but for a one-man show it’s all about compromise. Frankly, I’ve got more money tied up in audio gear than in camera gear. Mics are to audio like paint brushes are to an artist. As the saying goes, it takes money to make money.

January 2nd, 2020, 02:36 AM	#126
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? A common method for single person shooting is to have an on board microphone and to use radio mics on the participant(s). You can use mic stands (with a boom if needed) or magic arms to mount a mic in appropriate places. I suspect DSLR image stabilization can vary from lens model to lens model, so you need to select lenses that are suitable for shooting video. Just because a lens has a feature doesn't mean that they're good at all jobs and all circumstances.

January 2nd, 2020, 03:35 AM	#127
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Brian mentioned something very important. A lens stabiliser system for stills photography constantly works hard to get a single frame steady - usually by physically jiggling the internal lens elements - you are shooting video, so will see this happening. It's not faulty, just unable to do it's job without messing up sequential frames. Gimbals do a steadying function differently - so can work for SOME circumstances. Your problem is not having enough experience to be able to guess the result before you try.

January 2nd, 2020, 07:24 AM	#128
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? It’s hard to decipher what Ryan is talking about but in regards to stabilization most cameras recommended turning stabilization off when on a tripod because it can cause unwanted changes to the image. This is what he is referring as “vibrations”. Whether it will help or hurt while on a gimbal would vary based on the equipment your using. This is another Ryan wanting an absolute rule. Simply run a test and find what works best for you.

January 2nd, 2020, 07:52 AM	#129
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay, but in the short film we talked about before, during the gimbal shots, the camera shakes, it was pointed out, at 4:50 around, into the video: YouTube So I am wondering, are those microshakes, do to the stabilization being on, while on the gimbal? Sorry, youtube is not allowing the video to be played on here for some reason. I am trying to figure it out.

January 2nd, 2020, 08:32 AM	#130
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Why wasn't this shaking noticed at the time, so you could do another take?

January 2nd, 2020, 08:35 AM	#131
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? We did a few takes but me and the gimbal operator could not figure out what the problem was. Basically we just had to move on.

January 2nd, 2020, 09:34 AM	#132
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Without seeing the footage the most likely cause for vibrations on a gimbal is the motors are struggling. The motors struggle when the camera is not properly balanced, the camera is too heavy, the lens is too big in particular zoom lenses, gusting winds or the gimbal is of low quality or malfunctioning.

January 2nd, 2020, 11:29 PM	#133
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks. Sorry about the footage, youtube is all changed around now, and I am still trying to figure out the problem, since my videos were working before. If the motor is struggling, would it be struggling if the gimbal is held still as well, or only struggling when you are moving it?

January 3rd, 2020, 03:18 AM	#134
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? The video is now set to private, which means that unless you are included in the people list, you can't see it. Nothing has changed apart from the person who has the video has changed it's status - some people don't want video's shared. The gimbal is just physics. Kill the power and watch what happens. Does the camera suddenly take a violent nose dive because it's very lens heavy? If so, then the gimbal servos are working very hard simply to keep the lens up, and their ability to react quickly to tiny movements is being paralysed by the imbalance. Gimbal mounts vary so much in their ability to react too. A big setup has inertia and momentum, again, things the servos have to try to deal with. EDIT - sorry, Peter said all this. Why do you call the cameraman the 'gimbal operator' = In your neck of the woods do you have such specialisms? I don't know ANY gimbal operators , I know cameramen/women who have gimbal mounts. I'm thinking you've got a little hung up on the terminology applied to people. Surely - if you have a need for a cameraman, the choice of grip kit to stick them on is up to them. I see steadicam as separate because it's a unique role, but I have a gimbal mount, and rarely ever use it. Your choice of words and phrases suggests in our minds divisions, separations and processes we find a bit difficult to attach to the products you produce? Looking at your work, I see tripods and hand held shooting the main two processes. Trouble is, often we see hand held when a tripod would have solved all the issues, and when we see movement of the camera it seems unrehearsed or a bit 'odd' - and a gimbal would not have really helped.

January 3rd, 2020, 04:46 AM	#135
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? I get the impression Ryan thinks thar a gimbal is the answer to everything, however, they have limitations and work better in some circumstances than others. https://nofilmschool.com/2016/07/9-i...use-gimbal-pro https://www.redsharknews.com/product...he-best-option From what he's said about his area, buying a dolly would be better for dramas, rather than yet another gimbal.