Thanks Chris.

I always believed expressing your thoughts and considerations, so that one can hear (or read it later) himself, and -most importantly - others can read and express their opinion, is the best way to reach the right conclusions, and hence - the optimum decision.

So now that you've seen my rig, you're absolutely right - I'm not even trying to be mobile with it. Some 90% of its use is shooting live music performances. So of course my tripod must be as solid as a rock, but with this weight and size of the whole rig, whether the tripod will add one 1kg more or less is not important at all.

This is why I still am considering the Manfrotto 526, which is 1/2 price of the Sachtler DV 8/100. And of course, it's also 100 mm ball. The only remaining issue is the legs; do you find the 528 really that much better that the more mobile 350, or 515?

Your opinion is very important to me Chris, because you're right: I'm never compromising if there is even the slightest chance to avoid compromising. Let me go back to where we started, and express my dilemma again:

- for the rig as in the picture above, and shooting music (usually multi-camera shots, with my own being the "main" camera, i.e. always on, lots of close-ups, only some panning or tilting,) - should I make every effort possible and buy the Sachtler DV 8/100 on CF sticks, or the Manfrotto 526 (on which legs?), and for the difference in price invest into a really good microphone, for instance?

PS. I fogott about the third possibility that you've mentioned - the DV 8/100 on the 528 sticks...

Hmmm.............
 

That's a hard one or three, but I'll take a stab.

The 515, 350, 528 Big Q.

Without having handled the first two, I can only go on their support ratings.

At 15 kg, 20 kg and 50 kg respectively, the 528's cream 'em quite frankly.

Reinforced by their build weights of 3.5 kg, 4.9 kg and 7.4 kg, giving respective build weight/ support weight ratios of 4.28, 4.08 and 6.75 kilos per kilo.

I think that last figure is due to Manfrotto using steel for a good part of the 528 leg build and not aluminium.

All round, the 528's take the prize (including hernia potential).

At least you don't have to buy a seperate spreader.

With list prices (a la B&H) of $445, $460 & $624, the 528's are a lot of bang for your buck.

I'd say, for your type of shooting, the 528's would be the way to go.

[Oh, BTW, if you get the 114 dolly and park it under the 528's, you get one serious mother of a studio setup].

Now, can I seriously argue you out of the 526?

Nope, and I ain't even going to try.

I honestly believe this combination:

Bogen / Manfrotto | 528XB Tripod w/526 Head | 526,528XBK | B&H

has gotta be one of the best bang per buck setups for your appliction, going.

I think you'd have to spend three times it's asking price to get a better system, and I don't really know how much better it would be.

I say - Go For It!


CS


PS: Ever since posting this, something had been nagging away. Came back this evening and checked, yep, sure enough, the price of the "system" at $2040.95 was significantly more than the individual units total ($624.95 + $1250.00 = $1874.95).

Of course, depends on whether you'd be getting it from B&H, if so, something to point out.

I'm NOT a "wannabee" and I'm drooling over that system. Yep, I'd recommend 100mm as well. And a Sherpa guide to help carry everything.

yes and definitely yes!
 

i looked at your picture and i actually have 3 more items on my DV8/100 than you.
in the front, i have a Zylight90 (led light) with chimera box and fasteners (to the rails) pulling a pair of tekkeon batteries.
a schoeps mike on a telescopic mount.
so the front of my system is rather loaded and the sachtler dv8/100 counterbalances this with room to spare.

this setup as you know is for stage work and not my run and gun. for that, i bring along either a pair of sober hands or a bogen manfrotto 561b monopod with that fantastic ground rotating mechanism

Bogen / Manfrotto | 561B Fluid Video Monopod | 561B | B&H Photo

the above is great for terrains, sports, and kids where it's just the camera (ex1 sized) and a self powered led light or mike.

so piotr, others have confirmed what i will also tell you.
with what you do, 100mm is the minimum and there is reason to go even higher than that, as you have a lot of stuff! 150mm is not out of the question here.

since you are considering legs in the price range of the gitzo gt3530ls, which i sometimes use with my sachtler dv8/100 with the gitzo 100mm ball mount, you have a setup with a lot of height and movement flexibility if you ever needed it and up to 40lbs.

hope you make the best choice for yourself!

paul

Yes Paul, 100 mm it will be for sure...

Actually, my full setup is also even heavier than the one depicted above; the light in the cold shoe and a (shotgun plus radio receiver) on J-rod (front), plus the PAG 100 Wh battery at the very back end, on the free portion of rails sticking there :)

Today, I had a chance to put the camera alone on the Manfrotto 526; the head feels solid, but it was mounted on the lightweight 515 stick - even with the minimal drag applied, all panning and tilting move the whole tripod! So definitely, if I go for the 526, I need heavier stick (maybe even the heavy-duty 528, as Chris suggests).

But if I go with the Sachtler DV 8/100 on the CF legs, won't the same happen? I mean, with my full rig's over 10 kgs it should be loaded enough to not move the whole tripod when panning/tilting; but when I put the naked camera on it, won't the CF stick be too lightweight?

I AM using the very handy Manfrotto pouch, hanging in the middle of the legs, with some heavy stuff in it - it does stabilize the legs, but still... It looks like with heavy-duty system I need a heavy-duty head, which in turn requires a very heavy tripod...

PS. Incidentally, I'm also using the 561B monopod for those casual shots.

piotr,

that's even more stuff.
you have a house on those legs, so you will have to get the spreaders and the 0860 then
be sure to lock the bottom or dollies if you so employs.

actually, the larger tubed carbons in both the gitzo and manfrotto are not easy to push around, unless you have wheels underneath. i would not be that concerned.

some may say that your support system is now more expensive than your camera, but don't forget that not long ago, something like the EX1 used to cost 20k+

paul


(ps. i know about that manfrotto apron you mentioned. it's great on my gitzo gt3530lv too, i put snacks and binoculars there outdoors.)

Paul,

I must be very tired today, but I'm afraid I don't quite get you - are you saying that if I decide on the Sachtler DV 8/100, I should go with the alu (rather than CF) legs, and the bottom spreader (ie 0860 and NOT 0862)?

yes, you're sober!
 

piotr,

yes, you did read that and i too only slept 2 hours overnight.

you mentioned concerns over accidentally pushing the carbon legs with all the gear up top as reason for a heavier aluminum legs. that could be a legit concern in conditions where your system weight is not that great and the carbon legs may be easier for someone to push it forward, but once you have enough, i do not see that being the case.

still, the 860 is really what you need and 862 does not seem to be adding that much to you in my analysis as you really have not concern over cargo weight. appears you have an entourage helping you there.

so, 0860 should be good for up to 75lbs, more than enough for what you have.

i went with carbon because i needed the portability..

paul

in NYC, call me
 

by the way piotr,

if you make it here over the christmas break, i'll go with you to b&h where they have a fantastic showroom where you can try out all the sachtler, bogen, cartoni, and vinten gear wtith your camera and add ons.

paul

Thanks Paul for you kind invitation, but I'm in Poland and am afraid I won't make to NY any time soo soon :)

Paul,

Living in Poland, where things like Sachtler are no very popular due to their price way above average Johnny's capabilities, I don't have anywhere to put my hands on them - I need to fully rely on the advice of good people like yourself...

One more question, if you don't mind: why do you favour floor-spreader over the mid-one?

piotr,

regarding spreaders for large legs you are considering.

it depends on what type of work you'll be doing.
if it's stage work where you are following dancers around, thus lots of panning, you'll want a spreader to further provide rigidity and that perfect flow. with the spreaders, you'll feel that the legs are glued to the floor, especially when you are using those 0860 with the dv8/100 ball.
if you are not panning a whole lot, spreaders may not be necessary for you indoors.

concerning mid level over floor level.

i think floor level is really for indoors and mid level for outdoors as the mid level can help in locking that terrain unevenness, say some gravel, rocks, or steps. floor spreaders will not work here and no spreaders may not be wise. here, in a pinch, you could use the bogen apron!

others will have their own reasons for spreaders, but for I, it's the confidence of stability, indoor or out.

paul

go to B&H
 

there are typos in Sachtler's page descriptions, hence the confusion.
the head and legs are the same in the 2 packages, only the spreader differs.

i have the same ex1 as you and the amount of gear.
i can say for your height, fsb6 may not work (well) as i am not 6' and did not like the 443 system.

if you are near the city, do go to b&h and try out the fsb6, dv6, and dv8 systems.

i believe they have a canon prosumer on the fsb6 at the moment as demo.
that cam is far smaller than our ex1.

that is simply the base cam, once you add lights, mikes, batteries, focusing switch, and monitors, the proper counterbalance requires a larger base and head.

paul

still agonizing between Manfrotto 526 and Sachtler DV 8/100
 

One more inquiry, if you don't mind - looking at my full-blown rig here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/981668-post156.html

- how high would you estimate its C.o.G. to be?

It's important for me to estimate it (my guess is some 150 mm at the least), because - looking at the Sachtler DV 8/100 counterbalance graph: sachtler: Fluid heads - I'm a bit anxious the actual maximum weight capacity would be more like some 10 kg (rather than the 12 kg rated for 100 mm C.o.G.). And 10 kg is the exact rig's weight; if the C.o.G. happens to be any higher, the Manfrotto 526 (rated at 16 kg / 115 mm) would be more appropriate, after all.

One disadvantage with the 526 is that with a naked EX1 camera, even the minimum counterbalance seems to be a tad too much (only springing back at zero drag) - but I guess this is less of a problem than not enough payload capacity for the full rig...

What do you think?

Hi once again.............
 

Wow, that's a tough one, and no mistake.

OK, I'm going to assume that the rig in the photo is perfectly balanced on the head, which puts it's vertical COG about where the camera lens finishes and the whatchamacallit begins.

So, the stuff at the back including that high mount monitor is balanced by all that low(er) stuff out front.

Normally on a modern high end camcorder, I'd take a (very) rough stab and say the COG would run straight through the centre of the lens plane, the lens being just about the heaviest bit on the camera (along with the battery).

However, taking into account those rails, and the relatively low COG of that gubbins out the front, I'd say the COG was about 1/3 rd up from the bottom of the lens barrel and possibly as little as 1/4 the way up, heck, it could even be level with the bottom of the lens barrel (just looked again, don't think that last guess was realistic).

The main reason I believe it's that low is the sheer length of the front and rear sections. I cannot see how much of it could be tilted so as to move it's COG over the head pivot point, at least not in a real world setting.

[In case anyone's finding that a bit difficult to visualize, imagine a vertical line running straight through the head pivot point towards the ceiling. Now imagine tipping the camera, first forward 30 degrees, then backwards. How much of the rig actually "crosses the line" in each case? From where I'm sitting, the answer is "Not much"]

So, my guess is, 1/3rd up from the bottom of the lens barrel max, 1/4 min.

Where do those two measure in relation to the head plate?

Very hard to estimate from the photo but 125mm? Maybe not even that.

If true, you're still on the side of the angels with the Sachtler.

One way to lower the COG even more would be to move that monitor backwards towards the operator a tad, every little bit helps.

I'll be interested to see what the concensus is - any advance on 150+ or 125-?


CS

Thanks Chris - you're right that with the rig's "length" dominating other dimensions, its C.o.G. is not as high as I thought (i.e. probably less than 150 mm), which is good.

One thing I must take into consideration is that I'm going to replace the Letus riser with the RedRock microSupport high riser (microSupport baseplate, 15mm high riser), which - even though itself quite heavy perhaps - will move the C.o.G. even lower.

I'm interested in others' opinions even more than you are :)

This could get addictive..................
 

DVinfo's very own "Spot The Ball" competition!

Remember those?

Used to be incredibly popular (and addictive).

Many years ago when newspapers were about it for news, the late Saturday edition would print a photo of Saturdays "Big Match" action, but with the ball air brushed out.

If your "X marks the spot" was it, you won tickets to the next "Big Match" or somesuch.

Any ideas for a prize for this "Spot the COG" game?


CS

Manfrotto 503HDV Tripod with EX1
 

I just bought a Manfrotto 503HDV tripod from B&H and found that my (tilt) fluid drag when all the way tightened isn't enough. With my EX1 mounted and if all tilted forward, it will slowly fall forward or backward. The only way I can get this to stop is using the locking lever which you shouldn't have to use. I called Bogen and they said that it should support my cameras weight and not do this, but to even further the confusion, my friend bought the 503 about 2 years ago and it had the same problem... I thought that it was just a defective one for him and have heard nothing but good comments about this model so I bought it. Does anyone have one and notice this? I'm sending mine back in and having another sent to my place but expect the same results. If so, then I'm going to spend more money on a better tripod.

I have a 503HDV head. With a bare EX1 (with U60 battery) the ideal balance would be somewhere between 2 and 3 though I normally use 2. 3 and low drag results in the camera tilting up to the centre position. Add a Sennheiser G2 receiver or two, and the 3 setting works just fine.

Maybe there is a fault with the counterbalance selector. With the camera off the head, set it to 0, tilt the head forward or back then select 1. As you tilt the head through the mid position, you should feel a clunk as the springs engage. Then do the same, changing to 2 then 3 and you should get a clunk each time as well as feeling increasing bias towards the mid position.

N

Hey Dylan

having worked with the 503 on a number of occasions and having on most of those occasions having experienced the same problem as you describe, I decided to go a number bigger and get the 519, mounted on 351MVCF legs for my EX3, now while I´m not all that impressed with the fluid drag (I always have it on highest setting), there is a counterbalance function with interchangeable springs to adapt to the weight of your camera, which makes life a bit easier and saves you from having to catch the camera from tilting down or up all the time,

if you aren´t looking to save on as much weight (and cash) as you can, look into getting a set of legs with a 100mm bowl and a larger head.
Tripod is not the right place to save...

good luck

Nick I thought that the counter balance primary function was to help with the camera being front heavy (with a 35mm setup) And I'm just talking a bare EX1.... With the CB set to 3, I find the spring annoying when I want to tilt deep due to the added resistance towards the end of my tilt. I just don't get it, so many people swear by this thing. I have a $200 bogen that works better than this. I must be missing something. The thing is rated for a 17lb camera too! Well I'll find out when I get my new one.

The counter balance is to counter the camera's tendency to fall forward or back because its centre of gravity is above the head's pivot point. The camera needs to be slid on the head to position its centre of gravity directly over the pivot point; with loads of hardware hanging off the front you may need the long plate:

Keene Electronics

Balancing the camera on the head involves roughly setting the counterbalance, then sliding the camera forward or back until it falls away equally to the front and rear, then setting the counterbalance so as far as possible, wherever it is tilted, it stays. Too much counterbalance and the camera will drift towards level; too little and it will fall away. If the position is wrong, it will fall forward but not back, or vice versa. Like most things in life this is a compromise and some residual movement can be fixed with a bit of drag.

Sachtler FSB 4 with EX1?
 

Wanted to update my old Vinten Vision 100. I have been looking at the options and wanted to see if I could get some help from this fine community.

I am on a EX1 which is 5.3 lbs (2.8kg) at the moment but will be getting the scarlet when it comes out which should be under 6 lbs. with basic battery and fixed lens.

I like to stay light so I do not add tons of stuff as this is my run and gun setup.

I was wondering if anyone is using the Sachtler FSB - 4 with 8.8 lbs Capacity. I got a coupon at NAB that buys me the 2 stage alu setup with this head for $999 from BH. Seems like a good deal with free shipping too!

Slightly tempted or should I spend $630 more and go for the Sachtler DV 6 which Supports 19.8 lbs.

Another tripod I have hear good things about is the GITZO G1380 ALU KIT which sells for 1550 from EVS and can handle up to 22 lbs. I love the legs on this setup but I HATE the locking off mechanism on that head. It is similar if not identical to my old Vision 100 and those little locking of leavers get worn out very quickly and the head becomes impossible to lock off, especially when fighting the counterbalance on a tilt.

Has anyone used the FSB - 4 with the EX1? I guess the FSB - 6 is an option too but it costs $1,549.95 and only suports 13.2 lbs so if I am going to spend that kind of money I would rather get the dv-6

Sachtler FSB - 4 $999.95 from BH

Sachtler FSB - 6 $1,549.95 from BH

GITZO G1380 $1,549.95 from EVS

Sachtler DV 6 1,599.95 from BH

Planing to buy early next week.

Thx in advance for any advice,

Adam
Levinspictures

I see you come from London. In the UK Secced is a well-sold clone of Sachtler. I use an Ares 3 system for 2 months now. Perfect!. They are stable, feel solid, have 4 different counterbalance options, move as smooth as a Sachtler and are way cheaper. For an EX1 I'd say the Secced Ares 2 system is the perect tripod:

DVbuyer: Secced ARES 2 Tripod

Very good experience with buying TNP from this side.

Thanks Gabor,

Interesting option. I will look into it.

I am in the US at the moment so going to buy here. I am keen to stick to a brand that has a track record and solid warranty.

Do you have any experience with the FSB line at all?

Adam, I have the FSB6 and have been very happy with it.

Hi Adam,

Not with the FSB line. I had a Sachtler DV1 system before the Secced and prefer the Secced system. It just the same value for less money. I needed to sell the Sachtler because it was way too light for my S270. Now I do use the Seced Ares 3 which is more heavy and costs only €900, less then the Sachtler DV1 which initially costed €1000.

Thanks Dave.

Did you test the FSB 4 at all? Perhaps you bought the 6 before the 4 was released. Would you consider the 4 if you were buying now?

What counterbalance setting do you work on with the EX1 on the FSB 6?

The other big difference between the 4 and 6 is 5 more steps of counterbalance on the 6. they both share 3 levels of drag plus off (no drag).

FSB6 = Counterbalance in 10 steps, Grades of drag 3 each horizontal and vertical + 0

FSB4 = Counterbalance in 5 steps, Grades of drag 3 each horizontal and vertical + 0

Adam,

fully rigged our EX-3 weighs 13.5#. It might be argued that we like over-kill here, but our tripod of choice is the Sachtler DV 8 SB. Not one bit sorry we chose this model. Light weight but stable. Highly recommended.

Dave

I'll second the FSB 6. Nice head for the price. I got the CF quick lock legs also.

No, I don't think the FSB4 was available at the time. I'd probably look at it closely if I was doing it all over today. BTW, I bought it with the carbon fiber legs and had problems with one of the locking mechanisms which Sachtler took care of.


I'm using it on #3 presently. That might change if I get a WA attachment.

Yes, I've been very impressed with the head on this thing. Very nice change from my Bogen/Manfrotto!

Thanks for all the feedback.

I am going to get the Sachtler FSB 4 and do a mini review here as I can't find one on the net at the moment. Will be interesting to see how suitable a match it is for the EX1.

I can always return it for a larger model if I need to.

Still Waiting for B&H to get more FSB4's in stock....

Adam,
I tried the FSB4, FSB6 & others at NAB - with wireless mic, larger battery, on camera light ... I think the FSB6T is a better choice.

I had been using the Sachtler 18 II for a long long time and very happy with it.
Now I'm using the FSB6T (#442) - it could not compare to the old one, but it's pretty good.

Thanks Tuy,

Maybe I need to go for a FSB6 or DV6....

If you decided to go with FSB6 - take the FSB6 T (touch and go). The camera plate is small and fit perfect under the Sony EX1.

I might disagree with Tuy a little bit. I got the FSB6, but I got it with this head option:
Sachtler | 0407 FSB-6 Fluid Head | 0407 | B&H Photo Video

which allows an additional 2" of travel forward and back which comes in handy if I hang a heavy wideangle adapter on the front or if I put the bigger battery on the back. It just gives me more options for balancing the whole rig.

Also, Sachtler just introduced an FSB 7 model, but I'm unsure of the price.

Looking for a Tripod for my SONY EX1, help needed.
 

I am the proud owner of a SONY EX1.

I am in need of a new heavy duty tripod that can pan up and down, and from side to side extremely smooth.

Any recommendations of a great tripod under $1,000 USD ??

I'm a huge fan of Sachtler, although I would definitely prefer a Video20, but that's out of your range... This is a nice head with decent sticks, but depending on your camera set-up you might get too heavy for it's 8.8lbs weight limit:
Sachtler | 0372 FSB-4 Aluminum Tripod System | 0372 | B&H Photo

If you have plenty of accessories on your camera weighing it down then this Leibec set-up it pretty nice, although I've only used this particular head once. It was, however, with no complaints. 17lbs weight limit:
Libec | LS-38M(2A) Professional Tripod System | LS-38M(2A) | B&H

Then there is of course always the Manfrotto 501HDV. You can just do a search on B&H for that one, it has more packages then I can count, some with good sticks, others with terrible ones! (EDIT: Alrighty, you\'ve twisted my leg; Aluminum Sticks or Carbon Fiber. I personally am not a huge fan of Manfrotto heads, but others swear by them. The old 501 would pan and tilt smooth enough but always had a sticky start. That may have been fixed with the newer 501HDV, but in any case I\'d always recommend to try before you buy! You can always head to your local rental shop and just ask to try out a few different sets and see what you like...

The Miller Solo tripods are great and very light.