Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Vinten is bringing in a demo unit for the Vinten Vision Blue to compare with the local affected heads.

Also, anyone know the height/cog/weight specs of a Vinten Vision 3 (non AS) with number 4kg brown spring?

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

MY answer is no, what little specs there ever were, dissapeared when the V3 was discontinued, and even then, they were pretty flimsy, because of the COG thing (camera's hadn't really started their startling descent in the weight/ COG stakes at that point).

Try it, Zexun and see how you go, best I can suggest, but that's one heck of a spring, think I have one, and it launches anything I'm using (or WAS, they've got lighter since then) into low earth orbit.

If the worst comes to the worst, use a lower rated spring than required for your kit, and use tilt drag to keep it under control.

Hopefully they'll get the testers in time and you can use that.

Should have given Barbara a call, you would have had a Sachtler there by now, I'm not joking, just like Peter, she doesn't muck about.

Although, re - reading your post, at that point in time, all the COG heights were 125mm, you can see where the problems start with todays long, low camera systems?

Keep us posted.


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Ah. So the traditional "weight limits" are all referring to 125mm and up?

Like what I messaged you (while you were replying this thread, i'm sorry), I can have a spring number 2 attached. It says there it'll be a 2kg for 125mm COG. Roughly translated to DSLR terms, probably means it'll be about 2.5kg with my low COG setup - which is exactly what my 501HDV is doing at the moment.

Worth a shot, maybe? The VB won't come in on time for my two assignments this week.

Yeah I probably should've contacted Barbara about it. Still haven't tested the FSB-6 from the local rental house yet though, I haven't had the time!

Zexun

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Got your mail (hey, even I have to eat sometime!), if they offer you a V 3, grab every spring they have and go for it, see how you get on.

With the low COG gear you have, who knows what's going to work, if anything. It's going to be a complete punt.

A #1 springs (er, sorry!) to mind, if they have one, else simply leave the spring out entirely, make sure it's balanced, set the tilt drag to hold it, and you still have Vinten LF drag in your favour.

Else load it with anything you can think of to give it some more weight up top, anything, heck, fill your sock with gravel and drape it over the camera, if you have to.

I'm not joking BTW, just in case anyone was thinking of having a laugh.

Good luck.


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

No worries mate, you aren't obligated to reply fast at all!

I've gotten my dad to try to get a proper cheeseplate done up with 1/4" thread holes so I can mount my quick releases and what naught onto it. Helps increase the weight and raise the CG.

Currently it's pretty balanced on my 501HDV so here's hoping a Vision 3 will work just like that.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

When you said......

did you mean your Dad made it?

If that photo with the plate of (powder coated?) steel Swiss cheese under the cam is any indication, he's gotta be a bit of a whizz kid in the workshop.

H'mm, wonder if he wants a job?

Don't worry, just thinking aloud, but if he actually made that, I'm really impressed, because it looks like a real Pro piece of kit.

Keep us posted.


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Chris,

I have had replies to my question, both from Barbara and Peter. Like you said, they are very dedicated and willing to help.

Let me start with a remark Peter made:

I have to disagree with what your dealer has told you, implying that because of the temperature, that Vinten products “require more servicing”, this simply isn’t true. Yes, the Sachtler product has a wider temperature range than the Vision blue all the way up to Vision 10AS, all of which use the LF drag system, but that’s where it stops. Both brands have pros and cons including the drag system performance.

I think that based on all your recommendations (Barbara, Peter and yourself) I will have to contact the local dealer and arrange testing two tripod systems that I (of course with your help) found at B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/615582-REG/Vinten_V5AS_CP2M_V5AS_CP2M_Vision_Pozi_Loc_Carbon.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/498220-REG/Sachtler_0450_0450_FSB_6T_with_75CF.html
Both reflect the suggestions Barbara and Peter gave and that would be OK for my rig. But also they have pro's and con's as I understand it. Just giving my initial perception of one versus the other option:

Sachtler pro's: Hugely more attractive price, better temperature range, easy setup with one lever per leg.
Sachtler con's: 2:1:1 legs and stepped drag system.

Vinten pro's: 2:2:1 legs and continuous drag system and a larger payload.
Vinten con's: Very expensive and lesser temperature range.

Now if I plan to film two events, just as an example to help me decide the relevancy of the temperature range versus the drag system, but also indicative of the wide range of situations:

1. St. Maarten the Heineken Regatta on the beach in 30 degree C temperatures in sunny weather (making the effective temps much higher) with very zoomed in shots of the racing boats, and

2. Lauberhorn downhill in Wengen around the Canadian Corner on the ski slope in -15 degree C temperatures with fast pans to follow the racers.

Based on the above and taking into consideration where I'm coming from and that I'm not a professional, but a mere hobbyist, my initial feeling is that Sachtler is the more attractive deal. Of course you get what you pay for, but the price difference is huge. Hard to tell without testing them both, but what is your gut feeling in this situation?

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

@ Chris: No, those cheeseplates were unscrewed from a Gini rig off ebay. They're a two-piece though, so it's not exactly very friendly to the plates if I want them to be anti-twist. Probably will get my dad to just do a simple stainless steel piece.


Anyway guys, big update in terms of experiences.

Tried the Sachtler FSB-6 and FSB-8 tripods on 75mm 2-stage sticks. Fiddly. Not stable enough for me i'm afraid! Heads were great, but like expected, I prefer perfect balance.

I went back to Vitec SG today and they loaned me a Vinten Vision 3as with #1 and #2 screws and a grey pozi-loc tripod with (ugh) ground spreader. I'll be using the #2 screw (2kg @ 125mm COG) for the setup I've attached below.

On testing the head in my quiet bedroom, I could definitely hear the bearings, but the jerkiness wasn't there at all, much different than the Vision Blue heads in question. I'll definitely have a good shoot tomorrow!


@ Harm: Seems like you'll be traveling a lot. Perhaps the Sachtler might indeed be a better idea, even though the legs aren't what I want them to be. Like I said, I tried the FSB-6T head today and it was good but.. the aluminum legs don't instill confidence.

Cheers,
Zexun

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Harm, you first.

OK, lets tackle this temperature thing head on (sorry!).

I simply can't find the operating temperature range for Vinten LF drag systems anywhere, so I will have to base my answer (loosely) on the TF range of -40C to +60C, let's say the LF is only -25C to +50C, total guess, OK?

Sachtler has a wider range than Vinten (admitted by Peter), so can handle even more extremes.

Now, first and formost, does anybody know a camera manufacturer who will warrant their cameras to such extremes? Nope, didn't think we'd have too many takers on that one.

Second, real world scanario: You're out in -25C, standing behind a tripod, panning and tilting.

I'm pretty sure you're going to pack up before either head does. Whils the head is actually being used, you could probably exceed the max and min temps by another 20C and still have them function fine, you won't.

You want to have a problem with either head?

Take them off the sticks, wind up the drag to max, open the window and throw 'em out into the snow at -30C and leave them there overnight.

Now you have a problem with the heads. Same goes for high temps, you'll melt before the heads will.

Take it off the table as a bargaining chip, it's like comparing the relative merits of the ash trays in a Bently and a Rolls Royce.

OK, the two proposed systems, and you're in trouble already.

Those Sachtler 2:1:1 sticks will drive you NUTS!

DON'T take my word for it, try them and give them a hammering, shoot the video and watch it, if you're happy with it fine, but .........that's the whole point of test drives.

Bump the Sachtler offering up to a decent 2:2:1 set and the price differential won't look like quite such a huge chasm and you're now comparing apples with apples.

However, let's learn to crawl before we attemp the marathon, try both the proposed systems and tell us what YOU think of their relative merits, at the end of the day this system is being tailored for you, and you only.

Whatever you end up with has to tick as many (of your) boxes as possible and certainly more than the opposition.

How's that for a gut feeling?


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

I'm hoping that Sachtler will soon offer their Ace head separately from the sticks. The head looks like a winner. Yes, it lacks side mounting and continuous controls like the Vinten 3AS that we have here at work, but for the money, it could be very nice for lightweight cameras. That said, I have no interest in 2-1-1 sticks. I've got a 2-2 battleship with a 100mm cup that I'd be happy to re-use (even if I'm not so happy when I lug it around.)

Personally, I've test driven enough tripods in general to know that 2-1-1 is off the table. I can't wait until NAB to do more test drives. :)

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Hi Zexun, I’m glad that out team in Singapore were able to loan you some kit. What you have there is the original Vision 3 that had a range of replaceable springs to suit a variety of camera combinations all the way up to 10kg. The head is now obsolete so it’s no longer available from any of your dealers.

As for the bearing rumble, it will always be just noticeable on a solid mounting such as the tripod you are showing in the photo. The whole tripod amplifies it. It’ll be much less noticeable out in the field or with a heavier camera. As long as it isn’t being shown up in the picture and you can’t feel it, the bearing system is performing correctly. The larger Vinten heads that use the TF drag use a much more expensive angular contact bearing and these are imperceptible.

Good luck with the shoot and let us all know how you get on.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

My two shoots went great! Wouldn't have gotten the same results from the old 501HDV I had. No way!

The Pozi-loc tripod was a breeze to use and went high enough and yet was stable.

The bearings in the Vision Vision 3 were, like I mentioned in my previous response, a bit rougher than the Sachtlers I tested, but if a proper Vision Blue head is any better than the Vision 3, I'm sure I'll be able to use it well for my needs.

I loaded it up with all sorts of camera setups for my shoot, from lightweight 1kg setups all the way to a Panasonic AC160, and while I did fight the counterbalance a lot with the 1kg rig, dialing in drag and having a forward/backward plate bias depending on my framing did work. What a relief!

Here's a shot of a Vision 3 holding up the Panasonic AC160 without any attachments. Spring in the head is a silver #2 which should be a 2kg @ 125mm spring. Balances the pana perfectly.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Gone, but not forgotten though, mine still does a sterling job holding up my Canon HV 20, no spring though.

Second that, though in all the hundreds of hours of video I've shot, never any artifacts from it visible, even on the big screen.

Interestingly, the Manfrotto 504HD I reviewed last year, which had, without question, the noisiest bearings I've ever heard (and felt) didn't show any bearing artifacts on the big screen either.

Artifacts from just about everything else, mind, just not the bearings.

Really good to hear that the shoot went well, Zexun. I was wondering how those springs were going to treat you, sounds like pretty good.

The Pozi - Loc's are a great piece of kit, aren't they? How'd that floor spreader pan (er, sorry) out?


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Initially I was kind of worried that a ground spreader would get in my way, but it turns out that my shoot was just a corporate production and a wedding mostly indoors, so the spreader was alright. In fact, I realised that if I wanted to transport the camera/tripod out, I just had to lift the setup, kick up the ground spreader and collapse the legs in - very handy. Not sure if a mid spreader will be able to do that easily.

Good info on the bearings too.

Zexun

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Just got word that a local rental house (Camera Rental Centre, Singapore), one that I patronise often, bought over two Vinten Vision Blue tripod setups. I hope they didn't get the copies that I tested with tight bearings.

Chance of that happening is pretty high though, seeing how there weren't too many VBs around (all stores except for the one I tried it in didn't have ready stock) and a demo factory unit from Vinten hasn't arrived at Vitec SG yet.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Hi Zexun, I’m certain everything is now resolved in Singapore. We have a good team there that genuinely care. I can also tell you that the Vision blue from the UK hasn’t ben dispatched yet as we have a million and one road shows going on right now. Ive been involved with one here in the UK all this week and with NAB just around the corner, demo kit is pretty rare.
If you look closely at the Vision 3 you were loaned, youll notice a similarity between it and the Vision blue. They are in fact identical, using identical components. The ONLY physical difference is that Vision blue has perfect counterbalance adjustment. Good to hear your shoot went well. I will be in Singapore 5th to 7th March, so if youd like to meet up, give me a call.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Hi Peter, yes I hope the bearings were adjusted for the VBs that I tested. I completely understand about the demo unit though. I hope you had a good time at BVexpo, and wish you all the best for NAB'12!

Indeed there seems to be few differences between the VB and the Vision 3, like you said, perfect balance (drawback of restricted angles) vs exchanging out springs (drawback of, well, wasting time and high chance of losing spare springs).

So you mean to say that the drag technology and bearings are the same?

I would love to meet up with you when you visit Singapore if you don't mind, of course! Just for a quick chat I guess, to understand more about Vinten from an end consumer pov. I'm heading into National Service (a nicer phrasing for "compulsory army") on the 8th so your visiting dates are perfect!

Zexun

Back again... Sachtler vs Vinten?
 

Just paid the Vitec Asia headquarters another visit a few days back because they had the Sachtler Ace tripod in as a demo unit. I'm surprised how nice the head felt in use, where "0" drag literally means "almost frictionless". Might be handy for a pseudo handheld look? Not sure.

I did mention that I'll be upgrading my rig and the engineers (who were more knowledgeable about Vinten products) gave me their suggestions.

You see, currently my normal day-to-day shooting involves a lot of walking around, with a simple DSLR rig and Zacuto EVF. The max for that is roughly about 2.4kg at 50mm COG plus Zacuto EVF Pro on the hotshoe. I have no doubt that the Vinten Vision Blue can handle that, seeing how it's balanced well on the old Vision 3 with a #2 and #3 spring depending on my lens choice.

Now the problem is when I have a lightweight cage rig setup with follow focus, top handle, shotgun microphone etc. Currently without a recorder on it, the rig is balanced with a #4 spring on the Vision 3. With any change of the COG (i.e. bringing the viewfinder higher up, or adding a separate monitor or audio recorder) the spring can't handle the weight any more. For expandability sake, the guys at Vinten said I should be looking at a head that can do 4-8kg @ 125mm, just in case.

That's all fine and good, except that I don't have the money to get a Vision 5AS now.

This is the Sachtler Cine DSLR's counterbalance graph:
http://www.sachtler-images.de/WebFot...sx/dslr_cb.jpg

If the graph doesn't lie, isn't it true that for the purpose of supporting a multitude of cameras, the Cine DSLR head should do a better job than the Vision Blue?

Of course, then comes the conundrum of "settling for the sachtler legs" if I go with what seems like a more versatile head to me. But hey, how would I know? I only ever tested the Ace and the FSB-6, not the Cine DSLR.

One thing I've heard that got my attention is that the Vision series from Vinten isn't a true fluid head... more like a hybrid head with fluid components but incorporating a friction based system, like the old manfrotto?

But from an economical standpoint, does this make sense?

Normal - Vinten Vision Blue set
Heavy - Buy Vision 5AS head
Travel - Buy Manfrotto 535 legs // Buy Sachtler Ace (Almost same price)

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

I only read the first page, but my 2 cents is I have a Sachtler FSB-4 head and couldn't be happier. This is coming from Manfrotto. I don't think you can go wrong with Sachtler.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Whew, where to start?

I'm pretty certain that all of the Sachtler heads have wider CB ranges than the Vintens, almost exclusively due to the different CB engineering systems employed by both companies.

The Vinten system hasn't "downscaled" all that elegantly towards the lighter/ lower COG end of the market, which is why the VB's range is so narrow, a problem I'm sure they are addressing.

Looking at Sachtler, the range goes thus:

Ace
FSB4
Cine DSLR
FSB6
FSB8

Not exactly sure where the VB sits if mapped to that lot, at a guess I'd say sort of Ace top end/ FSB4 bottom/ middle end, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Not that any of the above really helps with the massively differnt weight/ COG systems you're contemplating, neither manufacturers has a product that can do it all.

You could, if you really want to bust the bank, go for an OConnor 1030D head, hold (and, more importantly, CB perfectly) anything you want to throw at it from a dinky cam to a small truck, but at $5500 bucks possibly off the table.

Just going back to your tests of the Ace and FSB 6 for a moment, I think it pertinent to point out that both systems were using probably the worst sticks Sachtler make (and I don't think anyone at Sachtler would disagree with that statement). They do make far, far better, but far, far more expensive sticks, and that cost would need to be factored into a Sachtler solution.

Vinten pulled a blinder with the VB by packaging a top line set of sticks with it, making the head practically free, so if you look at it that way, the cost of an additional V 5 AS isn't so daunting, and in your situation almost an imperative.

Can't comment on the internal workings of the Vinten heads, though I think Peter may have something to say about that "like the old Manfrotto" bit.

Do a search here for travel kit, there's a couple of threads on just that subject, with some very good suggestions.


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

"VB range is narrow...A problem I'm sure they're addressing."

Which is, to me, a bit of a worry should there be a better system coming out that might fit what I'm doing better.

I read somewhere on this site with a thread title "15 min with the VB" and there was someone who said he was using a 1/2" chip with a 300mm lens. I decided to test what was discussed, which was to put a laser pointer on the Vision 3 head and test at 0 drag, 4 drag and 8 drag. And to my astonishment, there was bounce-back. Not sure if it's the legs or the head, but my legs were in the "2:2" position i.e. the single section leg was not extended, the double-leg section was extended fully.

Since the VB is exactly the same as what I have now, but with perfect balance (which has no effect on TF drag), is this what I should expect from a VB?

Honestly, I would think that I might actually prefer a sachtler head on say a vinten tripod, but there might be compatibility issues, and seriously, which teenager can afford that on his own?

But you make a very good point about the VB set. It is by far the most economical route to go with if I understand and can accept exactly what I'm buying.

Why is buying a proper tripod so much more puzzling than buying a camcorder? Ugh.

EDIT: Wow, page 5 already? I'll stop soon...

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

But, there's ALWAYS a better system coming out, sometime. There simply is no choice, the industry keeps changing and the manufacturers have to keep chasing it. The support market is the same as any other, and the light/ medium end is changing the fastest of all.

Hence the new Sachtler ACE, for example.

Why astonishment? Even a high hat bolted to a 200lb concrete block will exhibit SOME bounce back, however minute, it's a question of (your) tolerance, the lens system in use and the sensor size.

Which leads us nicely to another facet of support problems entirely, but is also germain to my first paragraph.

Long lenses have been around a very long time indeed, been pretty common in 35mm stills for at least 50 years.

Made their way into the moving image with 35mm and larger film capture systems and into the video realm via top end broadcast cameras, usually for OB work.

The large film frames/ sensors meant that the long lenses were all HUGE, as were the cameras.

The support systems were equally humungous and some required relocation using fork lift trucks.

Cue the electronics video boom and rapidly shrinking sensor, camera and lens systems, all, at that time in steam SD, which was pretty forgiving with support foibles if you didn't look too close, greatly ammeliorated by expert camermen and women still working with pro gear.

Propper support systems were pretty well still a one person dedicated lift.

Cue second massive boom in video due to huge advances in electronics and drops in prices, then the jump to HD.

Now there's nowhere to run nor hide with dodgy support systems, BUT everybody now wants cheap supports that are light enough for one person to "do it all".

We now return to the long lens thing. Whack a 300mm or even a 600mm lens on a small sensor video camera and we have, what..........a 1000mm, effective, more, 1600mm?

On a camera support designed and purchased because it's cheap (-ish, in some cases) and light enough for one person to do it all.

However, you now have the equivalent of a lens system that would have needed a support rig weighing in at 450 lb back in the day, sitting on a rig that weighs just 10lbs.

Something has to give, law of physisc, simply can't out run 'em.

Now, to specifics, the VB sticks.

Not sure if the ones you have are the same ones I tested, so difficut to draw direct comparisons, and I used both a mid AND ground level spreader for my tests, but this is what I found.

The VB sticks were the second best sticks I've ever tested for wind up, followed a nose behind by the Manfrotto 546B, of all systems.

Trailing, by a country mile and a few furlongs, were the Libec followed a few lengths behind by the Sachtler 75 CF's.

Leading the entire pack was my Vinten FiberTec nested CF I - beam's, which outpaced the VB's by a good few of lengths.

However, put this in context.

FiberTec's - sticks, mid level spreader, case & boots = US$3,500 or thereabouts. Throw in a V 3 head for about another US$1000 say = US$ 4,500! (and boy, you know there's some weight there carrying it around!).

VB System, complete; sticks, mid level spreader, case, boots and head = US$1,150 say. (and it's like carrying a bit of a toy by comparison).

BUT, put a small sensor video camera with a 600mm lens on my FiberTec's and it would STILL show anomalies, because it simply was not designed for that type of lens load, and I wouldn't want to have to carry a support system that was designed for such use.

You know, the strange thing is, the more I learn about this subject, the more I realise just how much I still don't know, scary!


CS

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Without reading through this entire thread, I'm left with the impression that it isn't the equipment that is the problem its the OP expectations and misuse of said equipment. A light camera with a telephoto lens is basically a recipe for "panning issues". I think Chris is saying you can't rewrite the rules of physics no matter how expensive of tripod head you get. Don't take it as an attack its just an observation that I and most other people on this forum at one time or another have blamed the equipment when in reality it was operator error. A common mistake is to buy one piece of equipment and try to force it to do every type of work with it. Most important thing you can have is experience that is knowing what equipment to use in a given situation or changing one's approach to match what equipment you have.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Thanks Chris S and Pete Cofrancesco, very informative and insightful replies. And no offense taken Pete, like you said, I'm just trying to find the limits of the loaner gear and make a decision based on that :) I'm not trying to bang down every single tripod manufacturer or model out there. But as I am a so called "tech geek" as far as photography stills equipment go (and a reviewer of accessories), as well as a DIY guy at heart, it makes sense to know the logic / physics behind everything I use.

Anyway, I think no matter what else I get for the travel or higher-weight-limit setups, I would be foolish to give up such an economical package as the VB set... although my back/shoulder will probably curse me one day.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

The issue we face today is that cameras are getting lighter and their picture quality capability is improving. Now that 16 x 9 is the standard, the quality of a tripod system is even more important as any errors in the picture will be more noticeable as the horizontal is more pronounced than it used to be.

Pan ant tilt movement quality relies as much on the drag and counterbalance as it does on momentum and as the cameras are so light, the momentum has to come from the weight of the head. A lightweight camera mounted on a lightweight pan and tilt head will offer less momentum than a heavier combination and therefore will be more difficult to control, especially for long lens work. Some people using a small camera on a small pan and tilt head without perfect balance will wind up the drag to give them the feel and control that they need, but this will simply make things more difficult for the user as it’ll wind up the tripod, create spring-back and in some cases, the tripod will lift off the floor when framing. A lightweight camera on a heavier lightweight pan and tilt head will be far more controllable and offer more predictable/reliable shots. So, it’s my recommendation that you stick to a heavier LW system for your Lightweight camera, ideally one with perfect balance. However, if its under-loaded i.e. the camera weight and/or the height of the CofG is too low, the downside may be that it won’t balance which could be a distraction if you want to tilt fully or that the bearing components aren’t loaded enough, which may give rise to concern that the product is faulty (I liken this to driving a car at 20kmph in top gear, you can do it, but you have to accept that the engine won’t like it and it’ll feel rough).

Vision blue has a very long history. It was the original Vision 6 before it was replaced by the Vision 5AS a few years ago. It’s a precision piece of kit and uses the same performance critical counterbalance, drag and bearing components that are used with the AS heads. So it’s not a performance compromised cut price, cost reduced product. It’s a pucker Vision head offering the same quality of performance as the Vision AS range but at the lower camera weight end of the market. However, like all products, it has a defined range of performance and as long as your camera combination falls within that range, the performance is guaranteed. Outside that range and you have to accept that it will be good, but not as good as it could be and this goes not only for the Vision blue, but any pan and tilt head out in the market today.

The performance specification of the Vision range is a function of camera combination weight (camera plus all operational accessories) AND the vertical height of the camera combinations centre of gravity (CofG) because they offer perfect balance. For heads that do not offer perfect balance, this is less critical as the head wont balance anyway regardless of either characteristic. For perfect balance to work correctly, the balance mechanism has to generate the exact torque (which is a function of force x distance or in this case its mass x CofG height above the camera platform) for a given angle of tilt. The end product is that the effort needed to tilt the head remains constant throughout the range and therefore, it doesn’t distract you at all and you can concentrate on the viewfinder and framing the shot (camera appears weightless at any level of drag). For Vision blue specifically, the range is 2.1kg to 5kg at 55mm CofG. That’s why it’s critical for the camera combinations characteristics to be known and to realise that accessorising your camera will have an impact of the heads ability to balance correctly. If the CofG is dropped too low, then the head could spring back (i.e. the head is generating too much torque) and likewise, if the CofG height is raised too high, then the head could fall away (i.e. the head is generating insufficient torque).

I hope this helps clear up any confusion, or maybe I’ve just made it worse. I do hope not.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Hi Peter, thank you for a very detailed answer on that one. It helped a lot, especially since I'm a physics guy.

I have with me right now the Sachtler ACE, and I'll be returning it once the Vitec offices are open early next week. Definitely won't be getting this guy - the entire tripod lifted when I tried to pan, like what you mentioned. I'd much prefer a solid Vinten. Maybe I'll bump into you at the Vitec office? Will have to contact Mr Derrick Ng about that if we're going to arrange anything!

Zexun

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Excellent information, Peter, thank you for the detailed post.

You're dead right about the need for weight in the tripod head. I tell myself that when I'm hoiking around a VB tripod that weighs 4 times more than my camera - the results are really worth it.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Of course, one can hook a small rope from the underside of a tripod to a weight or gallon water bottle. When I do that, I let an edge of the weight touch the ground so that it won't swing but it still applies force. It's not the same as a heavy camera/head, but it helps keep the sticks stable.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Absolutely Jon. Youll find a stainless steel hook under every Vinten tripod just for that reason. Zexun, i plan to be in the Singapore office around 10am on Monday 5th if you would like to meet up.

Cheers

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

I have the 3AS with 2 stage aluminum legs. And yes, the hook is there and I've gladly made use of it.

I don't have any recommendations for improvement. It's a hook. It works. It's strong enough for its purpose. It's not too big or heavy. Nicely done.

There. I have reviewed the hook. :)

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

That'll be great! I'll see you then!

Haha what an objective review. Bravo!

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Good meeting up with you yesterday Zexun. Hope the discussions were helpful and that everything goes well from now on.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

My "best of all worlds" is the Sachtler Cine DSLR fluid head (but with a plain side load QR plate rather than the supplied plate) and the Gitzo CF 3 section legs with a 75 mm bowl.

Absolutely rock solid legs, and a smooth fluid head that can handle loads as small as my Canon xf100 on up to a DSLR rig.

With no spreader, the cameras can be positioned quite low to the ground.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Perhaps the ultimate light but rock solid legs would be the Really Right Stuff Versa Series 3 with a 75 mm bowl. I do not own these legs, but I do have a lot of their other gear. Absolutely first rate stuff. Red Rock Micro now makes an adapter to mate with RRS quick release plates for DSLR's.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Do you get any wind up with the Gitzo legs? I'l looking at getting either this setup or these lets with a FSB6 head.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Wind up? Could you explain?

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Tripod legs flexing when panning so at the end of the pan the camera springs back a few degrees.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

No, this does not happen.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

Well I ended up renting the Vinten Vision Blue sticks for some shoots and realised that the problems I had with the particular copy I tested didn't show up on the rental tripods. It's now safe to say that I'll definitely stick with the vinten VB (as well as the new Vision Blue 5 for heavier loads next time, head only) when I rent or buy in the future.

Re: Upgrading from 501HDV: Vinten VB or Sachtler DSLR/FSB-6?
 

I've now decided that I won't ever buy a new tripod and head, but buy second hand Vintens - of the quality I could never afford. I've got two Vinten tripods, one single stage and the other two stage, and despite scratches and dings, they're solid - and the broken knob on one was replaced easily from Vinten's service department. I've got an old Cygnet post head, and a 5LF head and are just so good compared to other products in my price range. Compared to the usual budget Vintens/Manfrotto heads there is simply no comparison. You can operate with no drag or loads of drag and all that happens is that the resistance is greater, starting and stopping is no problem. On cheap heads, if you turn up the drag, you have to use too much effort to start a pan or a tilt and it jerks. Stopping also is abrupt. Even with heavy loads you don't get windup - it just doesn't happen. With the locks on, even fully zoomed, touching the pan handle doesn't make it jump!