I bought the LS-22 from B&H a couple of weeks ago. So far I have been very happy with it. The ball head is great because it makes leveling it so easy. I would not buy a tripod without the ball head now.

Overall the quality on the Libec seems really great, I dont have fears about it falling apart. The included accessories didnt really factor into my purchase but in hindsight the included bag was a great feature. The free zoom controller is also pretty good and works much better than using the on camera zoom switch.

I wish it had some adjustments for the pan and tilt frictions. It just has locks for them, but the even without adjustable friction, the default settings are pretty smooth. It does have some nice counterbalance settings which allowed me to get the camera to balance perfectly on the head even if the camera is pretty front heavy when I attach accessories to it.

I had a chance to look at the Davis and Sanford one in person at B&H and I have to say I wasnt to impressed with it. The design of it seemed pretty poor in that the pan locks kept rubbing against other parts of the tripod and gouging the plastic up; it was basically grinding itself to pieces..

Wow, cool Brian. Thanks for sharing, yeah the LS-22 looks pretty good. :)

How does the Libec LS-22 compare to the Manfrotto 503 or Vinten Pro 6?

I put my Manfrotto on ebay a while back and bought the Libec LS 38 instead.
First impressions were that the build qality was not as good and the legs were a bit plasticky, while the bag it came in is cheap and nasty compared to the Manfrotto.
3 months later i can tell you that in spite of the observations above the Libec is far superior in the most important respect. The head is silky smooth and feels like a £1000 plus bit of kit. Pans and tilts are fabulous with this head, while tilting pans are effortless. Its also significantly lighter than the Manfrotto.
Of course i wish i'd hung onto the old bag.

Hi Dom, was it the 503HD version or just the regular 503?

I got the Libec LS22 because of it's light weight, and because it folds down pretty short. It's better built than I expected, and the head is perfectly smooth for both tilt and pan. There is no tension adjustment, though there is a lever that increases tilt tension a bit.

While the motion is smooth, like any of the cheap heads, you can't just pan to a spot and let go of the handle and expect it to stay there, as the better heads do. There's always a little bounceback at the end of a pan, so you have to pay attention and develop a bit of steadiness. Not a problem once you get accustomed to it, but as with almost all things, the cheaper it is, the less user-friendly it is.

I got mine from Zotz Digital and was very pleased with their service. I ordered the one with the center spreader, but the warehouse shipped it with ground spreader. The guy at Zotz was apologetic, called the distributor,and within 3 days I had he center spreader, with a note that said keep the ground spreader too, no charge.

Thats great information, as I was considering the LS-22. Do others who own the LS-38 have similar issues with the "Bounce-Back"? and is there tension adjustment on the 38?

Thanks again for the info Bill..

This review might answer some of your questions about the LS-38:
http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=150

He calls it "drift back" instead of bounce back, and that's probably a better description. I'm amazed too that the 38 does not do it. Unless you want the smaller and lighter 22, I'd go for the 38.

What I normally do on a pan where I'm zoomed in quite a bit is, when I reach the end, push on the lock lever at the end of the move. That solves the problem. On a wider shot you can usually hold it steady enough so it's not noticeable.

well I just took the plunge and ordered the LS-38 from videokit.co.uk for my A1... who are selling it £100 cheaper than everyone else.

Gitzo G2380
 

Has anyone had any experience with the Gitzo G2380 head? I have a Canon XH A1 and am looking for a good "fluid" head that is not too expensive.

Cartoni Action Mini DV vs. Libec LS22 for XH A1
 

Do any of you have any recommendations on which would be a better fit for my Canon XH A1. Has anyone had first hand experience with either or both of these. I am a novice with this camera, have had it about a month and am looking for a fairly inexpensive tripod setup. I will use it for mostly dance recital filming and stage shows so paning is my biggest concern but I do anticipate some tilts.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. This is a great forum.

Thanks

Better Cartoni for you...
 

There is a better Cartoni for you than the Action Pro for about $100 more which is called the HiDV. It has continuously variable counter-balance which is a big step up from the Action Pro's on and off counter balance. I almost bought an Action Pro but fortunately saw this just in time and bought it instead for my son's Canon HV20. Here's the link to the Cartoni site's description. You can buy this at B&H (DVinfo sponsor) for a good price.

http://www.cartoni.com/eng/HIDV.html

The other Cartoni to look at is the Focus, which is a few hundred dollars more but will counter-balance a lot more weight (up to 22 lbs.) and has the lighted leveling bubble.

Tip McPartland

I've no experience with the Cartoni, but I've used the Libec 950DV under my VX2100. It's effectively an LS-22 head on a lighter tripod. I've even married the LS-22 head to the more heavyweight LS-37 legs.

It's OK for wider angles, and the pan and tilt is quite good for the price. But when you're zoomed in even at 12x it can be difficult to keep it absolutely stable unless you're locked off (or hands off), and my hands aren't overly shakey. I've yet to get the opportunity to get my hands on any really good tripods (such as Sachtlers and Vintens), so have nothing to compare with.

Mind you, the LS-22 costs around £200($400) versus the more expensive Cartoni HiDV (£600/$1200). Maybe yer gets what yer pays for!

Wow Tip, you're a really nice dad! Would you be interested in adopting another son?

Actually the only reason I'm considering the Cartoni Action is because I may be able to get this set up for around $450. My budget is realythe sub $500 range so I've been looking into th Libec and Bogen/Manfrotto combos. I did look at the HiDV and the Focus for about 10 seconds just to drool over them but they are way out of my budget, maybe later but I need a decent setup now.

Thanks for the input.

Garrett,
I have an XHA1 and tried the LS-22 and didn't find it sturdy enough. I ended up with the LS-38 and love it. It's not built quite as well as the Cartoni or Sachtler but for $600 it's a great set of sticks.

Thanks...
 

Garrett,

Let me check with wifey on that one... but seriously, thanks for the kind words. Anything to get the boys into something creative instead of just the video games!

What makes the HiDV so tempting is that it's basically a down-sized Focus with the same continuously adjustable counterbalance. So it only holds 11 lbs. instead of 22, for these cameras that's all you need.

Having good counter balance so the camera doesn't want to tilt up or down by itself will reduce fatigue and forgive small lapses of concentration. Hmmm, maybe neither of these issues is a problem for you, but I must confess...

Tip

Does anyone know if the Cartoni HiDV head be purchased alone, without legs? No luck finding it so far. I want to use it with my lighter weight carbon fiber gitzo legs. Thanks,

I have the Gitzo G2380 paired with the Gitzo G-1321 Level Base and the Gitzo G-1348 legs - using them with the Canon GL2 camcorder. I find it a very good setup for me.

I am saving up to buy the XH-A1, and plan on using this setup with them - I'm assuming there's no reason they won't work just as well with the somewhat heavier camcorder. If someone has reason to believe that's a bad assumption on my part - please let me know!!

Tripod that can handle the XH-A1 ?
 

The tripod I currently have (a cheap one) can't really handle the weight of the XH-A1 when it comes to touching the camera while recording (shakes at the slightest touch).

Not having used/seen a good tripod, I'm wondering is there is such a tripod. That is to say, I'd like to be able to press buttons on the A1 (zoom/focus presets, zoom, shutter, start/stop etc.) while recording and not have the camera shake even a bit.

Does such tripods exist and what do they cost (ball park). Any make/model anyone is using that conforms to this requirement will be helpful.

Thanks.

Shiv.

Manfrotto works fairly well considering its price.
"...while recording and not have the camera shake even a bit" - might be difficult to get.

Shiv,
You should be looking at a remote controller in addition to a tripod. The zr-2000 being discussed in other threads works well and offers the most control for the A1 of the remotes available. A great tripod choice based on quality per performance per price for the A1 is the Libec LS-38. The zr-2000 fits on the Libec handle without modification.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102564

Josh, do you mean that the setup is stable enough to handle the extra momentum caused by moving the control out to the handle? I'd say the opposite - basic rule of physics.

Mats and Josh,

Thank you both for your replies.

Mats, are you saying that expecting a tripod to keep the camera steady is a pipe dream? Or atleast in so far as "affordable" ($300-$1000) tripods go?

Josh,
I've looked at the remote controller and the various threads pertaining to it. I guess I could manually focus from one point to the desired point (with some practice) using the controller. That little thumbwheel switch for focus doesn't look too encouraging thou.

What I've been using is the focus preset capability in the A1. But due to the camera shake (and the preset switch isn't the easiest switch to operate either) there is a shake. In post I use the footage past the shake but that reduces some of the drama.

I guess a remote controller might come in handy for other situations as well.

Thank you both.

Shiv.


I'll take a look at the remote controller

Yes. I have the zr-2000 mounted on the handle of a LS-38 (about 3/4 of the way between the grip and the bend) and have no problems with it. The zr-2000 is cheap plastic and weighs nothing.

Shiv,
The focus wheel on the zr-2000 is really only good for fine tuning not for large focus moves. Have you looked at a follow focus attachment with a whip that may do more of what your looking to do along the focus lines? The remote would be used to start/stop and zoom. You should be able to be very smooth with this.

Hi Shiv...........
 

If you've got the stamina for it, and really want a sub $1000 tripod which will not move even under extreme provocation, then I can heartily recommend the Manfrotto 528XB sticks. They are, quite literaly, built like a brick out house and could just about do double duty as truck axle stands.

The down side is they weigh in @ 7.4 kilos (16.28 lbs) without a head attached and don't go all that low (by a serious margin).

They're targeted specifically at people who use jibs/cranes etc. Outside the US they're rated to 50 kilos (110 lbs) capacity, in the US to 30 kilos (66 lbs) but I think these ratings are seriously conservative.

With a decent head on top (Vinten Vision 3 for a Canon A1) they're the closest thing to having your camera bolted to a concrete block you're going to find under $1000.

You will, however, wish you'd spent more time in the gym after a bit of use.


CS

Chris, Josh,

Thank you both for your advise. As you might have guessed, I'm totally new to all of this :).

Here is my observation (with my $100 tripod):

It's not the legs that move, but the "head" (this tripod does not have a head that is seperate from the legs as far as I can tell). That slight "play" in the mechanism at the head causes a pretty big shift/shake at the camera which at full zoom is very noticable.

So it looks like to me that I need a tripod/head combination that has no "play" whatsoever. What moves (and therefore causes a shak) in other more expensive tripods then?

Shiv,
Bottom line, you'll see a big difference in stability in a better tripod. Chris' suggestion will be very stable. To a point, the more you spend on a tripod the more stable and better the movements will be. On the other end you can look at what is the minimum you have to spend to get decent stability and smooth movement. Without starting and argument on here about which tripod is best, most video tripods with fluid heads in the $600 - $2500 range will work and be much better than what you're currently using.
--JL

Hi Shiv...
 

The old adage "you get what you pay for" works for tripods/ heads just like anything else. As the prices go up, the build quality does likewise, the material count ditto, the weight, you name it. With that comes extra rigidity and less movement.

I'm very aware of the sort of support/ camera movement you're experienceing, it is the price of "cheap". That is not to say your particular setup wouldn't be suitable for a cheaper, lighter, less resolution camera, it's just no good for yours.

As for a replacement - ah! Well, the first place for you to start is your budget. What can you afford? Then there's a myriad of options at just about every price point.

The only thing you must have is a "half bowl receiver" on the top of the tripod and either a matching or smaller "half ball" head or a flat bottomed head and a half ball/ flat unit (for Manfrotto).

My only warnings are about getting a head that can, actually, counterbalance your A1 (Vinten Vision 3 with #2 spring for example) then choose the sticks to go with the head (I recommend getting the same make sticks as the head for compatability reasons).

As I don't know your max budget I can't be more specific, but for an A1 the choices are indeed myriad.

One last point Shiv, if you've never used a "pro" head and sticks with correct counterbalance functioning, you ain't lived and simply will not believe the difference. That is an understatement.


CS

Josh, Chris,

Once again thank you both for your great comments and suggestions. It's pretty clear to me that I need a much better tripod. The one I have works great for my still and regular ( you know the consumer variety) camcoder.

My budget...well I don't have one since I'm not sure how much things will cost. I'm getting a much better idea of what my budget needs to be however after the reccomendations and suggestion all of you have kindly shared. So it's looks like between $600-$1000 should get me a pretty decent tripod.

So a tripod with a Pan and Tilt Head is obviously missing one of the movements. So can one mount the camera on the tripod in such a wy as to get the third? I'm assuming "tilt" allows the camera to to pointed up to the sky or down to the ground, how does one get a dutch tilt with such tripods?

I found this tripod
http://www.adorama.com/GTRHD124.html

For $60 one could get at least a remote controller no?

I don't know, but dutch tilt is a very rare camera move in most productions.

I have that same tripod, and it's terrible. The tripod itself is probably as good as the $20 - $30 tripods, and the controller has only two zoom speeds: CRASH and STOP. No focus or other useful controls, of course.

Libec seems to give you a pretty decent tripod for the money. I've always used very expensive big heavy tripods, as well as the $1500 Gitzo, which I consider lightweight. However for the XH A1, I wanted something smalll and really light that I could carry with the two tripod straps that come attached to the Petrol bag. I got a Libec 22, which is very smooth but has that cheap tripod bounceback at the end of a pan. It's controllable and just takes a steady hand (sort of like using the old O'Connor Cs from the dark ages). But you can't just make a pan and let go and expect the head to stay there. It fulfills my needs because I can use other tripods, but if you can only have one I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. However, they have a bigger, better one that's still under $600. I think its number is 35, but I'm not sure. I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the 22, especially for the price. Its movement is as smooth as any professional tripod, but the weight of the XH A1 with the Canon quick release plate is marginal (since the 22 has the small screw, I could use the camera without the plate, but I need the plate for using other tripods).

Manfrotto 501,501HDV,503, or 503HDV for A1?
 

Heres my story in brief. At work I use a Canon H1. We have the 501 head which works fine, yea theres stiction but overall its not that bad of a setup. My boss has let me use the tripod for personal use with my A1 and it is still fine aside the stiction. I tried out a 501HDV last night (tripod only...nocamera mounted) and it seemed not so great. The head couldn't stay pointed down on its own without being locked down. I am not sure where the level was to turn off the counter balance, and the shop owner told me to just lock it down (no thanks). He only really spoke chinese (i am currently in taiwan) so getting help wasn't easy, but he kept saying the 503HDV is too much for th A1 just buy the 501HDV. They didn't have the 50 HDV in stock. From what I have read the 503's work smoother than the 501's. The 501 HDV has only on/off for counter balance, while the 503HDV has 3 stage marked as 0-8kgs. From all I've read I'd rather get the 503HDV, is this a wise choice? It is the same size as the 501HDV from its specs and about the same weight, so putting it on the same legs should not be an issue correct? They heads have the same bottom mount (3/8-16) so they should mount on the same legs.

So does anyone have experience with these heads and the A1? Please share. Also am I correct in the observations of the similarity of the heads? And most important, does the 503 HDV head have counter balance right for the A1?

Note to the mods - I know this is more of a tripod question, but I chose to post here to try and find only A1 users with knowledge on these heads because it will only be used with an A1. I hope it won't be moved.

anything 501 is friction head.. albeit teflon smooth, it is NOT a fluid head geared unit

fluid heads, when configured, can in fact work in teh means of "set and place' but this is at a sacrifice to actual fluidity and tension.

In turn,the 501 is a good alternative but it DOES take practice

the 503 (irrespective if it bears the "hdv" tagline), is a 501 with higher weight ratio/capacity with the adition of 3 gears. Its a true Fluid head, so retraction is a given. Ie, it "bounces" back
For heavier gear like the H1, the 503 is a better choice IMO, for panning at long tele, again, the 503 is superior.
For basic lockdownwork though, without the need of fastening then the 501 is a good alternative

I'm using a 503 (not HDV) with the A1 and the combination is OK, i.e. not that great, but I think it is a limitation of the 503. BTW, I have a friend with 3 503 heads and they are all different in feel. One is pretty smooth, better than mine, but the other 2, which are newer models, are much worse than mine. And one of them made a grinding sound when you tried to pan. If you are planning to buy Manfrotto, I recommend you check out the actual unit before you take it home.

Richard

I have this 503HDV kit and, so far, it has worked very well for me with my XHA1. My first tripod was a Libec LS-38 and it was a great system, but way too heavy for my needs

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...3HDV_HEAD.html

Libec 38 w/ Canon XH-A1
 

Well I have used this combination on two occassions and have to say that I am very pleased with the results. Please note that any comparisons are from my experience with the Bogen 503 (notHDV).

1. Legs with mid level spreader are great. The spreader has the option of holding shape at 180 or 45 degrees. Last Saturday I was filming a marching band competition from a small podium. Having the 45 degree option was a lifesaver. The legs hold sturdy and dever budged.

2. The head is exactly as advertised and makes a great companion to the XH-A1. I thought I would miss being able to dial in the tension that I wanted like on the 503. No way! These heads are set how I like my Bogens on their best day. The best part is they are always like this. No more hoping that another cameraman messed with my tripod settings. Just unlock and go. I shot a choir concert at 99 zoom and had nothing but smooth pans. When I needed to bump the picture up, smooth as silk.

3. I do miss the telescoping pan arm. Since I am only 5' 7", I liked being able to have the tripod as tall as possible but still comfortably reach my remote zoom controls.

4. The bag that came with the tripod is too small when you put the feet on. Scott at Tapeworks Texas has already contacted Libec and they are in the process of getting out larger bags that will accomodate this tripod.

5. The tripod is headier than I thought it would be. With the A-1 I would be hard pressed to do a lot of running around and repositioning without some fatigue.

All in all I hightly recommend this tripod. I feel like a better camerman with it!

Jonathan Schwartz
Owner, CA Video Productions

A1 with DS5
 

Hey,

I'm using a Miller DS5 with my A1 and i'm really stoked with it! It's super smooth and and really easy to get level. The height availability is also really good and the legs are easy to adjust. It's recommended to handle only up to 2.5kg's though, but that's fine for an A1 with a few little extra's on... It was pretty pricey, but worth it i think!