Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

My pleasure, David. You will not be disappointed with the EF-S 18-135 IS nano + Power Zoom Adapter.

My fear is that Canon just did a one-off with the PZA interface, and we may never see it again on any other lens. If you ask me, they should put it on everything!

If you choose to go that route, EF-S 18-135 nano + PZA, then there is another lens that will make an ideal companion to it, and that is the EF-S 10-18mm IS.

It is a steal for $300 and it's one of the best-kept secrets in the Canon line. If the field of view was any wider, it could see in back of you. There's no noticeable barrel distortion at all; it's surprisingly rectilinear. STM for silent focus during video. And having IS on an ultra-wide is like a dream come true. The only thing that would make it better would be to add that PZA interface. The only bad thing about it is that it's a daylight lens; f/4.5 to 5.6 -- but did I mention it's only $300?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1051476-USA/canon_9519b002_ef_s_10_18mm_f_4_5_5_6_is.html/BI/2855/KBID/3801

All of the booth interviews we've shot at NAB over the last couple of years have been done with an EOS 70D plus the EF-S 10-18mm. See https://www.dvinfo.net/video-report and all video clips there except the very first were shot with that lens.


There's also my other favorite, the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS, lots written about that one already though.

I'll be very interested to find out how that camera does for you.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

I'm very glad that you said that, Chris, because I bought the lens from B&H 20 minutes after I posted that! I bought it second-hand (B&H rated it as 9.0 condition) and the saving will allow me to buy the PZA . Although I want to check out the PZA at a local dealer first, because I saw a review on B&H where the guy complained that it kept falling off and he was now on his 3rd PZA. So I'm curious as to how to keep it stable and attached.

That looked fantastic! I didn't notice any distortion. I think the 10-18 will be perfect for this first side project in November. It's mostly set in a restaurant kitchen and I suspect that there might be a few occasions where I'll be filming the actors at very close quarters. Although I won't buy that lens just yet, because I have to pick up a Tascam DR-70D tomorrow (it's on special) to use with the BMPCC 6K. It records 4 audio tracks and there'll be 4 actors, so it'll be perfect.

Yes, a faster lens is a good idea! Thanks very much for all of your research, Chris. It's really saved me a lot of time that I can now spend learning how to use Resolve (which I downloaded tonight).

Yes, I think I'd better stop hijacking Ryan's thread and put any further traffic in the BM forum.

Thanks, again!

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

The PZA is a little tricky to attach the first few times, but based on my experience he was doing it wrong. Mine has never come close to falling off except maybe the 2nd time I used it, when I hadn't really got it attached properly.

I own these overlapping focal length lenses:
Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 AF
Canon 10-18mm variable AF/IS
Canon 18-135mm variable AF/IS with Power Zoom Adapter
Canon 17-55mm f2.8 AF/IS

These lenses duplicate each other in many ways. But I have 4 lenses where I should have two, because I just can't lose the f2.8 constant aperture pair when I want better low light or shallower DoF.

Many aren't aware of the Tokina 11-16. It's solid, an early performer for DSLR video that is still making great images on EF mount.

Sorry to continue the hijack - I'm not a reader of the BM forum! But the new BMPCC 6k EF looks pretty good ;-)

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Ryan - have you seen the BBC's Blue Planet? 16:9 and amazingly cinematic, in the real vista sense. You're still thinking that 16:9 is NOT cinematic, no matter what the frame has in it, and that 24fps is somehow magical. It's just historical. UK TV has been 25fps for a very long time, and 39.97/30 for the US markets. We could always tell 525 from 625, but I don't think many people can spot 25-30 differences less they really know what they're looking at.

For wildlife - the real issues are light - so with long lenses, squeezing as much light as you can will probably impact on shutter speeds. Wildlife is also one of the few subjects that you can mess with shutter speeds - making a bird's takeoff more slow than real life, or making a gentle run a bit more urgent. As sound is not really sync, you can take liberties. Would motion blur help or hinder? Faster shutter speeds might not be required.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Oh ok i considered faster shutter speed or i could just do a 1/60 shutter speed and use nd filters as well.

What's a 3:2 pull down exactly? I dont mind recording the sound separately but its hard to get the mic close cause animals are afraid to come close to me. Unless i plant the mic and then walk away, but then i cannot aim the mic properly at them to get sharper sound.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

I can't give you the utlra techy explanation but 3:2 pulldown is how something shot at 24fps is broadcast at 29.97. REdestributes the 24 frames into 30 in some fancy way to maintain the speed and motion cadence.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Google is your friend with questions. There are loads of explanations regarding 3:2 pulldown online.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Oh okay, I looked it up, I see, thanks.

So the point of 30 frames per second is that wildlife just looks better movement wise? It has nothing to do with how the product is played back technically speaking, as to why they want 30 fps specifically?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

30 fps is the video standard in your country, there is no reason to shoot 24fps for a standard video that's going no where else (eg theatrical release). There is a small improvement in temporal resolution. at 30 fps, it fits with the 60 Hz mains frequency of your country, which is the historical reason, just as Europe has 25fps.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

We explained the sound thing already. Your camera mic will capture the local ambience. Animals simply don't make the noises you are expecting, so for most of them, sound effects or Foley work so much better. Remember that as Brian said earlier - this stuff was often 16mm with with either sepmag, or no audio at all. wildlife is also about cheating. The usual techniques always edit together footage that is non-sequential. The deer exits the frame left. A long shot then shows it wandering up a hill, then we see a closeup of grazing. It might not even be the same deer, and could be a same species shot from the summer before, and the wandering up a hill shot could have been shot on your holiday in a different country. HUGE scope for editing material - and another reason to stick with the common aspect ratio and not be silly or adventurous.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Oh okay, I live in Canada, but I thought you could have 24 fps and 60 hz, at least in Premiere Pro's export settings you can. I can do 30 then. What can I do to record animal sounds, since they don't seem to want to get within 80 or more feet of me it seems? Even if I put them in with Foley or sound effects separately, I still have to record their sounds of their voices originally, if I they want voice sounds, so how do I get close enough to do it then, if they keep moving away?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Ryan - you just don't. the problem is that to get the closeup audio everyone hears on TV, you need to be close enough to frighten them off, or potentially get eaten. Real shots of Eagles tearing am mouse apart and crunching it down don't sound remotely like that. I had to produce the sound of a huge eagle taking off, opening it's wings and launching. In reality, this makes so little noise that the shot sounds weak with the real sound - so my favourite was a pair of old fashioned leather motorcycle gauntlet style gloves which I flapped together. This was what the audience expected. If you hear a deer eating it eats practically silent. They make odd noises when they rut, but mostly they are quite silent, so for video you want to be over the top. Give them what they expect. The really good wildlife people spend an entire career learning the tricks - best you can do is get a very long lens and some camo to wear.

Again - you are believing what people ask you as 'the norm'. If your job is to get images and sound, then it's hard work and will take ages. However, there are loads and loads of official SFX, and of course youtube clips you can study and, er, adapt maybe? Your camera audio, as I already said is the wild track, and you add the manufactured sounds over the top - AND DO NOT TELL THEM.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Again, most of the answers are available online, one example:

BBC - Earth - Sounds of nature: Making a soundtrack for wildlife films

You can research the project basics without asking in a forum all the time. It's so easy to this, since there are so many resources now available for free.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Thanks for that excellent info, Seth. And I know what you mean about the f2.8!

I've started a new thread over in the BM forum for anyone who wants to continue this discussion about EF and EF-S lenses:

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blackma...ml#post1952360

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

I use freesound.org for audio that I can't get myself.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Moving this thread from Open DV to Under Water, Over Land with 1-month redirect.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Oh ok I've tried using freesound before but it was difficult to get the sound to match with others projects cause the room tone and background sound was always different. Is there anything i csn do about that?

I can do Foley, its just the animals voices are hard to mimic of course.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

the magic of mixing is how you blend those freesound sounds in. reverb, eq, etc. Good luck. Are you want to/are able to take this project on? sounds like a miserable amount of work for a freebie.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Bird calls you can record, but you need specialized microphones and requires spending time in the field with the knowledge to get geod results. You have to be correct with these calls because it's a specialist audience, the rustles and eating sounds etc you can use Foley.

Usually with sound effect recordings you can just use the effect itself, cut the unwanted room tone etc and use your own room tone as a background. It really depends on the effect recording, again you have to spend time going through the different sound effect libraries until you get what you want. if it's not there, you have to record it yourself.

With a clean, closely miked, spot effect you can do a lot during the mixing stage, if you've got reverb already on the effect etc you're limited.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

If you want to record realistic wildlife tracks and you are doing it anywhere other than treated, dead studio, then why not record them outside? no reverb, occasional birds and crickets or whatever, but animal sounds can be really fun. There are loads of effects pre done out there. Tell you what, send me your cut video and I'll sort the audio for it at cost. It would be rather nostalgic doing it all again.

Have you made any progress with the camera, lens and tripod/head?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

I used to record them outside at night, when there was less extraneous background sounds.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Okay thanks. Actually the client wants music over all the footage pretty much, so maybe a lot of the sound can be buried in the music to a degree therefore.

I know it's a freebie but I thought I would do it for my own experience, and maybe something of my own to put in my portfolio. We'll see how it turns out. Unless maybe I shouldn't be taking freebies...?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

I just mean make sure you're up to whatever it is they're expecting include the sound mix so you don't get yourself into troubles. I don't know how long the final product is supposed to be but you could spend eons messing with just the sound.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Yeah for sure, thanks :).

Next is some interviews with people standing in the forest talking about it. However, for interviews, what's a good lense choice for a wildlife documentary style, just for the MCU's of the people talking? I was thinking an 85mm but is that too compressed looking perhaps?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

A 85mm will be fine, as would a 50mm or other lenses, depending on how much background you want. This will depend on the location and personal taste.

This is an extremely basic question that wouldn't expect from someone proposing to direct a feature film.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

As you already have a zoom, which isn't quite long enough this is a very silly question. you're switching to primes? Why?

It's something you can't decide until you are there - as there could be a tree in your back and you need to use a wider lens and go closer, or go narrower and further away to alter what's in the background. Ryan - you know all this Brian is right here - we've gone back to ultra basics again. You really must develop the ability to think for yourself.

I assume you have the sound for a two shot in the forest covered? Short shotgun and furry cover, or will we be back to strange noises again?

PS This Youtube video sorts your sound effects for deer.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Yeah you're right, I guess I'm just nervous about it, I will use the 85 most likely then. I could use the zoom for the entire thing, but is it bad to use two lenses for different shots in a production? What do you mean by 'two shot'?

Yeah I have a furry cover.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

A two shot usually refers to a shot that has the two participants in it, this can be any size, although commonly it's likely to to a mid shot or wider.

You can use two lenses, as long as they match in colour, contrast etc. That's why cine lenses usually come as a set.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Oh okay cool. So in that video with the deer sound effects, are those just people doing the sounds with their voices?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

It's from a sound effects library, so unlikely to be someone doing the sounds. There are sound recordists who specialize in recording animal calls.

https://www.asoundeffect.com/african...fects-library/

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

The thing Ryan is that a perfect success, means you didn't know. Google Percy Edwards. For years animals, especially birds, in TV, radio and movie productions were him making them with his mouth. So many programmes had his impressions in them that they fooled the experts and he became a minor celebrity.

The important thing is that the sounds are realistic and supportive of the video. If you are making a world class documentary and fronting it with Sir David Attenborough, then having the lesser spotted deer in vision have the correct 'dialect' of grunt is perhaps more important than simply having a fallow deer's grunt from a pre-recorded track? Who would know in your production? I don't quite get why you don't just do it, and not mention these things. I get the impression you go to the producer and say "I can't get a lesser spotted deer grunt, so will it be OK to use a fallow deer?" and of course they will say no - being competent natural history experts. Show them a deer, any deer and have it make a noise.

I spent a week once creating the sound of a frog. An expert friend laughed his socks off. the huge noise I'd used on the huge frog was the sound a tiny little tree frog makes - he was the only one who noticed. everyone else heard what they expected to hear, and that's the real success - audiences not even noticing.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Out of the world of wildlife documentary animal calls, sound effects are often not the real sound, but a composite of sounds or faked using various household objects and food.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Okay thanks. It's just the clients who want the video done, are animal experts it seems in their field and may not like it if it's not the real sounds, compared to the average person I thought, but I can try the library and see. Thanks :)

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Sadly, they're not expert at how difficult the job they've set is!

They've got a free/cut price job, so it's a bit of a cheek to expect something not remotely being paid for. I'd probably also be wondering how expert they are, because most wildlife 'experts' would know far more than they do about the issues surrounding wildlife video. Most 'experts' would be asking questions about this video - setting lists of what exactly is wanted, how long, time of day, what breeds, etc etc. the chances of going into the area on a Tuesday morning at 9.30am might mean you shoot nothing at all. What research have you done on the animals they want? Do they forage all day, at dawn, dusk, or night time. Is this season where they herd together, or will they be solitary older animals and groups of younger ones with females etc etc.

Do they always feed in the same place, so you could record real audio by hiding some mics? Could you even try some of the cheap wildlife recorders being sold? My sister has two in the wood next to her garden and every day gets some great shots of creatures!

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Well they already have wildlife recorders out there, but they keep on being stolen they said, so I don't want that to happen to mine, if I were to get some. But I'm doing this as a freebie and don't want to buy anything that they don't give me the budget for.

As for studying the animals, they are supplying me with the information actually so far, so I'm going by that.

However, I am not satisfied with my lens so far, cause when I zoom in to 300mm the footage gets too soft perhaps. Not sure if they notice so far, but maybe there is a better DSLR that can fit on my camera that will be sharper at 300mm or more?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

My experience is that photographic designed lenses often show their weaknesses at the extremes. A friend of mine has the same camera I have, and bought an adaptor to use a longer lens. Physically, it fitted but the results were very disappointing very soft images. Using adaptors and trying to squeeze extra focal length effectively lowers the resolution by quite a bit. Using SD lenses, even expensive ones on an HD camera shows them up. I'm left wondering if instead of adaptors that are mismatched to the optics, a 4K camera with permanent lens, purpose designed for the sensor would produce better images by cropping than an hD camera with magnification. Not tried it yet. With DSLRs, of course, the choice is usually what glass you can bolt on the front that you can afford.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

The lenses needed for tight shots on birds are going to longer than the run of the mill lenses most people purchase, so they're going to be expensive. Your current focal length would be coming into the equation if you were shooting 16mm film or on a 2/3" camera for this job and you'd still need to be close.

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Oh okay thanks, I'll see what I can do...

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

I am uncomfortable with this 30 fps, as it looks like a home video camcorder at that framerate. Why is 30 fps the best just because it's standard?

Re: What camera lens should I get for this project of shooting animals close up?
 

Ryan, have you ever watched tv wildlife? Blue planet, and anything by sir david attenburgh? Tv format and looks amazing. Friends is also tv format and there is no comparison between this in quality terms! You say the most crazy things sometimes. 1080, in 16:9, distributed on 25 or 30 frame systems can look stunning. If you cannot see this and understand why, give up and take up flower arranging.