What does this mean? What can it do?
 

The best vulture in flight footage I've seen on BBC was shot showing plumage detail from 50 yards in 2005 with ...

" ... Super 16 film on an Arriflex camera with either a Canon 11-165
zoom or a Canon f2.8 300mm lens with sometimes a 1.4X converter."

Would anyone kindly tell me
(a) what these camera set-ups mean, and
(b) how would those setups compare (for image quality) with the output from Canon XL H1

There almost nothing about Arriflex on DVInfo, and neither Canon or B&H ever heard of Canon 11-165; and what can a 1.4x converter do (all in the hands of a pro)?

Since this a digital camera forum it's not too suprising that we have no info
on a film camera. Which the Arriflex (no model listed) is. Of coures 16mm film
is just that, 16mm film.

Canon 11 - 165 sounds like a canon zoom lens which is wide (11 mm) and
goes to 165 mm (a 15x zoom).

I have no idea whether such a still or video lens exists, but a quick Google
search yielded: http://www.citystage.com/video.html, so that would
indicate such a lens does exist.

The other Canon lens is quite a long lens (300mm) and the f2.8 is the minimum
aperture (how much lights it lets in).

The 1.4 extender extends the range of the length by a factor of 1.4. So the
first lens would become a 15.4-231mm lens, the second a 420mm lens.

The longer the mm the futher you can "see" with a lens. Or the more close
you can get to things that are far away. The lower the number the wider the
lens is and the more you can see that is near the camera.

To give a very black and white example. The longer lenses are used a lot with
things like sports and wildelife where subjects are far away. The wide angle
lenses are used a lot in interiors since there is usually not much space.

I can't compare a 16mm film camera to a digital HDV camera. Both probably
have their advantages and disadvantages. The look coming of these things
will probably look quite different

Very helpful, Rob, thank you. I believe that's the first time I've understood
how 11-165 might apply and that 1.4x equals an increase by 40% (not 140%).

Would any XL H1 user care to comment about wildlife footage? Or perhaps there's feedback if I search the threads.

to add to rob's most excellent explanation:

here's a link to the lens set-up in question...picture and a thousand words, etc., etc.:

http://www.cookeoptics.com/zgc.nsf/c...7?OpenDocument

mostly because i just like leering at, i mean looking at lenses....

i believe the 300mm prime lens refers to the standard canon lens mount for still (dSLR) cameras, which some people also mount to the XL2/H1 using the EF lens adapter and which, when used on a video camera, the image is magnified by....a lot. i can't keep it in my head. 7.9? 9.7? i just think of it as really super big and close! there may be some sort of magnification factor with a super 16 camera as well, though i don't know this for a certainty and would have no idea what it is. whereas the 16mm lens is specific for super 16 cameras, thus no magnification factor.

why this is interesting....well, it's likely (though this is pure conjecture on my part....) that the plumage you are looking at is shot with the 300mm with the extender, because to obtain close-in plumage at 50 yards would require magnification greater than 165mm.

i have a recently-acquired 400mm prime and on the XL2, everything is, well, super big and close.

and, by the way, the only professional wildlife videographer shooting with an H1 and posting footage on dvinfo.net at the current time (that i'm aware of...) is Lauri Kettunen, so if you want lauri's feedback on using the H1 (quite illuminating), do a member search, and you can get the most recent thoughts and a bit of footage and H1 camera testing with 35mm lenses.....

All that's very informative and I'll be checking out Lauri's posts. Thank you, but after that price shock I need that swivel rest more than ever .. phew.

I think that the lens used for the vulture was a Canon manual FD 300mm F/2.8 ED, made for the earlier Canon film SLR bodies such as the F1, and not the later Canon EOS autofocus EOS lenses that emply a differnt mount. THe Canon FD, like the Ais Nikkors, have the added advantage of having the aperture control on the lens itself, rather than on the camera body such asin modern EOS lenses, or the latest AF Nikkor G lenses.

The good thing is that an old (but extremely high quality) manual Nikkor ED-IF or Canon FD lens will not only be quite cheap (compared to the 16mm add-on lenses), but will also give outstanding footage matched to cameras such as the XL2 & XL-H1.

FYI, since the camera in use originally was Super 16, which is roughly equivalent focal-length-wise to a 2/3" camera in the video world, the field of view represented by a 300mm lens in Super 16 would, if mounted on a 1/3" HDV camera, present a field of view comparable to a lens somewhere between 600mm and 800mm.

Charles, please give this another twist for me.

I understand (just about) the significance of 2/3" ccd and 1/3"ccd. What I don't understand is (a)what measurement is referred to by 600mm and 800mm and (b)how and why might those lenses be able to focus in on a smaller target at a greater distance than, say, Meryem's 400mm. Or perhaps this is what Rob Lohman was referring to above when he wrote .....

< The longer the mm the futher you can "see" with a lens. Or the more close
you can get to things that are far away. The lower the number the wider the
lens is and the more you can see that is near the camera.>

If I'm right in connecting Rob's quote in this way, then am I correct in thinking that the mm's refer to the physical length of the lens (or the effective length of the lens as designed with mirrors & mechanism) within ?
If I'm right so far then I would have thought there must be a fairly simple table/graph/scale somewhere which correlates the various mm's (by the 100, say) with a range of target sizes and distances. Where is it?

Or, to quote the vicar in Blazing Saddles, am I just jerking off?

good points by tony and charles...it would make more sense to use the FD mount with a film camera. hadn't considered that....

and a good question--what the heck does "mm" refer to anyway? i don't know if there's a chart, but i think you get a "feel" for the "mm" simply from using 35mm (there it is again!) lenses and that helps you to understand what people are talking about when they throw around "mm." try a 15mm lens. then try the 300mm. you'll get it.i guess you don't have to know what a thing means at all, in order to actually use it....

i mean, what does 35mm even refer to, anyway? we all act as if we know, but is it referring to the film? or the lens? and is one then simply referring back to the other?

more academic wanking back atcha....

[QUOTE=Meryem Ersoz]good points by tony and charles...it would make more sense to use the FD mount with a film camera.

Now if you'd mentioned a PP mount I'd have known you were referring to that music-loving parish priest who famously mounted The Merry Widow but what is an FD mount, Meryem, please?

tony, who uses an FD mount, is probably better equipped to answer, but the mount just refers to point of connection between the lens and the camera. the FD version is configured so that you can mount the lens to camera without putting extra glass between the camera and lens, whereas the EF mount (for EOS lenses)--which is the mount built into the EF adapter, also the same mount used on still cameras, such as the popular Canon Digital Rebel, frinstance, puts extra glass between camera and lens, possibly degrading or softening the image, or so the argument goes.

do i have this right, tony?

brendan, what's up with all of these nutty innuendo-laden literary images, hmm? extra bonus points if you can tell me who said, "an old black ram is tupping your white ewe...."

The FD mounts refer to the earlier Canon interchangeable lens attachment points to the Canon FD camera. Twenty year old technology. FD mount lenses(the 150 -600 mm and the 50 - 300 mm) were and still are adapted to the cine cameras as well as the current interchangable lens video cameras. I use a 50 - 300 4.5 FD lens consistently with my XL1 and find it works fairly well with my new XL H1. They do not need glass in the converter as the later EF lenses require. I am not sure the EF lenses actualy need the glass or that they need the room to provide for the electronics. Without the glass, the image is improved.

Just to add to Rons reply and to clarify some points about lenses. Some of the FD lenses are indeed 20 yr old technology but they are still the prefered long lens of choice for both video and film applications, especially for wildlife. A typical 'workhorse' setup for most cameramen S16mm would be something like the following and will be what 90% of wildlife footage that you have seen over the last 20 years will have been shot with.

- A zoom- the Canon 11 - 165 mentioned is a truly beautiful lens and used by some but is very expensive. There is also an very nice Angenieux 11.5-138mm T2.3 but by far the most common is the Zeiss 12-120mm 0r 10-110mm. These are the most commonly used lens for S16. There are many other lenses around Cookes, Canons, Angenieuxs etc designed for 16mm but without the coverage or resolving power of the more modern and expensive zooms. The lens are likely to be fitted with Arri B, PL or Aaton mounts depending on the camera body they should fit.

- A wide lens- This may be one of a number of lenses but is often part of a set of dedicated cine Prime lens. The most oft used wide prime in my hire set is the Zeiss Superspeed 9.5mm. Some of the zooms can be fitted with an aspheron that will make the wide end wider. There are many other wides ranging from fairly standard 9.5mm down to ultra wide 4mm. They are made by Kinoptik, Arriflex, Zeiss, Optar, Cooke, Canon etc. The lens are likely to be fitted with Arri B, PL or Aaton mounts depending on the camera body they should fit.

-Standard lenses- 25mm, 50mm etc... Can be dedicated cine lenses, some people again use converted FD or Nikkors (remember the FOV issues with all these conversions)

- Long lenses- There are two standard long wildlife lenses, both are designed for 35mm so cover S16 and theoretically use the 'sweet spot' of the lens. The Canon FD150-600mm f5.6 'L' and the Canon FD 300mm f2.8 'L'. Both are the white lenses you will see on sports photographers. The former is huge and very expensive but versatile having much of the range covered. These can be retrofitted with electronic zoom demands from companies like varizoom. The Canon 300mm is relatively lightweight and super fast. There are various others of these long lenses in varying flavors including a monster 400mm f2.8, 500mm f3.5, 600mm f4. As the magnification gets higher so does the unwieldiness. These long lenses would generally be accompanied by a 1.4x and a 2x extender, often again an FD extender. So to clarify, the extender would be unlikely to be used on the zoom.
These FD lenses are fantastic and can be picked up relatively cheaply. The optics are so good in fact that a number of bespoke cine lenses are built from 'repackaged' FD optics in lens housings with better focus racks and focus gears etc.
These lenses are generally finished with a 'Universal' mount. This can have PL, Arri B, B4 etc mounts attached so making them very adaptable.

- 'Macro' lens- Often an FD, Tamron or Nikkor 100/105mm 'macro' lens- Fast and good for S16mm work.

- Esoteric lenses- There are a number of specialist lenses and optical devices that are commonly used in wildlife cinematography. The most notable being Boroscope lense assemblys that allow for some very exciting footage where a simple pan following an ant can look like a tracking shot. These range from long tubes with optical assemblies and finished with a lens (10mm to macro) to more complicated ones that can see around corners, Les Bosher makes a good one. These are used extensively in the industry.
Significant others in this catagory include micro lenses that are used on darkfield microscope stages, fisheyes and so on, plus a range of homegrown lenses and adaptors designed for specific jobs.

This list is by no means exhaustive but gives some idea of what is being used in the high end wildlife film industry. There are of course a number of other amazing zooms including a cracking 33-1 zoom and various others. Most of the long lenses are also used on the rare 35mm wildlife productions. They are also used for digibeta and in some cases on HD although dedicated zooms are more de rigeur.

I hope that this helps answer a few questions regards what is in use. Obviously the industry is moving towards HD these days, the new BBC NHU blockbuster 'Planet Earth' is originating on HD and 35mm. This will mean that this list is bound to change with new lenses entering the fray (or rather old lenses with better optics) but for the meanwhile you can be certain that you are watching footage shot with a combination of the above.

J

James Ewen wrote <<< I hope that this helps answer a few questions regards what is in use. Obviously the industry is moving towards HD these days, the new BBC NHU blockbuster 'Planet Earth' is originating on HD and 35mm. This will mean that this list is bound to change with new lenses entering the fray (or rather old lenses with better optics) but for the meanwhile you can be certain that you are watching footage shot with a combination of the above >>

That was a powerful blast of insight into the world of (wildlife)cinematography, thank you very much, James.

Would you go a step further, please, and suggest the possible parts (second-hand will do) of a set-up that would give you (not me) high quality moving images of griffon vultures in flight at up to 80 yards, subject to a weight limit of about 3 kgs and a price tag up to US$15,000?

By the way what's Mozambique like for such wildlife and videography?

I think that James as summed up the question.

I have a Canon 300mm T2.8 FD lens with a universal mount that has adaptor for Arriflex PL and Bayonet mounts and Sony B4 (Betacam) and XL2 mounts.

It is a must have for bird photography and is pin sharp. Being able to mount the lens to the XL2 with a "straight through" adaptor (no glass) is also a plus.

The only minus factor is a study tripod is necessary to obtain stable shots and ND filters must be put inside the lens as the camera has no ND's.

I often use it with a 2x extender with great results, I think it works out to be equivalent to nearly 6000mm on 4:3

Some superb information was given by James Ewen.

Brenden - For wildlife/nature/fishing/outdoor subjects, I use the Canon 16X Manual Servo zoom lens (sometimes with additional .7 X Red Eye lens for wide angle work, to provide 24mm-600mm equivalent in 35mm SLR), and, via a Les Bosher Nikkor to XL mount, lenses such as my Sigma 24mm f/1.8 DG Macro, 28mm f/1.8 DG Macro, MF 180mm f/2.8 APO Macro, MF Nikkor 70-150 f/3.5, AF-D 75-300mm f/4.5, MF Nikkor Ais 300mm f/2.8 ED-IFN, and MF Nikkor Ais 600mm f/5.6 ED-IF.

Another lens used quite a lot for the film industry is the legendary Nikon Nikkor 300mm f/2 ED-IF in either T-mount or the original Nikon mount plus adapter - but this lens is heavy, extremely expensive and hard to find (although one Japanese company still bulids the white T-mount version). The 300mm f.2.8 is in my opinion just as sharp, far lighter, cheaper and easier to find on the SH market.

If you are going to use either the Canon FD 300mm f2.8 or Nikkor 300mm f/2.8 on your XL1/2/H1 for your Vulture footage, than I would strongly advise that you match it with a heavy tripod and Pro-level smooth pan head, plus tripod handle controller (I use the Manfrotto 522C…much better than the Canon one).

Another must-have is a very strong removable tripod mount to stabilise both the lens and camera body. Keeping everything steady at these extreme magnifications is vitally important. Take a look at the Ron Armstrong website to gain an idea into the type of gear needed:

http://www.ronsrail.com/

so james, tony, bob, ron (or anyone else...), have any of you taken the plunge on the H1 or do you have an opinion on using it for wildlife imaging?

i'm primarily concerned about the purple fringing in the images already posted here, because adding long lenses enhances this issue, in my (far more limited) experience. $9,000 is a lot of money for me, as a smaller operator, to pay for a camera which might come with a signficant issue.

thanks for all the info, guys, always a pleasure to learn from your experience....

I never buy any equipment, be it camera, car etc, without it being on the market for quite some period, sometimes even years. This gives plenty of time for any problems to arise, and improvements made (if any) to any particular model I want to buy.

Like most people, I need the highest quality possible within my budget. This often means that I buy ‘mint’ condition second-hand, rather than a new lower quality item.

I like most of what I've seen and heard with the XL-H1, but am still on the fence whether to buy one. At the moment, I'm going to stick with the XL1/2 bodies...until some more serious reviews and on-hands tests are done with the H1 with different lenses (prime wide/zoom/telephoto) in outdoor shooting in all light levels.

Wouldn't it be handy if we could get Chris Hurd or someone as thorough to do a study and report on the XL H1 like Chris did on the XL 2 (Sorry I don't know how to insert the link but it's under Canon XL2 Watchdog Articles on this forum ... among my favourites for a year)?

Perhaps there's a sponsor out there looking for him already ...

The question of what gear is best for what job is always a good bone of contention, I believe that it will be different for everyone.

Brendan and the Griffon Vultures- "Would you go a step further, please, and suggest the possible parts (second-hand will do) of a set-up that would give you (not me) high quality moving images of griffon vultures in flight at up to 80 yards, subject to a weight limit of about 3 kgs and a price tag up to US$15,000?"

The 300mm f2.8 on its own weighs nearly three Kgs alone...Unfortunately as gear gets more 'professional' and high quality, its weight increases incrementally. Add a descent tripod and fluid head (8 kgs+), a camera body and support for the lens and we are topping 15Kg without even thinking off all the other gadgets. I would want to be shooting S16 or HD (Varicam) for something like this. My gear would top out at around 40kgs.

As for buying a setup it really depends on what your end market is and how rich/poor you are. There are masses of S16 kits on the market right now going for nothing (compared to their true value) as people move over to HD they are selling off all their film gear. However, I would not suggest that you go out and buy a film kit. But seriously for $15000 the highest quality that you will get is a S16 film kit, buut then you have to buy, process and telecine the resulting film and learn to shoot film... all of which are very expensive. If you want to shoot for yourself then I would go for something like an H1/HD100 or one of the many good DVCams (full size) that are on the market. Whatever takes your fancy really as all of them will have very annoying features and you will always wish that they were different, better and so on.

I think that rather than addressing specifics here it is easier to look at the broader issues of buying gear. It is always a case of 'horses for courses'.
I own three cameras out of necessity for what I do and where I live and I am busy enough to make it cost effective, in Mozambique their are no hire houses, service facilities, film labs; I have to travel to South Africa for all this.

I have an HD100 with all its proclivities (SSD, Colour Fringing, Shonky lens, and poor build quality) and it is the everyday camera used for pretty much everything we do. It is however not suitable for underwater work, even if there was a housing the camera is too big and it would be like taking a kite underwater so... I use a Z1 in a Gates housing for all the Underwater work that we do. This small and fiddly camera with its poor user interface produces great images and is pretty much the industry standard in its class. For work that needs high speed I use and Aaton, if I need to go faster I hire an Arriflex HS, if I need digibeta I hire a digibeta, if HD.......

I agree with much Tony says about Tony on buying second hand, but if you really want/need an H1 now buy one. I sold an Xl1s kit with all the adaptors to pay for the HD100, the Xl1s was fantastic but the market means I need to be able to shoot HDV.

Meryem- I am sure that the H1 is an amazing camera when coupled with a HD compatable manual lens, its forte like the Xl1/2 is that you can change to a manual zoom or add a 35mm lens for longer focal lengths which is good for wildlife*. Have a look at the HD100, check out a secondhand, industry standard DSR 500 WSL with a decent lens, what feels good for you and your work?

* Whatever you stick on the front make sure your lens mount can take the weight of get some supporting rails. A friend has been through two XL lens mounts due putting a big lens on the front and not supporting it properly

If you are shooting for broadcast make sure that what you give them is what they need. The major broadcasters do not know where to put HDV so it appears most is being downrezzed to SD. For DVD, yourself, your mates etc you can do what you want as long as you can edit it.

As a postscript on gear, most non wildlife cameramen I know do not own a camera but own support and accessories (lenses, batteries, matte boxes, filters, support). They hire a body and hire the accessories they have to the production. Many wildlife people do own the cameras (or at least did) because the territory demands it.. longform, hire costs will exceed purchase etc. The gear that will not date, will hold value and will last you many years are things like filters, matte boxes, follow focai (?), and tripods and heads...my main fluid head is an Oskar Heiler EB that was made in the late 80's. I still use some wooden legs from the 60's when working in very cold places. These things are worth the investment and you will have them for years...

I hope this long and rambling post is helpful.

J

You're certainly not rambling James...just providing good, solid advice.

Getting out of hand?
 

Well you've spilled the beans, James, with those observations. Most helpful revelations to XM2 amateurs like me.

It seems that before filming vultures in flight I must first find & train a small elephant with a head for heights to carry 30+ kgs (- tripod) + me (on swivel seat) around and freeze whenever I smack him on the head.

Or, there's the XL-H1 (x20 zoom) and 11-165 (x15) for about $23,000. On that point would the image quality using 11-165 be that much better than the XL-H1 lens to justify the cost? Indeed, who knows whether the 11-165 is interchangeable with the XL-H1 and how?

"I think I better think it out again".

If I wasn't an old man I'd readily agree with Tony and yourself to wait awhile until XL-H1 has been put through its paces. Oh, and what does a HD compatable manual lens facilitate?

Not far off the truth....
 

The 11-165 will not fit direct on the XL-H1 as it is specifically designed for S16mm and thus would have a PL, or Arri B or Aaton mount, any that adaptor would allow it to fit would alter the focal length. You would gain nothing from using this lens on the Canon. The kind of manual lens I refer to is something like the lenses that Canon and Fujinon released for the XL1, (14x/16x) I imagine that Canon is likely to release HD versions of these lenses (for 1/3" chips).
Manual lenses facilitate having real back focus and thus the ability to set focus marks, execute accurate focus pulls and basically to focus properly. The lenses in the Canon XL range have no fixed focal point so cameramen used to using pro lenses find them horrible to operate. However, you loose autofocus, if this is something that you use. Also I imagine that the new XL lens for the H1 is an 'HD' designated lens and would be optically superior to an SD manual lens, just a bit annoying to use. I recommend going and trying a manual lens as opposed to the XL servo lenses and see what the differences are in useability.
Hah Brendan, not far from the truth actually (Check this link http://www.bediji.com/contibutionll.html) ... but seriously I'm sure you could do far worse than the H1 with the standard lens. It is bound to be a great camera and produce stunning images especially with some practice.

J

what a hilarious link. the elephant tripod. right up there with the pringle can macro lens. that's what makes this biz so much fun....

i have an FX-1 and an XL2 (also a GL2). the temptation in purchasing the canon H-1 is that i already own several canon long lenses for still photography, which interchange nicely with the XL2. and these darn lenses are not cheap! although it is relatively easy to find nice used ones. so it would be the H1 or just sitting on my hands (my current inclination) to, as tony points out, buy a nice used one in a year or two (or see what new models appear). but i've become addicted to the long reach. as much as i love the landscape footage from the FX-1, there is something about getting right up eyeball-to-eyeball with the wild animals which is utterly thrilling and inspiring. can't quite do that without my 400mm prime....

my FX-1 was used, and it's been a great investment. buying used for wildlife use is great advice because i, at least, put my gear through some pretty rugged use. my old GL2 looks like a used cat toy, but it works as well as the day i bought it, and is still a great camera for travel--i have to travel lightly in the yucatan in a month, and it's the camera i'll bring along, for its size and weight. i have also used the GL2 as an underwater camera, because if it blows, it's okay. the right tool for the right job. it's always nice to have options.

i've made sort of a niche out of doing commercial and documentary work which incorporates lots of outdoor/adventure sports/wildlife imagery but i would not call myself a professional wildlife videographer. that's its own category. i love learning about the different options from the true globetrotters, a dream which is on hold until my daughter is older....

"Your humble servant is deeply obliged and eternally grateful to His Excellency for any arrangement whereby your miserable slave might be so bold as to borrow the very throne upon which your Excellency is majestically seated in the abovementioned link with our colonial masters ... etc"

... and trust the Bedi Bros to have got there long ago; it's probably got telescopic legs too. If the Camo swivel rest is not available at end of Feb.as I've been promised ... "Your fawning wretch will indeed be grovelling before the sandals of somebody or other ...

Great advice, easy to read, much appreciated James, thank you.