Oops sorry Bob - link is

By design #4_ roughcut scene 1 on Vimeo

Best to allow it to download before watching it as it is very stuttery.


Thank you Dale and Finn-Eric for your comments.


Marj

Hi Marj.

I love the opening sequence and what a great choice of music, loved it.
On my PC when playing your vimeo video, the rolling text is "jumping" up the screne, (I'm not sure if the propper english word is jerk, jolt or pull on this matter). Better if it was rolling more smoothly, but it can also be it's only on my computer (others?).
If I where you I would have used a technical font in this video. At least I think it will suit the topic very well. The font you are using is fine :)
When you say "exposition will be here", does it mean text or VO? It's hard for me to tell if the opening is too long or suitable when it's not there, if you know what I mean? Also if you intend to use text, beware of the length. Too much text in videos can sometimes be boring. Not so boring with VO, and you have a fine voice - don't be afraid of using it :)
Ok, when it comes to your clips/shots/colours etc, they are all great. Both close ups and wides are all fine. Most of the shots are in a very high standard and thereby gives your video a professional look. The combination between living creatures and, like when you blend the egg white (at around 6.00 I think), is pretty cool. It shows good thinking and planning through out the video, and makes me think of you as an pro film maker.
Many of us fim makers is just filming "stuff" and don't know whats behind it all. Watching your video it gives me a feeling of; that you know what you're talking about :)
I think that way you are able to give the viewer more than a pretty film to watch and that the viewer will feel certain that what is given to him/her is true.

Puh, if I only could give my comments in norwegian, I feel that I now and then is using the wrong english words for my expresions:/
Well, that is what I got by now - a great video this is.

All the best
Geir Inge

Thanks Geir, I really appreciate the time you have taken to give me this input.

I must assume it is the Vimeo compression combined with the animation in its background that has made the text stutter/jerk as I didn’t have any problems with the text scrolling in my compressed files. Will have to double check all these little things though.

Exposition here means VO - just want to see how much of my film I am going to be able to finish before committing myself to the exposition. It may have to change a bit depending on what I can manage to get done in the short amount of time left. It won’t be long.

Even though I have a keen interest in the natural world around me and have a basic understanding of how things work, the only way I could write the stories for this film was to do lots of research. I have learned so much along the way and have become so fascinated with this subject.

You have raised a very important point - making sure that all facts in a documentary are correct. I have been constantly aware of this because I am neither a mathematician nor a biologist. I have relied heavily on the internet for my information but I regard it with a great deal of caution as it is peppered with mistakes. I have found plenty of them while doing my research - which is the reason I won’t rely on information from one site only.

I have also tried to verify every single statement before putting it in my film and where I can’t verify I have left it out. Where possible I have tried to find the originators of the information. It is 95% verified at this stage - one or two things still need to be double checked. I will also ask an expert to check it.

I was very worried I was over-doing the narration again but without it, it is difficult to work out what is being demonstrated.

Thanks once again Geir.

Marj. very well done, and, educational. Makes one look at the world in a different way. As a former entomologist I really loved the macro. What lens did you use for those extreme close-ups? You did a fantastic job on the narration. Not only pleasingto the ear, but as I said, very educational. Can't wait for the final product. Bob

Thanks for your comments Bob - they mean a lot to me especially coming from an entymologist!

For the close-ups I used a Canon Macro lens EF 100mm 1:2.8 USM on my XL2.

Marj

Hey Marj

Well you look like you've taken some great steps forward and are well on the way to formating your overall film....I hope I get there :-)

Ok then...

As I've said previously I think this concept is very strong and interesting but a tricky story to tell.

I thought the intro needed to be stronger or carry your theme better. These images should be the strongest you have. After all your trying to grab people to keep watching. They should also sing geometry/math which I don't thing some of them did. Maybe there is some section treatment that would make this work.

Narration/Writing. - It seems 'All head and little Heart !' - I hope this descibes what I'm feeling. Firstly it feels like I'm been read too from a text book and while its very interesting its could be more entertaining. I'd say trim it, let it breathe more and let your images tell the story where ever you can.

Story wise. - I like your individual sections, the bees the frogs nest etc. But apart from the obvious connections I felt like I wanted more that was linking these things together. So...something we are trying to find out or looking for the answer too. Maybe it was there and I'd pick it up on a second watch but I just wanted to get that into the critique at this point.

Great stuff Marj and you certainly seem one of the most organised long formers!

Looking forward to you final piece
Mat

As I mentioned in the giant thread I am unfortunately unable to upload my film or download your films until Tuesday next week, so I apologise. It is very frustrating not to be able to view your wonderful films right now.

As you may already have seen, Steve, I answered your question regarding the animation of the florets initiating on the minute sunflower head in the other thread but I did not think it would be a good idea to hog that giant thread with more answers so I moved to here. Incidentally – my sunflower only has 34:21 florets in the first row, so you can imagine just how small they can be when they have 55:89 – even smaller than ours! Just for interest sake - primordia are 40-50 microns wide (1000 microns = 1 mm) 

The nautilus cutaway is simply a radial wipe between the clips of the outside and inside of the nautilus (which is an original graphic of my own with its outline created to match up with the outline of the external view of the shell. )

There was no ways on earth I could get a shot of a Nautilus swimming even if they did inhabit our waters which they don't, so I did a composite (in Premiere Pro) comprising an underwater shot filmed at Ushaka and a single frame of the nautilus shell combined with an original graphic that I created of the head and tentacles.

By reducing the opacity on the nautilus a little, the bright white floaties in the water appeared to be swimming in front of it although they are in fact shining through from behind it in the composite. I got the nautilus to bob along as it does in real life by moving its position between start and end points and by rotating its angle back and forth at regular intervals in the effects control panel.

Hi Marj,

I am so impressed with your work...I've never seen anything like it, and the fact that the presentation and information, too, are new comes as no surprise. I would have assumed that growth begins at the center and works its way out, but thinking back to my embryology, I recall (fuzzily) other examples of inward growth. I didn't think that the animation was from an After Effects plug-in, but neither did I expect you had developed it yourself (even with assistance). Congratulations. I assume that you are in some kind of scientific pursuit as a profession. Correct?

After watching the film, and a little disappointed that you hadn't carried the structures back a little more, (Of course, I didn't know at the time that this was all being done by hand), I tried to think about where these structures and numbers were all coming from. As you get to the molecular level, Fibonacci numbers are not very important. Three, and eight sided molecules are rare. Six is the norm for closed loop molecules, some fives. So the patterns probably aren't set at that fundamental level. Embryos all go through an eight cell stage, but, at least in humans, it is a hexagon with two cells in the middle. Not much help either.
I suppose my question is: what is the smallest structure that displays "Golden Properties".
Do you know? The other feature that just has to hold some answers is the fact that components in one direction of a spiral differ from those in the other direction by just one Fibonacci number. Have you tried to generate a sunflower head with the same number in both directions (like 55 and 55, not 55 and 34). Are there space filling problems that way?
Ultimately, the numbers have to reflect the timing of gene expression for the various structures represented. Timing of gene expression is critical for all development. So does that mean there is a Fibonacci clock? Do you know who does research on this stuff?

Another question Marj,
If each seed was square or circular in cross section, then I suspect (without doing the math, sorry), that a good fit could be made with the same number of spirals in both directions (say 55 and 55). If they are rectangular or ovoid then a lesser number in one direction would be dictated it the whole flower was to be circular, as all Composites are.
Now the question is: Does the shape of each seed approximate a golden rectangle, and is that why they pack in Fibonacci sequences.
If the seeds are golden rectangles in cross section does that reflect the packing of starch granules within? Different kinds of starch is formed by different degrees of branching of the glucose molecules that compose it, and it can pack differently depending on the amount of branching that occurs. On the other hand, aren't all these decisions made while the seeds are still primordia with no starch. Jeez it's complex. I love this stuff!

Thanks Steve.

Okay Dr Siegel lets take these one at a time. There is a long answer and a short answer to all of these questions. Unfortunately, I currently have two clients who have been very patient with me and need their work done so I will have to give you the short answers:

First though, my feet are squarely in the arts. Like you I am just fascinated by this subject – even more so since starting this project. I started out thinking this was going to be a simple fun exercise even if a bit superficial. Nothing could have been further from the truth. This is neither simple nor superficial but at the forefront of a great deal of research. I realized very soon that if I were to do this project I had better know what I am talking about and I spent hours reading and researching this topic. Although I am 99% sure of my facts, my film still needs to be verified by an expert in the field. Dr Palmer has verified this particular section that is based on his research work.


I understand where you are coming from Steve but in all the research I did I never saw any reference to anything deeper than this level. (Crystals can produce the same patterns but their molecular constituents diverge widely from those of plants.) I am not so sure though that it’s a matter of dealing with individual structures here, but rather with a system.


No I haven’t tried, but anything other than 137.5 deg on a circular disc will have gap problems. Sorry - there is one other way - using two changing angles, but no one has found a plant that uses it.

However, it doesn’t work like that. We did not decide to make our pattern using 21 spirals one way and 34 spirals the other way out of choice. In fact we didn’t even make the spirals - only one unit/object and a little program containing some rules.

The two sets of spirals and two Fibonacci numbers were the natural consequence of this set of rules (iteration) incorporating the golden angle: e.g. repeat this object on the other side of the disc 137.5 degrees from this one using the centre point of the disc as the axis. Repeat this 600 times with each new object positioned at a slightly smaller radius from the centre. (Greg calculated the radius so that no new object would overlap a previous one.) In other words the spirals and the Fibonacci numbers just appeared when this rule was applied! The reason for 21:34 spirals as opposed to say 34:55 spirals is due to the size of the disc relative to the size of the object.

However, in addition to this, Greg had to build in the growth factor – growth of the disc and the continual growth of the little bump thingies. He also had to keep the centre third clear almost till the end, even though the bumps were continually emerging. He also had to make this pattern appear on a saucer shape not a flat disc so lots of things were built into his calculations. Complicated mathematics was involved in creating this - and to think that plants do this all the time!

One could possibly, with a push, use hexagons to pack a circular disc if they were very small compared to the head but you wouldn’t get exponential growth with that and you couldn’t apply it to the leaves. Not only does this one angle solve the packing problem on the seed head but is applied to the leaves arranged helically around the stem as well – quite an achievement.

Next year Greg will be doing a couple of examples for my film repeating this little sequence but using slightly different angles for the florets (different rules) just to show how precise this angle needs to be for good packing without gaps. We both ran out of time to do this for this submission but it’s fascinating to see! Just to give you an idea, try this fun pattern-maker here (it uses values not angles but it will give you an idea anyway):

Nature, The Golden Ratio and Fibonacci Numbers

No; the shape of the unit has nothing to do with the Fibonacci packing. See above.

If you look closely at the shape and sizes of the florets on the sunflower they are different from the seeds. The seeds are all a uniform size unlike the developing florets. The seed have to fit somehow after they start to develop. The disc expands to accommodate them but the pattern remains the same and without gaps. (Each floret produces one seed if pollination is successful, so there are the same numbers of seeds as florets.)

I will send you some sites where research is being done via email.

Hi Mike

I have copied this quote over from the general thread to here.



Mike thank you so much for taking the time to give such good feedback on my film. I must say I value everyone comments because it gives me essential feedback for my final film from various points of view. I really appreciate your input - coming from someone who obviously has a solid background in the field of biology and the natural world in general. Your comments reflect a number of issues I have had with creating this film.

Yes, my film is far from finished – in fact for me this is only the beginning. This is the rough cut of my film with bits missing.

I had to drop a number of stories for this submission - notably my intended exposition and conclusion, the echinoderms (I thought of you), the spirals in flowers other than composites, the sunflower story, formation of animal patterns, fractals, crystals, and cycles. It takes a long time to weave these sub-stories into the main story structure in such a way that they add value to it and don’t interrupt the general flow moving forward. Each has to be integrated with caution and consideration and I just did not have any time left to do this. (The fact that the end here is all about plants is simply because these things have been dropped. That will definitely change.)

However, having said that, the continual question on my mind is how much more can a general audience take in? How long will an audience sit through a film of this nature? I could very easily make what I consider a fascinating story of 90 minutes out of this because there is just so much material from which to choose, but can I stretch it to 90 minutes and still keep my audience through all those tea breaks? These are tough questions and decisions have to be made one way or the other.

This story doesn’t even scratch the surface of the depth of the mathematics found in nature - you yourself have noted some of the things that should rightfully be included. Some of the pertinent discoveries made by mathematicians and other researchers in the field of phyllotaxis (study of leaf arrangement) that are truly fascinating should also be included but simply won’t make it. The list goes on. However, my feeling is that my film should not be too much longer than this.

Apropos the introduction to the bee story - and even the frog story, for that matter – it may not be germane to the subject but I have included these details because for me they bring the story back into the wider context of real life for ordinary people like myself who are not particularly math orientated. My intention was to try and hold attention and breathe a bit of life and meaning into what could be just a boring math story for many. I will consider what you have said, however, if they are just an unnecessary distraction. I intend to rephrase the script around the honeybee to make it less matter-of-fact.

One thing I can’t wait to do now is get my hands on After Effects – I’ve been waiting very patiently for the opportunity to do my titles and introductory animations.

Once again, thanks Mike

Marge,

First, did you not use after effects to do the graphics work on this project??? If not what did you use?

Critically speaking all I noticed was that on a couple explanations I thought the still image seemed a little long as you spoke.

The voice over was truly pleasent in tone, rythm, with simple to understand esxplanations.

You did a fine job keeping everything simple enough to keep most peoples interest for the duration.

With commercial breaks anyone should be able to take it all in!!


Personally I believe the title is perfect!!!!! It says it all and is open to anyones personal directions, theologically or otherwise. I showed it to a friend that is a minister and his statement was "Wow, and some think it was all by accident!" i now I want to show it to my athiest friend when he comes!!!

It takes great work to apeal to everyone!!!

I can't wait to see what graphic titles and such you develop for it!!!

What an inspiration, makes me want to climb harder on the talent ladder!!!

My film did not get further than roughcut stage I'm afraid, but I am very relieved to have it at this stage now as the hard part - getting a story down - is now more or less sorted.

With your permission, I have added some info to my credits to make them more accurate.

Thanks for your feedback Dale - and for your compliments. Premier Pro, Corel Rave and 3DS Max were used for the animations.
The images that are a bit long are really placeholders for the moment. The floret animation at the end was shorter than my narration so I had to cut it and put in some still frames to lenghten it. Something we'll sort out later. Somehow the dissoves between them went missing so they are a bit abrupt.

Marj- Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts about your project with me. I agree that 90 minutes is too long. Just less that an hour is about right. I’m hoping you may come to see this video as one in a series about the larger topic (with more than a year into it and counting I’m sure you’re not ready to contemplate that just yet). I can see a whole segment on crystals and another on conformations of proteins. You’ve done such a wonderful job with this video that I think the series would be major award material. I follow your reasoning about including the general information about bees. Good thinking. I like your title. I’m just trying to point out that I fear many people will find it overly controversial and that I hope you will consider that. I’m sure you already have. I also can’t wait until you get your hands on After Effects! I have found the learning curve very steep, but you have a much better background in that area than me and I’m sure you’ll soon be amazing us. I can heartily recommend both Adobe’s Classroom in a Book for AE and the free online tutorials over at VideoCopilot. Critique-wise I have been harder on you than the others, and I hope you will realize that it is because your work here is my favorite. I really hope to see you succeed. I’m sure you will. You have emboldened me to, once my own skills have improved, perhaps take on a more serious topic myself. Thank-you. And yes, I really miss those echinoderms…!

Thanks so much for your encouragement Mike. I must say I really appreciate feedback like that which you have given me as it gets me thinking about why I have done some things the way I have and thinking harder about better ways of doing things and I really like that. Some problems with my film are very obvious to me, others not so, and you have raised some good points. As a group we are a good mix of strengths and expertise in different areas and can bring insight into each other's work and that's how we learn from one another. So what I am saying is I welcome constructive criticism particularly as my film is not finished.

Once again - much appreciated.
Marj

P.S. Been meaning to ask you for ages what field of work are you in?