Intrusive Camera Operators
 

I just wanted to get clarification on this. In the wedding videography business, what are some things videographers SHOULD NOT do during a shoot.

Fart loudly?

It seems to me what is considered intrusive varies from place to place. The guys over in the Philippines can get away with stedicaming down the aisle and moving around to get angles from just about anywhere in a church, where as around here they want you to not move at all once the ceremony starts. Rules differ greatly from church to church as well. It's hard to say what's considered intrusive. It's always best to talk to the priest and ask what the house rules are & ask the bride if there's anywhere she doesn't want you to go & do your best to accommodate those desires.
If you're in the wrong spot to get the shot you have to have (it happens to all of us from time to time) then don't be afraid to move. In my book, a few passing moments of aggravation from a grumpy guest or priest beats the heck out of totally blowing a shot.
Other than that, just use your best judgement & don't be obnoxious.

Ethan - thanks for making me laugh. I needed that.


What about during the reception (being intrusive, not passing gas)?

I guess I'm basically looking for rookie mistakes, or things you've all seen/heard before and thought - wow, that was a bit much...

As said above, it depends
 

I like it when our clients call us invisible, which can be a good or bad thing. Good in that it means we are not holding up the progress of the day, unlike the......nevermind. Bad in that we may miss some shots because we're not close enough what have those critical closesups etc.

Videography is one of those animals that really, you only get one shot, very few doovers. That being said, the pace that we work is at an arobics speed. In and out of the shot is what we typically do. As for ceremony's, I've yet to feel comfortable in this area of going down the isle in the front. I will however roll my tripod/dolly down the back behind the bride about 20 feet or so.

As for the reception, we're pretty much in the 'mosh pit' so to speak, as well as on the edge of the action with another camera.

So, I think your original question is always something to discuss with the client and venue director.

I don't know Nick, I mean I may be a little more on the intrusive side. I'm not shy about doing whatever to get my shot. That being said, I try not to steal the show, or be obnoxious.
I'd say the worst thing you can do is be rude to people, or constantly barge into situations that don't need disturbing. Tread lightly, use the zoom, stay out of the way till you just can't anymore.
Oh, and be positive in everything that comes out of your mouth even if you're not thinking it. This took me a long time to learn as I have little to no brain/mouth filter. I learned this by watching some of the better photographers work with people. Whenever they'd blow a shot, they'd spin it, and say something, like "that was great, I'd like just one more" instead of "ah crap, messed that one up... can we try it again".

*EDIT*
Another thing I've learned (sorta) through personal experience is, Shut Up. Stop talking so darn much. I have a bad habit of talking to people around me, and nobody wants to hear the video guy talking over their reception footage. I still struggle with that one.

Another tip is to observe the B&G and family and guests very carefully. You can learn a lot about what people will find acceptable just by watching them and their reactions and mannerisms. Example, if the bride is loud and rowdy and half-drunk by the ceremony, you're likely to have more leeway with shooting her. Same goes for a bride who is quiet and sober, but shows a love for hamming it up for the camera. I had one bride who was really shy and nervous, but she still loved being in front of the camera, so once I identified this I ran with it the rest of the day.

Another example is where I've been filming random guests on the dance floor at the reception. Sometimes you'll have that guest that gives you a look or just always turns away from the camera when you put it on them. With that type of person, you need to either avoid filming them (because you're not likely to get good footage anyways), or you need to back off and use the zoom and try and catch them when they don't see you (wear black!).

As to Ethan's comment about the talking, I don't talk hardly at all. I'm good at that and learned that lesson early on. But my wife is a photographer and she talks like crazy and basically becomes part of the family, so I'm always fighting with that, lol.

Travis, ask her to 'shhh'.......... let me know how that goes.

As for talking, it depends. If the photog is yaking away, I'll just mimic or shadow them. If not, then I will engage the people. Sometimes, you can find that camera hungry dancer and use that a catalyst to get other people doing fun things on camera.

I hate these old skool videographers around here who shoot with a brightass Smith Victor lights attached to the hotshoe and the light is AC powered!.. YES! Meaning no battery.. and dragging a long blue extension cord behind him..

I guess some people will really go to the extremes to achieve that deer in the headlight look.

[QUOTE=Yang Wen;874623]...and dragging a long blue extension cord behind him..
QUOTE]

One word, Liability. I've never seen that. As for the deer in the headlight look, that's pretty comon when people want to turn the ambient light off.

Now that is FUNNY. I can't imagine doing that, I mean I at least put my gas powered generator on wheels so I can keep my cable runs down to a minimum. Never can be too safe.
I don't see how someone can call themselves professional if they don't use a generator (never know when the power might go out) and keep it on wheels at all times so that it's within arm's reach.

Hey Nick,

I'm generally guided by the couple when it comes to how 'gung ho' I can be during the ceremony.

Some couples don't mind whatever you do, they just want you to get the shots you need - as long as you don't knock grandma over in the process etc ... Other couples are more conservative.

The couple may also be able to let you know the rules of the church. I had one minister tell me he would stop the ceremony if I ventured too far down the aisle - other ministers/officiants are cool with most anything.

Try to introduce yourself to the minister before the ceremony, maybe at the rehearsal if you can.

Introducing yourself to the photographer can also help your day to go smoother as well. Nothing worse than a photographer who sees you as some kind of rival for the day.

And don't forget to hit 'record'! :)

Cheers,

Matthew.

Some great advice here. Where I am, we are allowed to move around a bit during the ceremony. Usually, they just don't want us to come up to the altar.

I wait at the top of the aisle for the processional, then move to tripod until the vows. For the vows, I come off tripod and move to centre. Then back to tripod.

Off tripod for the signing. Then run around, and back up in front of the B&G for the recessional with the photographer. We'll even stop them and ask for a pose or for them to kiss. Then out of the church.

On the other extreme, I shot a Bat Mitzvah the other day for which I had to shoot from a box in the temple. Not only was I not allowed to move, I was hidden from view. But hey, that's what works for them, and for sure there was no chance of the photographer or videographer distracting anyone during the ceremony.

I think what several have said already is the most important. Get a sense of the B&G's culture, values, temperament, etc. You will quickly understand what does and does not fly.

Vito, that's a lot of running around! Just curious, but how many cameras do you use? How many cameramen? I'm wondering about the shots that you miss running from one place to another.

Moshing it up
 

I love receptions, and I love the .3 semi-fish eye I just got. I used it a lot for the reception on my most recent wedding because it made the crowd that much closer and more involved. I didn't need to do anything to get the bridesmaids to play to the camera. It was perfect.

Tell me about it. It's the most stressful part of the day for me.

That's why it's the most stressful part of the day for me. It's just me, no assistant, one camera. Once in a while two cameras and shooters. 99% of our contracts include full day coverage, so I arrive at a run at the church, trying to beat the arrival of the bride, whose house I've just left. I barely have time to mic up the groom and the podium and set up my tripod before I have to run back out and try to get her arriving. Not a chance of setting up an unmanned camera.

Meanwhile, the TWO photographers are languidly walking around, snapping shots here and there and chatting. It's nuts.

Surprisingly, if you time it right, you don't miss anything. You are repositioning yourself at the same time that the B&G and officiant are repositioning as well.

In Church when the priest speaks it is generally not accepted to walk around, it's not the first time I've seen a priest just stopping the ceremony and asking the photog to stop moving when he talks.
I work more or less the same way as Vito when doing the church recording and only move when they play music. Thats when I make the creative shots or film the guests. When they put on the rings, light the candle or sign the book then it's allowed to get real close. Running around with steadycam in the church is something that won't be accepted here.
During the rest of the day I try to take enough distance so they don't see me filming and use the zoom but if necessary I'm standing beside the couple if something important is happening. I do try to consider where I stand so the guests can also see what is happening but that's not always possible.
Also as Travis said try to see how a guest reacts to you filming him/her, if they clearly give you a signal that they don't like it, don't film them again up close.

I found it funny though reading about speaking when filming, sometimes people come up to me when I'm filming and start talking to me. If I capturing something important I ignore them and usually they shut up but most of the time you have to stop filming and make some polite conversation. I have made it a habit from the beginning never to speak when I'm filming.

I always asked the B&G how well they wanted us hidden. A few have requested NO visible camera operators during the ceremony (which means unattended cameras or only shooting from the back.) One bride's mother was legally blind - she could only see a foot or so in front of her. The bride said, "I don't care how obtrusive you have to be and I don't care how many people see you, I want faces on my video!" This was so the mother could later watch the video.

LOL yes so if the venue goes dark, we can still rock out a video for them.. "The darkest wedding of the year" Where all the activities will be under a spot light from the videographer's camera.

Yikes! If you did all that here in So Cali you would be blacklisted... banned... put on a hitlist... etc etc :D

Yeah, I've noticed from reading other posts that officiants/venues seem much more uptight about moving around there than here. We're pretty much left to do as we wish as long as we're not jerks about it. The Catholic priests just want us to not come up to the altar during the ceremony.

Usually I'm fighting for position with the twenty family members that are doing the same thing...

During the signing we come right up top. The photog often rearranges the flowers on the altar, poses the couple with the priest, etc.

As long as we check with the priest before the ceremony and ask about any restrictions, they're happy.

Case in point for me. I did a wedding at a church and got permission to film from the front pew right at the center aisle. I was told I couldn't move, though, meaning I would have to film the entire 25-minute ceremony handheld. I did it, and everything seemed fine (except my arms afterwards, lol).

A few months later I show up at the church for another wedding, and I'm asked for my business card so they can put me on the blacklist. I was shocked obviously, because I had followed their rules. Apparently, though, they were upset that I "leaned" out into the aisle during the bridal entrance. Nevermind the fact that I only leaned out about 10" to get a shot of the bride coming down the aisle, and that everyone in the church was standing and turned around looking at the bride. Ridiculous.

I explained that I never moved from my position, and that was the rule that I had agreed to. Nobody ever said anything about leaning. Jeez. I'm happy to say I was let off the hook with a "warning" after speaking rationally with the head pastor.

Travis, that's amazing! I didn't realize they were THAT uptight.

You know, the only reaction I ever got from a priest was a Portuguese wedding a year or two ago where, at the end of the ceremony, he made a point of congratulating myself and the photographer for being so sensitive and unobtrusive during the ceremony. He actually made everyone clap for us. Makes me wonder what the OTHER shooters are doing...

Other than that, they don't say much beyond giving a few restrictions.

You have to agree Travis that a 10" leaning angle is a bit over the top, in Belgium you would get arrested for this type of behavior. :)

That is really ridiculous, here I also know of one priest who warns me and the Photog before the ceremony starts that we are not allowed to move when he speaks or he will stop the ceremony. If i know I have to film there I warn the bridescouple that they can accept footage from mostly one angle in church and that they have to live with that.
Sometimes I move a little bit with my tripod, just to get a better view on some of the guests and even if i move at only 2 frames per second I see the priest peeking at me giving me the bad eye. :D

What does it mean if they put you on the "black list"? Never heared of that, do they have the right to refuse you?

Most of the churches aren't that bad. This one is just that way. But most of the churches are still pretty restrictive.

The Black List
 

That is a good question. I would imagine all they could do is raise a stink at the next wedding, but since the contract for the venue is between the B/G & church, then there would have to be a reference in that contract that specifically gives the church the ability to reject any vendors.

Could the church refuse to allow a ceremony to proceed with Vendor "X" because of imagined or real infraction in the past? Hard to say. That would be some horrible PR for the location...... but in this case, the location Travis is mentioning is sought after and booked far in advance, so chances are, the church would get its way. Like it or not. Then there is the attitude around here that "its only video" which contributes to downplaying the significance of our trade.

This isn't to say that the photographers have it any easier at the church, but when they move / shuffle in their seats, it is easier because they are using smaller equipment and can be more discrete about it.

My understanding is that the church can refuse to allow a vendor on their premises because it is their property. Now, how this would actually stand up in a court of law is a whole different matter. I've never signed any kind of contract with the church, so they don't have any legal document showing that I understood the terms of working there.

I'm also assuming they show the blacklist to any couple that books with them, and lets them know that those vendors aren't allowed. And since most couples book the location before anything else, they would see me on the blacklist and just never contact me, so it would be a non-issue for the church. Not to mention the church probably has a clause in their contract with the B&G that vendors on the blacklist aren't allowed on the premises.


Oh, not that it matters, and don't tell my wife, but photographers DO have it easier during the ceremony. They aren't expected to capture a 29.97 pictures per second, lol. So they can switch positions and not worry that they aren't getting shots. And don't get me started on audio, lol.

Here I'll cut your problem by 20%...... just shoot in 24p. Less frames to get messed up.

:-P

(ducks out of thread)

lol ... nice ....

Although I have never been "asked to leave" nor blacklisted I do know a couple of folks that have been and a few churches that do have the dreaded blacklist. They will ask the B&G when the book the church who they were planning on using for photog and video and then show them the book. If the B&G were thinking of using someone in the book the church people "recommend" that they don't.
As for holding up in court I think it might simply because the B&G were told that the vendors were not allowed in the church and since the church is not really under public domain I would have to think it would hold up. Now I don't know ANYONE that has been thru this kind of thing and frankly I think it's pretty petty BUT it is thier house and thier rules.
CASE IN POINT: about 3 or 4 years ago I did a wedding at a little church I had never been to before. I arrived my usual 1 1/2 hours before the ceremony, went to introduce my self to the pastor. I said, "Hi, I'm Don and I'm the video cameraman for the kids wedding." I didn't get to say anything else as the pastor who didn't shake my hand (which I had extended) nor did he stop doing whatever it was he was doing, he simply pointed to the balconey and said in a rather unpleasent tone of voice " you shoot it all from the balconey, no if's ands or but's about it. If you don't like it, tough!"
WOW! I forunatly had one of my cameras with me and had it running ( I learned the hard way to ALWAYS CMA and I don't care about the video I just want the audio-just for guys like him) so I went to the groom and told him what transpired. He was quite unhappy but as he said, "his house, his rules I guess".
Point being, if you piss off the officiant it makes it really hard for the next guy to go in and soon enough they don't want anyone there to shoot the wedding. This goes back many years. Older officiants or even younger ones that think we're going in with 17 cameras and a crew of 35. Yell CUT take it again when it doesn't look good ;-)

To me shooting a wedding is like shooting a breaking news event. Things may be planned and in a certain order but things change, things happen and we have no control over it. Get it the best you can and it is what it is.
Some churches are great some aren't but a lot of it has to do with the person wearing the robe. Some are jerks some are great. Most fall in the middle.
Oh well, it is what it is. :-)
Don

A bit off-topic, but this really bothers me. I've had this experience too, and as a Christian myself, it really ticks me off that people who are supposed to be representing the values of their religion can act like such jerks. I mean, we're all human, but it's just silly for a pastor to treat me with disdain when he doesn't know a thing about me. Okay, back on topic. Just had to rant.

My List.
 

The following are my "no-nos" list. Ok some of these are more like a to-do list, but I think you get the idea. These can be summed up as "be prepared, polite, and professional but be sure to get the shot."

-do not make noise
-do not use lights
-do not move if behind the B&G
-do not let guests / vendors get in front of the camera, move the camera if needed
-do not be late
-do not forget to ask if there have been any schedule changes
-do not forget to bring backups for any critical device
-do not forget to bring a head cleaner tape
-do not forget to use the bathroom before the ceremony
-do not forget to have spare tapes on you in case of an emergency quick change (like you look at see 1min left on the tape but the speeches are about to start).

I have a watergun mounted to the underside of my camera.......................ok, so I'm kidding.

As the general theme of this thread is respect, I find that if you communicate clearly and truly respect the people who have churches, then sometimes they will bend a bit, but when we leave a place we want to feel as if we respected the place. This is where a contract is helpful.

Great info - everyone!

Thanks!

I just did a wedding a few weeks ago and when the bride got back from the honeymoon called me to let me know they were back and politely inquired about the progress of thier video (which of course wasn't done yet! which reminds me, I'm supposed to be working on it now)

The interesting thing was that she stated that she was very happy with my work and that I did a great job.
She hasn't even seen 1 minute of footage yet! It just shows that people appreciate vendors who conduct themselves professionally.

Although this was the same wedding where I decided to break in my 15 year old son on 2nd camera (to replace my 17 year old daughter has gotten a "real job"). Well, during the setup at the church he engaged in a conversation with someone in the bridal party who was hanging around, and commented that this was his first wedding. I told him that he should not really be advertising this because our clients need to have confidence in us. He responded "I can't go around lying to people all day, can I?!"

Oh well, at least his footage was decent.

Mark G