Cancellations
 

Ok so i slipped up getting low deposits, smack smack smack!!! Past 6 weeks 3 cancellations, attitude take me to court if you like!!! so new contract and terms and conditions!!! Ok so now how do i get the bloody bride to sign?? 4 people put of by new terms already?
new terms 20% deposit of the total package, balance payable 30 days before the due date? any cancellations within 2 months before wedding 50% payable for cancellation fee, within 4 months 25% payable!!! but anyone on here taken someone to court and won? by the way i was threatened by the bride? take me to court and see what my partner will do?

Re: Cancellations
 

20% up front???? I get 50% with the balance due no later than 30 days prior to the date. Cancel 90 days out lose 50% of the retainer. Cancel within 90 days, lose it all. That's kind of the way it is around here (my area that is) although everyones cancellation policy is a bit different. It's pretty much accepted policy to get anywhere from 25 to 50% with balance due prior to date of event. I have to admit that I haven't had anyone not sign because of the terms. At least not in the last 15 years or so.
I haven't taken anyone to court but I have had my lawyer send the threatening letter a few times, and that seemed to get it done. Have I ever been taken to court? Well I've been threatened withit a few times and here's what I always say (since the threat always comes over the phone or face to face)
THEM: I'm going to take you to court and sue you into oblivion"
ME: "OK then I guess our conversation is done but before you go here is the name of my lawyer and his phone number so just have your attorney contact mine and you and I will have no more conversation. See you in court"
Sometimes it gets a bit harsher but generally after that they come to their senses. If not, well that's why my attorney makes the big money.
There are ways to handle this type situation that don't include bodily harm but usually when they threaten it because of frustration on their part and sometimes it's not with you but the overall situation.
Sometimes I just let them yell and scream and threaten then ask them if they're done and what can I do to help them?
Sometimes you have to be a head doctor not a videographer!

Re: Cancellations
 

I haven't been in business long, less than two years, but I have a non-refundable retainer for new clients. It's currently just $150 dollars, but it screens out most of the "bottom feeders." Existing clients aren't a problem, of course most of my work isn't weddings, so I haven't had any repeat wedding clients yet :) and I hope I don't, the divorce rate is too high.

In my area, it's enough money to get a potential client to pause and think before potentially wasting their time and mine, but not enough to scare a real prospect off.

Re: Cancellations
 

Guys thanks, don trouble is in liverpool ( rough city), i am not frightened but aware that they could if they wish come down and sort out our shop if you know what i mean?? it did sound like that. I suppose i could take it further and contact lawyers! but isnt it a whole lot of messing around money time energy? i think i will leave that one alone, he looked a beast anyway and rough, but i will keep to the 20% it seems fair for what i charge anyway, but will have to be careful whom i choose i suppose!! thanks

Re: Cancellations
 

Hi Steve

I do 1/3rd on booking, 1/3rd 2 weeks prior to the wedding and 1/3 on delivery of the DVD's. I figure that if they cancel at the very end or never ask for their DVD's I still have 2/3rds at least and brides seem to like the idea of splitting in three.

The first two payments are non-refundable ..end of story..but I will transfer the booking to a new date if it's free in special cases.

I have never had a outright cancellation and only one bride has transferred (I rebooked the date too!!!) She is stuck overseas so the wedding is now in 2012.

Brides have never questioned the payment options at all!!! Some might get a little put-off it I asked for everything up front. I also have never had a bride that didn't pay me in full!!

If they sign and contract and pay ..then cancelled I would still have 1/3rd for doing nothing!!

Chris

Re: Cancellations
 

"I do 1/3rd on booking, 1/3rd 2 weeks prior to the wedding and 1/3 on delivery of the DVD's. I figure that if they cancel at the very end or never ask for their DVD's I still have 2/3rds at least and brides seem to like the idea of splitting in three."

You're still stuck doing 100% of the work. Maybe ask for the payment 2 weeks after the wedding and tell them you don't edit the video until final payment?

Re: Cancellations
 

Yeah I don't get this.. this is weddings were talking about. Get it all up front or you're out of luck if they get divorced or run out of cash after the wedding (which happens a lot).

Ok, so this is (should be) standard across the board for our industry (Don's got it right).
50% at signing, the remainder due two weeks before event. 'Nuff said.

If they don't pay, we don't show. The money is non-refundable because we secured the date in which we refused other business. We fulfill the rest of the contract because we are a legitimate business and want referrals/re-occuring business.

If you're having trouble at 20% you're capturing the wrong market, and/or you're work needs overhauling. Which sounds right considering you now have multiple cancelations casualties. Just remember, the people who want to pay the least will expect the most out of you. They're nothing but trouble, you don't want them as clients. I know, been there done that.

Good luck.. GO LIVERPOOL :D

Re: Cancellations
 

Not trying to stir things up, but for those of you who require everything up front, try looking at the situation from the bride's perspective. She puts down thousands of dollars down for a product that she hasn't seen yet. She's heard horror stories of videographers that didn't show up on her wedding day. Or expected videographer A, but videographer B shows up. Or gets her dvd and is disappointed because it wasn't as promised. Or took too long to edit. Or missed key shots. Or shots were too dark, or was out of focus...etc etc etc...

If you take all her money upfront but is short on delivery/ expectations, she'll feel you ripped her off. Then she'll tell everyone on facebook what you did, which would hurt future business for you.

Re: Cancellations
 

Warren I agree but at least around here they also pay for the reception in advance, at least 10 to 14 days. Guess what. there have been a handful of banquet facilities that have gone bankrupt and cloed the doors between the time they paid and the time of the event.
All I'm saying is that it can and has happened in all aspects of the industry.

On the other side if the coin, I have been burned. Not once but twice. Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me About 15-18 years ago I started getting more money upfront and paying before the event. Back then a few brides (well fathers of the bride actually) kind of balked but 99% went along. In the greater Chicago area thats the norm for almost all vendors of no matter what they are suppling.

At the bottom of my service agreement it states very clearly and yes I do go over it with them that if the 2nd payment isn't received by no more than 30 days prior to the date of the event the service agreement is considered to be null and void and I have no further obligation to honor the agreement. IOW I ain't showin' up! Noones God for a couple of days and I do send out reminder emails, calls and even snail mail and guess how many have renigged!? ZERO, none, nada no a one. They know they lose money if they do.

Today was a perfect example. I booked a wedding for September last November. 50% retainer. Got a call from the brides mother, wedding cancelled!!!!! I heard the bride crying in the background, mom was very upset on the phone. I said "I hate to ask but why"? Short answer, the bride caught the groom with his "hand" in someone elses cookie jar. Bad and sad. Jerk. Anyway, I said nothing about the retainer but I will return half of it as that's what my retainer dictates. I mean it's not likely that the bride will be rebooking me or my photog freind or the DJ I referred her to anytime soon and I may be able to rebook the date but who knows.
Such a goofy business.

Re: Cancellations
 

"Just remember, the people who want to pay the least will expect the most out of you. They're nothing but trouble, you don't want them as clients. I know, been there done that."

I must be very lucky then. I do need to raise our initial non-refundable signup retainer for next year to hold a date a bit, but for some years now we've had a standard affordable $300 non-refundable deposit with payment due before time of service.

A lot of people are trying to secure their vendors all at once and sometimes don't have too much right up front with how much everything adds up so quickly holding their choice people. Just because they can't pay half up front doesn't mean the people that can only pay a small amount up front are going to be demanding jerks about their end product expectations.

I've worked with some of the nicest clients ever and ones who have paid for our higher end packages vs. the lower end packages have had no difference in the attitude or expectations, nor is our attitude toward them any different from one another. They've actually all been great. People have different budgets and needs, it doesn't make them any more or less of individuals.

Re: Cancellations
 

Warren, I used to look at it from the bride's perspective .. until the economy crashed and we had several brides default on their final payments. We were the most expensive in our market and we were working with high-end couples, and yet still it became an issue.

We changed our policy and several years later our bookings have only gone up. I would never go back to split payments at this point. Of course, we also deliver an amazing product and our couples are always thrilled, so we don't have to worry about the other issues you mentioned.

Re: Cancellations
 

Hey everyone thanks for your inputs, i do think i dont ask enough for deposits, £100 for a £895 booking, i have now put my deposit price up to £200 and see what happens, only tonight a potential bride rang me on recomendation from someone and the minute i mentioned £200 deposit she nearly choked hehe... I was strong though and told her well thats our policy, she then said she will go elswhere, ok so i lost already!!!!
See what happens but its tough around here and because there are so many out of work they all think they can become videographers???? I would say in our area im up there with the best but the bride no longer cares, im tellin ya, its tough in england, but yet i know cinematographers in good/nice areas who are charging £2000 and getting it so???? steve

Re: Cancellations
 

Yep you are very lucky!

I certainly agree in that they all don't go that way, and its really not about if they can afford it or not, its just been our experience that the more they pay, the more appreciative they are of who you are and the work crafted. And in contrast the opposite is almost always true. If the first thing they say is "I want a deal" or "just tell me your price", then we know right off the bat what type of client this is, and that its probably not going to work out. Keeping prices/deposits higher weeds out these "transactional" types of clients. If this doesn't makes sense here's a good, quick page on client differences: Transactional vs Relational Clients

Certainly we will get some people who are legitimately nice, good couples who truly want to work with us but don't have all the cash on the deposit but are willing to make ends meet to get us at their event, in cases like that we will bend on deposit to 35% if we feel led to.

I think it's more an attitude thing or perhaps in this area we just have a lot of broke complainers with high expectations. The later seems overwhelmingly true.. its LA.

Re: Cancellations
 

Yep I understand.. Really I do.

Consider again though that you're just catering to that market. It is what you are attracting.

So then consider also that if for example Travis (Serendipity), Ray Roman, Elysium, Kevin (PacificPics) or myself (VisualMasterpiece), etc..etc..etc came over to that area they would still probably do alright and the right market would find them. I suppose that's why a lot of us focus on destination events for a good portion of business. We've (always room for improvement) figured out how to attract the right clients and turn off the rest. As Travis mentioned above, going back to the old way of business would be too awful for words.

Just hang in there, try not to get too upset by "rejecting" business. Just be aware of what you're attracting to you're studio. Sooner or later it will click.

Re: Cancellations
 

Thanks Michael some great points, cheers

Re: Cancellations
 

Steve, with great respect I think you're wrong relating cost/budget/willingness to pay to a "good" or "bad" area; touch wood, we've never had a defaulter and some of our couples are definitely from the "wrong side of the tracks"; indeed I'd go further and say that there's almost an inverse ratio, the more people appear to have struggled to raise our fee, the more reliable they are in terms of paying. Equally, some of the clients who seem to need reminding about paying come from very salubrious locales, big houses and apparently have healthy bank balances.

On the other hand in our trading area I'm definitely with Warren and Chris regarding the payment schedule; how anyone can justify asking for all the money when they haven't done anything except charge their batteries is beyond me. And I don't accept any of the spurious comparisons. The reception venue has to lay out for the food supplies; the dress will be delivered before the wedding etc. But along with the DJ, the band and the table magician, the video and photographer are notably those who do all their work either on the day or after it.

The constant complaint we hear is that "it's two months and I haven't heard from the photographer yet he's had all my money". In my view it's indefensible and quite contrary to the rest of the business, especially as (apart from the big gents rental outfits) very few wedding suppliers are substantial companies so the clients have to hope YOU don't go bump before the wedding.

And that happens. We know of wedding dress suppliers, cake makers and florists as well as photographers go under shortly before the wedding. The clients lose all their money and have to grub around finding replacements at the last minute.

The "all up front" people aren't even in line with the main part of our business where the norm is 50% on commissioning, 50% on delivery. The variation we bring in allows for the extra long lead times typically involved in weddings.

Finally, regarding doing all the work for 2/3 the fee, unless you can show an absolute water-tight contract AND a capricious or wanton disregard of the circumstances by the clients the courts I am aware of will usually not award you the full contract price but deduct what they regard as recoverable expenses eg equipment, travel, accommodation - generally what you get is your profit and few of us get 2/3 of the fee for that. Additionally the courts are typically sympathetic to couples who break up before the ceremony rather than after it.

Overall Steve, I'd urge you to move your price away from the budget end of the market where choice is driven by cost and not all the more important reasons people should have for choosing you, and don't worry if some people can't afford you. Most of our clients will never commission a video again in their lives and have little or no idea what is involved. Far better to have a client react negatively at your deposit than at your final bill.

Re: Cancellations
 

Thanks Phillip...
I do actually feel my work deserves a higher price tag as i have been told on recent bookings and viewings, but maybe its in my mind with regard to my prices and awareness that i want to try to work every week and worried i may not get custom, i am charging £695 first basic package, £795 middle package with morn prep, top package £995 first dance and bits after, i know in my area some are £500, and some £1500 and the latter are cheesy old fashioned who are now starting to copy my work, in fact one has completely copied my web apart from colour and even my demo trailer down to everything, Now i cant do anything about that but to jump and take a huge step is a bit frightening... steve

Re: Cancellations
 

Steve, imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but it may also be "passing off" which a stern letter from your solicitor should settle.

Since we started selling our single price, high value and all inclusive product we've noticed others emulating it all or in parts. For example, it seems to me that the number of people including five DVDs is increasing as it should. Including only one when couples would obviously want more was simply a way of making the price seem lower, ie a con. I'm happy with that; our competitors are having to work harder for their pay and the client is the eventual winner. It's like photographers including one parent album. Come on. How many wedding couples have only one parent? It's just a trick to make the price look lower.

Obviously you're a man who enjoys his work so I can understand why you don't want to price yourself out of the market but I have a good photographer friend who has always under-priced his work. Now he's a little older he grumbles but he still has the control in his hands. He does 40 odd weddings a year. I suggest he should raise his prices by 25% which would still put him in the same ballpark as his competitors. At that price he can afford to book 25% fewer weddings, enjoy 10 more weekends with his family and still earn the same income with every likelihood that he won't suffer financially.

Do the sums and bite the bullet but I accept that it's easier to say that from my standpoint than yours. In the end I'd ask, "What's the real risk?"

Re: Cancellations
 

Great points Phillip, i have 27 booked this year just done 3 so 24 left, if im more expensive what you are saying do less work for the same money! if i can then get the buisness! Will study hard at my strategy, do you think i could create two websites then if the more expensive one takes off i could then combine the two at a later stage? steve

Re: Cancellations
 

i had a couple cancel two weeks out. they lost ALL of their retainer, and I am debating suing them for the balance. I had another event book me for more money than they were paying that weekend, so I arranged for my b crew to cover theirs, as was noted in my contract, and the wedding planner talked them into cancelling me and hiring someone else. complete bullsh!t.

Re: Cancellations
 

Thats a pain scott, i am still mad that i turned down other people for these idiots......

Re: Cancellations
 

$495 down, 1/2 of balance 30 days before, final payment due upon commencement of editing seems to work for me.

Scott, the idea of suing a bride is bad for business, and pointless. It is my job to protect myself, not depend on the customer. Collecting on a judgement is close to impossible if someone truly doesn't want to pay.

When I have a cancellation, I thank them and move on. Your bride got nervous, and her wedding planner was trying to protect her. You should have told them you understood and were sorry they felt that way.

Scott, if you have a clause that provides for you to do another gig in any situation except in an emergency, I would take it out. You got another job that paid more, but you've lost potential clients through bad word of mouth via two families and a wedding planner, and everyone they will talk to.

Technically you might be justified because of your contract to press a client for money after cancelling, but on a business level, I'm not so sure.

The way I see it, few put hard-earned money down on a wedding unless they are pretty serious. I have one bride I've been waiting on for 18 months to pay her final payment. She doesn't have her video yet, so I'm not stressed. I call her every few months, we chat, catch up, and then I wait a few more months. Her husband lost his job, and times have been quite tough. If I get bored and have nothing to do I might edit the darn thing and give it to them for half price, I really don't care. They are really nice kids, and I always liked them anway.

Re: Cancellations
 

No no no. I just saw cancellation fees mentioned Steve. Don't put that in your paperwork! It never works! Just get a third or so down, 1/3 about a month before, and the rest before you give the video.

This is not high finance, and is very simple. Cancellation fees, etc are pointless. I've been doing weddings since 1984 and NEVER had a cancellation fee. Just don't give refunds, that's all you have to do. End of story.

Non-refundable deposits are normal, use that and stop worrying about your "contracts". They will not protect you in the end anyway. You design a payment system that protects you, and you're done.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but small proprietors will often talk about "contracts" and "what is in my Contract". I say forget that crap.

What you need is an agreement that simply spells things out in a non-threatening way, not a "Contract" per se.

Re: Cancellations
 

Thanks Jeff i get your point, so are you saying put nothing at the bottom of the booking form or just simplify saying cancellations fee apply or just say deposits non refundable? and get the two deposits and balance say a week before? steve

Re: Cancellations
 

I'm not in favour of two websites Steve unless they are absolutely separate with a patently different product - not just different prices. That's a recipe for disaster in my view. I have a number of websites but they're for different products/services.

The thing is that if you go with my suggestion and put your price up 25% and after a year you've lost 27% and not 22% then just drop your price back down, and offer any booked clients a refund of the difference - they'll be puzzled but will receive it much better than if you get caught out. My better instinct would be to market your site more aggressively but that's something I often suggest and people here know where I stand.

But I think you should have the courage to go for it. Unless I've seriously misjudged your market and prices I can't see what you have to fear.

Re: Cancellations
 

What you do totally depends on your area and market. We followed the same principle as many photographers. A booking fee (notice not deposit) followed by the full balance prior to filming. Yes, there is the argument that the bride shouldnt pay having not seen the final movie yet were all happy to plonk down £16k on a new car not knowing if we will like it.

We also say booking fee as by law you can be asked to refund a deposit should they change their mind. A non-refundable booking fee (deductible from the final balance) entitles you to keep it should they default or change their mind.

The point of deposits/booking fees is to stop brides and potential time wasters from changing their mind and thus you loosing income. A deposit is rarely a barrier for most couples unless they are simply not sure and are thinking that they may cancel. If they are confident with their decision then they should be happy to pay the fee.

But its upto you. Some ive seen have no set price and let the bride decide after shes seen it what she pays. Some have a £50 booking fee, some ask for all up front, some after. Some give 1 copy, some give 10. Your call.

Its about trying different options and figuring out what works for you. Some brides want to give a copy of their wedding video to everyone in their family. Some dont. Find out what works for your particular market. Have your standard package contain 1 DVD but at times do a promo where you give some freebies. You have to remember, were in the marketing and sales business. Ever notice how MFI always had a sale. Made a £10k kitchen sound mighty tasty when it was just £5k didnt it.

Re: Cancellations
 

Steve, this subject has all but been thrashed to death so I'm not going to comment on the specifics of the previous post except to remind everyone in the UK (and possibly elsewhere) that a sale is a legally defined event and requires the product to have been offered for sale for some time (31 days I think) in the previous period (again I think it's 3 months) so choose your words carefully.

The only other point is that MFI went bust, perhaps DFS might have been a better example?

Re: Cancellations
 

I thank everyone for there input on my dilemas... i am tending to side with Jeff on this, so im going to get around 35% on booking, then 35% 30 days before, and the final balance of 30% a week before the wedding day. if i start frightening them with cancellation fees, Jeff is right it will frighten them off, so if they cancel 25 days before then i have 70% non refundable deposits, i think this is the only way as i have lost out the past 6 weeks, this way at least im getting something. steve

Re: Cancellations
 

One thing to consider... can they afford to pay.

Our terms used to be final balance 2 weeks before the big day. Good idea we thought. The couple get to keep as much of their money for longer but then realised... thats when every other supplier requires their balance to be paid and on a number of occasions we had the words "we have no money left, we had to pay the photographer". So your then stuck in a dilema.

Just before the wedding and after people are usually flat broke. So while you require payment they simply dont have the cash.

Our terms are now 4 weeks before. We ensure we get paid before the photographer and others to simply avoid this situation.

It was more of a problem when we were in the sub £1k market so its worth bearing in mind. Its something which happens rarely but when it does your left wondering if you will ever get paid.

1 week before is also the mad time, when they are running around doing anything and everything so having to pay you is another job on this already busy list. 2-4 weeks before things are usually calmer.

Re: Cancellations
 

Steve, consider Danny's input also. I collect second payment 30 days prior, but final payment when video is being edited.

Danny gets final payment 30 days prior, similar to me, except he's getting it all, I"m only getting second payment. Either way, the week prior makes us a nuisance and is inconvenient for the customer. Not all of them, some are so organized it doesn't matter, but for many it's a bad time as Danny points out.

His reasoning about the week prior to the wedding is very sound, IMO.

I prefer to wait for my final payment until I begin editing. That is just me, but if you need to collect it all prior, I would consider's Danny's idea.

I personally like to have money to look forward to on the end, it spreads out my income, and the brides like to not have paid in advance for something they don't have.

Many end up paying in advance anyway, with the way I have it set up, but it's about 50/50.

Re: Cancellations
 

Good points Danny/Jeff, taken on board thanks. steve

Re: Cancellations
 

Thank you Jeff. I would never sue a bride.

Re: Cancellations
 

I no longer work in this field (it was long ago), but I've seen a couple of points here that I would like to address. Ability to pay is a recurring theme since you often have some young people just starting out who are likely strapped for cash, and perhaps the parents aren't able to help much. Look into providing options like Bill Me Later, take credit cards or at least PayPal so they can use a credit card. PayPal has a subscription option so you could let them subscribe to monthly payments and that would permit them to avoid interest (selling point). Try to make it easy for them to pay you.

Sometimes things happen beyond your customers' control. Try to help them out instead of throwing them under the bus because they are forced to cancel. Good will is difficult to find after it's lost. Negative comments about how you treated someone will circulate for years.

Also, a recurring comment is on the inability to collect judgements. There is a process by which you can require the party who lost a lawsuit to report all of their assets and income, enabling you to then garnishee wages or file liens on property. Failure to comply I believe is a misdemeanor, so there should be some motivation there. That might be worth looking into.