Can they sue you?
 

Guys, I would like to know, if the bride or groom can sue you for uploading their short musical video on You Tube or Vimeo without their concern? Haven't you got the rights of these videos?

Stelios

Re: Can they sue you?
 

I guess that if you took and own the images they can't prevent you unless you agreed not in your contract with them.

Many videographers/filmmakers rely on their online samples to promote themselves and upload their footage without any reference to, or thought of, the wishes of the clients. I never would without asking them first. I know that as film-makers/videographers we view images as material but couples regard it as something more personal and don't always have the same enthusiasm for world-wide exposure.

I have the same sort of agreement with commercial business where the inside of their company buildings and/or working practices may have commercial sensitivity. If a company declines my request to use clips from the work I shoot for them I'm happy to abide.
Recently I filmed for a world-wide company. In the particular building they re-package returned goods for a number of national retailers, They wanted to see as many brands as possible being worked on to show at a meeting of their top management to show the new facility but they didn't want anything that showed the various company logos getting on to the internet as it might compromise their relationships with them. Others have bespoke machinery or specialised processes which they don't want their competitors to see.

I would think that to be sued there'd have to be some sort of contract or agreement that had been broken.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Hi Stelios

If it's not in your contract then it's worth putting it in!! Mine sayssomething like : "We reserve the right to use clips for demonstration, publication or other purposes"

As George says, wedding videographers need to show previous work to new clients whether it's in DVD format or as an online clip. I however always change the music track if there is any likelyhood of copyright issues when uploading to YouTube.

I think just once I didn't upload a clip on the bride's request as her new hubby was a police officer and used to do undercover work...I complied of course with that one!!

Chris

Re: Can they sue you?
 

If the bride and groom contract you to shoot the video, then by default it is considered work for hire and they own the copyright. If you shoot the video free of charge, then by default you own the copyright.

Even if you do own the copyright, you may want to get a release from the people appearing in the video (unless the wedding was held in a public place) before broadcasting it on YouTube. Even if you don't own the copyright, there is a possibility that privately showing the video to a prospective client for comment and analysis would be considered fair use.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Worth mentioning that's not the case everywhere - here in the UK, for example, the photographer has the copyright unless it is assigned to somebody else.

Personally, I never put material on Youtube or Vimeo for public consumption unless the person who commissioned it gives their approval, because they will always assume it belongs to them, as they paid for it - even if your contract says the opposite. I like the common sense approach - like the Police Officer example - makes everyone happy.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Eric - this is interesting what you are saying. Is this the law there?
Chris - No contract is signed with the videos I shoot. We verbally agree with the price and what I shoot and that's it. In our country most videographers do not sign a contract as it is considered that you don't trust each other. The word of mouth is good enough.

Stelios

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Stelios.
Do you have a situation in hand, is someone objecting to you doing this or is this this just general information you want for the future?
It's worth checking your local laws of copyright then.

I'd have thought it would be sensible to have some sort of tangible contract or at least a less formally written agreement for just this sort of case as the "trust your word of mouth" agreement falls apart when something has not been said but is just assumed by one side or the other.

Is this how all business is conducted in Cyprus?

Re: Can they sue you?
 

George fortunately did not happened to me ( as I always ask my clients about this) but to a friend of mine some 2 months ago. that is why I wanted to know. No that's not how all business is conducted in Cyprus.

Stelios

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Stelios.
Reading back my last comment written like that seems a bit impermanent, it wasn't mean to be, I'm just surprised that even something as personal as wedding video is undertaken without some sort of written agreement.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

George don't worry I didn't take it like that, but you are right that something as personal as wedding video is undertaken without some sort of written agreement. Maybe I should do that but as I said the jobs that I get ( and most of other guys as well ) is because they know you or your friend and that's why they come to you. Don't forget Cyprus is a small place and in towns and cities almost everyone knows everyone.

Stelios

Re: Can they sue you?
 

That's not true in the UK, EU or Australia & in fact I am pretty sure that it's not the case in the US. Work for hire has a very particular meaning & the simplest example is where you are hired as a camera operator & hand over the tapes/memory cards at the end of the day. It's not a work for hire if you then go ahead to do the edit & produce a new work of art i.e. the wedding video.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

I have a few demo's on my site of which I have a verbal agreement with the couple to use it there, I have had 2 couples so far that requested after a year or so to remove them and then I just do that. I do however publish a lot of trailers without their permission on a password protected site and then send them the link as surprise before they have their actual dvd's, for the past years they all loved that as they decide who get's the link. I get a peak in traffic to my site everytime I do that and free advertising :)

Re: Can they sue you?
 

This is false information. Work for hire in the USA with independent contractors can only be established with a contract. You are not in the employment of the B&G and you can not be assumed to be in a work for hire situation.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Hi Stelios

You still should have a contract, even a simple one, normally if you tell the couple it's for their protection and safety... I mean if a videographer did a verbal deal with someone, walked out to his car and got run over by a bus (I wouldn't want that to happen of course) what would be the bride and groom's chances of claiming from the late videographer's estate for the money they just paid him??

You don't need a 200 page document but some basic terms and conditions I think are wise for both of you!

If you totally messed up their wedding..can they sue you for huge amounts of money??? My contract has a limited liability paragraph saying that liability is limited to a full refund only.

I must admit I have never had a bride question a contract and sign to say she agrees with the terms and conditions but it does make good business sense and you are running a business.

Chris

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Stelos,
if you post this question I guess you're looking for advice, my advice - if the video already on the net take it down, if it's not posted yet don't post it,
you're not going to gain a lot from one wedding video sample, but you can loose a lot over a single pissed off client.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Hi Buba
As I said earlier it did not happened to me but to a friend videographer who uploaded their video without them knowing. He assumed that it will be OK by them. He never signed a contract with them but the moment they saw the video on You Tube they started threatening him that they are going to sue him. That is why I would like to know if they have grounds to sue him or not.

Stelios

Re: Can they sue you?
 

To my limited and non-lawyerly understanding, there are at least two questions at play here:

1. CAN they sue? That's the easy one and the answer is almost certainly yes. It is often said that anyone can sue anyone at any time for anything. All that is needed is the desire to do so, a willing attorney (and maybe not even that for small claims or with a knowledgeable enough complainant), and a judge unwilling to declare a case frivolous a priori. Not related to video, but there's a guy that goes around my local community (allegedly) provoking incidents with people so he can sue them. At last word, he had at least a couple dozen cases pending. So hey, short answer is yes.

2. Might they prevail? Probably not on copyright, since as already pointed out, the shooter does normally hold copyright. However, there can be other issues like commercial appropriation of likeness, or defamation if it is a bloopers type of clip that clearly is intended to embarrass them. If they show real harm from the unauthorized publication, they could potentially win a judgment.

Written contracts that address common issues like advertising use of footage, rights and limitations, and have arbitration clauses are a good thing.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

anyone can sue anybody for any reason, but you never can tell if it'll be successful, not a single lawyer will guarantee you positive outcome for any case, especially in case like this one;
but as I said, for potential clients one pissed off bride can outweigh all wonderful online samples,
last year, my friend (one of the best wedding photographers in Toronto) lost 25% of his business because of one very unhappy couple.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Agreed. Work for hire is established with a contract. I generally work this way: I hand the DVD master over to a duplicating house and the customer directly purchases as many disks as they like from the duplicating house. The advantage is that I get paid only for my services and don't have to worry about sales tax. If you sell a DVD package, then you are essentially contracting with yourself to do the shooting needed for producing a DVD product. In this case, the couple pays sales tax on the entire package, and you retain the copyright by default. To avoid misunderstanding I suspect most videographers explicitly specify the details of who owns the copyright.

The current situation might be clarified by the following questions: Did you charge sales tax for the whole DVD package? Did you place a copyright notice on the DVD?

In either case, broadcasting a video on YouTube is quite different than private viewing with a prospective client. Well packaged promotional materials and a professional website are important. I think you should get a release from the bride and groom before uploading their video. Write a letter wishing them well and explaining that you would like to use their wedding trailer on your website because how great it turned out. Don't mention YouTube because you may want to use a different content delivery service later. Follow up with a call and get something in writing.

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Eric this is a very good and clever idea. to get this though in writing it might be difficult here.

Stelios

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Quick check of the US copyright law (link on Wikipedia under work for hire) says that specific criteria make an agreement a work for hire. Mainly that there must be a contract, it must say it is a work for hire and it must be signed by both parties. If any of those are missing, it's not a work for hire and the author retains the copyright.

Can they sue? As said, yes they can regardless of what was agreed upon. I always keep copyrights and any agreement says I can do whatever I want, whenever I want with my works. I don't actually need to say that since it's mine but at least I'm being up front.

Copyrights are a really big deal as there's so many different types of media and uses not dreamed about 20 years ago. The copyright holder holds all the chips but I'd still write as much as I can into an agreement so that there's no bad feelings.

That said, in the end, if they asked me to take something down and I didn't have a big stake in it then I'd take it down. Cheers

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Stelios is in CYPRUS, so I'm going to suspect that international and EU/local copyright laws are likely to apply, and probably little or nothing like US law. Legal principles tend to vary significantly by location...

In the US, anyone CAN sue, it's pretty fast and loose, and lots of "underemployed" attorneys out there...

As a practical matter, it appears that the local customs in Cyprus are a little more relaxed, and I'd suspect a few appologies for the misunderstanding and a take down of the video in question, and the matter would be over... as it should be in a social situation that isn't based on lawsuits at the drop of a hat. People make mistakes... in this case, the old saw "easier to ask forgiveness than permission" seems to apply... and maybe permission would have been BETTER?

Maybe the clients "can" sue, but whether there's any grounds for recovery or anything beyond "threats" is another matter. As pointed out, should the dispute "go public", there could be FAR more serious consequences, so better to "smooth things over" ASAP, and move on.

FWIW, I'm jealous that Stelios lives in a place where they do things the "old fachioned" way and don't "need" detailed contracts (that probably won't hold up, or will have to be defended to the last comma, once attorneys get involved anyway) - handshakes used to be good, I miss those days...

Re: Can they sue you?
 

Dave ABSOLUTELY agree with you in all what you have said.

Stelios