Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Thanks - good points.

I'm going to try and upload the footage I shot at the camera store so you all can tell me what you see. Would be interesting.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Never thought to mention it before but of course the Sony NX30 is the "Pro" version of the Sony PJ760 that does come with XLR's , shotgun mic,a larger battery with some extra firmware to give true timecode etc at about the same price as the XA10. Might also be worth a look. I have a small brace I had for years with an early JVC camera that I often use to hold against my shoulder as Noa suggests.

The Sony's always over expose so if your tests were all done in low light in auto they would be for sure over exposed. The image is brighter than reality. I find that fixing using AE shift it not only brings this closer to what is real but also seems to reduce the very fine grain that does appear if left in auto.

Ron Evans

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Ron: Your point about the Sony pushing harder and increasing the gain in auto mode is a good one, and something I'm reviewing in the footage now. The only problem is that even if true and I can lower the noise and get a better result in manual mode vs auto, I often need/want to be in auto mode. Now if the picture can really be as good or better, then maybe...

I'm looking at the footage now, and going back to the camera store later today for one last hands-on test before I buy (that will be today too).

I'm trying to export the footage I shot from AE, but the files are understandably huge (900mb for just under 4 minutes with an h264 .mov). Any suggestions for rendering a fair representation I can show you on Vimeo?

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

You can only lower the noise if you lower the gain when in manual, if automode gives you too much noise but if the image is well exposed there's not much you can do about it, you could lower the gain in manual but then resulting in an underexposed image. I have not even tried to remove grain as for my use (and clients) it no issue.

I usually import and work with native files, then export as a mpeg2 HD 1080p file and import into handbrake and then render at 5000kbs, 2pass, 720p file and upload that to vimeo, gives me very good results and handbrake encodes very fast. This workflow for internet use is a fast one, even one my 2 year old pc.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

When you use AE shift you are in auto but telling the camera to either make the picture darker or lighter from what it wanted to use. If you ask it to darken the picture it will most certainly reduce the gain and consequently the grain one would see in low light situations. Most of the time I have my Sony's in full negative AE shift in the theatre or with the CX700 even normal use at least -0.5ev. Produces a better image for me anyway.

Ron Evans

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Yes, I can concur that my cx730 overexposes as well when in auto, me too has the ae shift set to a negative value incase I have to run one of my camera's in auto.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Thanks guys. Trying to upload some footage to Vimeo now. We'll see if it chokes...

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

I've upload a shorter clip of the 3 cameras shooting the same shot.

***I know it is not the exact same conditions, shot, settings, and is in now way fair. :-) What I did was shoot most of the same locations in the store in auto mode. I didn't have the time to play with the manual settings, and since I'll be in auto mode often, this was good enough for a first test.

Not going to tell you yet which footage is which camera. You''ll see the quick break in footage to tell when the next cam is shooting. One interesting note is that the compressing Vimeo did actually reduced the noise quite a bit, so it's not a perfect example.

I've uploaded am much longer version with better examples that is converting now.

Watch this on the vimeo site in HD, in full mode, and try with scaling on and off or you see little grain! (damn - the bad doesn't look near as bad here)

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

A reason why the Sony might seem noisier in these conditions is because you zoomed in, it closes it iris down pretty quickly meaning it will compensate with a higher gain. From tests I have seen the Canon does not close the iris as fast when zooming meaning less gain at comparable zooming lengths.
So, if you plan do do quite some zooming in darker areas the Canon will be the better choice I think. If you would have played back the clips in the camera at the store and if the settings where set to display the camera data you could have checked what the gain values where.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

I think that's a very accurate point. I did notice it got worse with zoom, and almost any distance.

It looks like Vimeo only allows 1 HD video per free account, so I'm going to delete this one and upload the longer version. Here it is:

I apologize for the erratic movement. I know it will drive you crazy, but I was trying to grab quick footage of each camera of different subjects. I can't post it all, and the quick cuts make it work.

Make sure to watch it on the vimeo site at full size. The damn vimeo conversion is actually smoothing the noise, but best I can do...

Sony till 1:14
G10 till 2:53
XA10 till end at 3:49

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

DEFINITELY need to set the AE shift (or EV shift, I think they changed the nomenclature with the CX700) to the negative side on the Sony - if anything it just looked "washed out". One of the challenges of comparing cameras is you have limited time to twiddle with the settings to optimize. Unless you are already familiar with the "quirks" of a given brand or design team within a brand, or have the time to learn the adjustments for best quality, you likely won't get an accurate impression with a "quick look".

Pretty much anyone who has shot Sony will say to use AE/EV shift to back the cameras "default" exposure off from "overexposed". Not sure why that is, but in most situations, it's a "rule". The advantage of "shift" is that the camera still rides the "auto" exposure, just with a less agressive brightness profile.

To me the Canons had the typical "pushed" reds, the blacks were crushed, making the image appear to be more "pop-y", detailed and "sharp". On casual perusal, the Canons looked "better", but I suspect the above adjustment to exposure would quickly level the playing field, and you might find the Sony has better overall lattitude (range between the brightest areas resolved and the darkest). You'll also find Sonys tend to handle blues and greens sort of the way Canon handles reds...

Just some observations that have held true over time, and apparently continue to do so with the current generation cameras, based on your test footage.

In the end, all the current cameras are probably going to get you a very nice usable HD image to work with, with perhaps a little learning curve and some tweaking.

One other thing you may want to consider is that the Sonys do 60 P, and in that mode are recording at 28MBps max bitrate - you may NOT have had the cameras set for max bitrates, and that can make a HUGE difference in sharpness - made THAT mistake myself when testing, and thought the camera looked "soft" only to check and find it was at a LOW bitrate - crank it up to "max", and things come back into "focus"! 60p mode is typically razor sharp and you can freeze frames with excellent results (or do slo-mo). Worth looking at, IMO, especially since somehow that Sony footage looks soft compared to my Sonys... something seems "off" to me, and if the bitrate/resolution isn't set right, that'll do it!

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

I think the XA10 is your better choice at the moment. It has a lot more image adjustments than the consumer Sony's which can be made to perform too but maybe not in as logical form. Canon have menu controls for sharpness, contrast etc etc. so the crushed look can be changed I think. I agree with Dave on the video test you shot. I expect the cameras were set up very differently with the Sony definitely over exposing. With AE shift on it would be more natural and the lens ramping not as obvious. I run my CX700 all the time at 60P for the reasons Dave mentioned.

It's a pity you can't wait because I think the new Panasonic AG-AC90 would be a good fit for you.

Ron Evans

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

From what i heard so far (info coming from Barry Green) I think the AG-AC90 will be a much better choice then the xa10, the xa10 is still a handicam while the ag-ac90 has a much better formfactor and from what I hear it's not that more expensive.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

I just wanted to give a quick update...

I end up getting the Canon G10 for this shoot AND I couldn't help myself as I walked out of the store and I also got a Panasonic GH2 (pseudo) DSLR.

Crazy I know, but I figured I could play with the GH2 and not use if for critical footage.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, especially Noa for sending me footage and Jeff Harper for recommending the Canon. I figured the Canon would be safer for this shoot, and they offered to exchange the Canon for the Sony if I didn't like it (but not the other way around).

ANY last minute tips on the G10 and the GH2 would be great. Working to learn them now. Only issue so far is that I can't seem to get the audio meters to show on the G10.

After the even is over I will also update how they worked.

Thanks,

LB

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

:-D Just go out and shoot as much as you can and see what the result is, if you encounter weird things then I"d ask here. Think you made a very good choice, have fun testing.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

I have the Canon XA10 and love it. I use it at weddings. The touch screen is a bit to get use to but it is great in low light and the picture is as good as cameras at twice the cost. I wish it was a little bigger. Best of luck!

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

So what is your conclusion, James? How does the G10 compare to your VX2000?
I've read that even with an XA10 you need to go into the menu to monitor the audio with headphones. I could never live with that. I have a Canon HV20 and it's a little toy compared to my VX2000, tho it does shoot beautiful images. Right now i'm looking at the new JVC HM600 ro replace my VX2000.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Does anybody know what happened to James? Did he ever give an update?

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

You can click on his name and it will link you to his posts, Dale.

Re: Remember the VX2000 :-) Need help moving on...
 

Sorry I'm a little late on this one, but I've been on a very well earned holiday :)

We have the HF-G10 as our little 'ninja-cam' and if you're looking for a great little camera that's good with automatics then this is quite a good choice. I'd definitely look at the replacement models though because there are some things that really annoy me on this one (I like to shoot manually most of the time) and the newer models shoot 50p/60p as well (G10 is only 24/25/30).

The zoom rocker on the G10 and XA10 is on the top and goes side to side whereas the XA-20 & XA-25 are more the normal back to front style.

The G10 hot shoe is proprietary so you need an adapter if you want to add addition accessories, such as lights or a wireless receiver. On the XA versions you get a standard shoe on the handle.

I'm really not a fan of the touch screen, even though touch focusing is nice, I rarely use it. The face detection works very well and this is typically my go-to camera for walking shots of bride & father approaching the church (with me walking backwards) because the stabilisation works pretty well (depending on how you hold it ;)).

Making manual adjustments to settings is fiddly and takes longer than cameras with more buttons (like our XF100s). The XA-20 looks like it may be better for this but I won't get a chance to play with one until BVE London in Feb.

In terms of gain, I'd certainly not worry about anything up to 9db, but 15db is about the limit for me in normal circumstances. I've used much higher (20+) when the content was more important than the look. It's actually cleaner at high db than the XF100 - until you start to look closely and then you see why - the built in NR has smeared much of the detail and it's gone! This seems to kick in around 18db.

I've also noticed it over saturates things compared to all my other cameras, so usually we'll apply a -20 saturation before anything else. Some people love the saturated look, so if that's the case you're set to go.

If I had my time again I'd probably go for the XA range over the HF-G range simply for the handle and XLR inputs, but if you have audio covered elsewhere then there's no need.