Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I just find it funny that people can quickly jump to conclusions and say that an edit is non-profitable and unworthy without even gathering half of the information...

1) What is the desired result that the editor is trying to achieve?
2) How much is he getting paid for the edit?
3) How much content is there?
4) What kind of content is it?
5) What tools is he using?

Without knowing these elements, there is no way you can tell if an editor is fast or slow, and if he's getting overpaid or underpaid.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Well, OP gave a good breakdown which rang alarm bells for me. "Color Grading: 8hrs" for a 15min film is out of the ballpark. I've colorgraded for years, mainly in simple Premiere filters, but lately more custom work with Colorista II and Looks so I know how long it should take a competent editor. Not a fast one, nor a ultra-experienced one. Just a competent one.

1 hour maximum is all it should take.

Stephen Hawkins, blindfolded, high on crack, and editing with his nose would only take 2hrs.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I'm not able to remember my own phone number, or my girlfriend's birthday - but I never forget a picture - I seem to have (after all those years of editing) a very good brain for visual stuff.

So while shooting, it almost does an automatic rough edit (I n´know it sounds strange).
I try to edit as soon as possible after the shooting, while it is still fresh.
I dump all my cards to my Raid, and scrub through the clips. As soon as I see the part I want (i.e. remember it from shooting) I "in-out" it and throw it at the timeline. Rough cut done.
Than I look for music and pace my cut accordingly - some rearranging and fine tuning and that's picture lock.
Slap some titles on it and do the grading - done.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I think I have said enough that is obviously falling on deaf ears so here is some even better advice.

Take as long as you like to get your edit absolutely perfect ... if guys want to spend 60 hours on an edit then shucks it's your time!! Thr OP was simply asking if his times were normal or not ...obviously normal for some is not normal for others.

Like Frank I also 'edit in my head' mainly because like people such as Don Bloom and that era we are used to shooting-to-edit so we actually have very efficient and compact raw footage then is almost ready to edit and doesn't have any bad, wobbly or out of focus shots in it. In the days on linear editing you just had to shoot that way.

Chris

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Color grading for this one took way more than it usually takes since it was 6:30 wedding ceremony and has no proper lighting. had to do a lot of second grading with mask tracking and keying. I also gave it a shot to Resolve 9 this time and try to grade with it for the half of the footages. Since node based grading is the new thing for me that cost me lots of trial and error. I'm not sure RAW shooting will be get popular in wedding industry but I think it's another area that you can separate from the peers to get ahead.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you direct the second shooter ( or other shooters) to get the footage you have in your mind so that you don't have to go through all the footages from them?

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I don't believe in that, raw is ok in controlled shoots with a script, if I had to shoot raw that would result in 1 to 2 terabyte on footage alone and then starts the cumbersome workflow. A BMC camera is not something you would like to use at a wedding to shoot Raw with, prores maybe but even then it's not the type of camera to cover these type of run and gun events.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Hey John,

A practice I've seen some companies do is to:

1) Pay a little extra to your shooters and to have them rough cut their own footage and prepare a clean timeline for you. This can sometimes also be beneficial for the shooter because they can review their own footage and see what mistakes they made. If they end up with a lot of bad shots that will require them to spend more time cleaning up, they will most likely learn to shoot better next time and get more things right in camera.

2) Hire a freelance or part-time editor to only work on the rough cut and sync part and give you a clean timeline so you only need to work on putting the pieces together for your film

3) Hire someone to work on the entire edit from A-Z and you only act as a director who provides feedback and revision so they can modify the piece until you are satisfied.

All of the above suggestions will obviously save you a lot of time but will obviously require some monetary investment from your end.

As for directing shooters, it can depend a lot on the skill level and trust you have for your shooters. Some of them require little to no direction and will give you very solid footage and some will require a little more guidance. It also depends on how long they have been working with you and how familiar they are with your style. But in general, if you already have a little plan or vision in your mind, it is always good to brief your team prior to the event so everyone has an idea of what they should aim for and try to achieve.

Hope this helps,

Long

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I agree with that. I don't mean to shoot the whole wedding with RAW. BMCC is not ready for that. But I think, when in Bride Prep or First meet, I can shoot with it for beauty shot, like posing her next to the window with natural light so that I can retain some highlight information. You can also get CU or ECU on Bride's face since it's resolution capabilities is just amazing. I guess 20 - 30 min footage will be good to be used in the edit.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

HI, Long Thank you for your valuable and thoughtful information. I have my colleagues working for me for edit and second shooting full time. We both edit and shoot, but we might need to outsource the edit for the simple package that just need the standard editing since I'd like to invest little bit more time to develop different styles of film for the high-end package. Thanks for your suggestion!

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I actually had a groom say to me recently that a video on the website was too sharp, showed too much.

Only time I've ever had this feedback, but there you go. I was surprised he was picky enough to even notice, but maybe other people notice without being able to articulate it.

Was watching one of Nigel's videos recently that had a beautiful diffused look to it, glow around highlights, and slightly desaturated sepia tone. Made me even more aware of the value of softness.

Edit: For what it's worth, if you look at the John Brawley blog post for the "Leah" video (one of the first sample videos released for the BMC), he notes that you can see the pores of her skin and then adds, "Sorry Leah".

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I know the one you mean but I am just the camera operator it's my wife Alice who edited & graded it. If you read her blog post the location leant itself to that oldie worldie rural look for the introduction before segueing into the more normal look on the Steadicam shot of the bride walking up the aisle with her father. That was all shot with the 5D3 or 5D2 both of which are amazingly flattering for close ups. Wedding Video and Photography Norfolk London and throughout UK

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Nigel, the shots at 02:10 and 02:18, was that the c300? and was the shot at 01:30 when they entered the church from that same camera?

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

stelios

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

This thread got me thinking a bit, I think I have an idea about the amount of time I spend on each wedding but it is still a guess. But today I read about a software that registers time and which is specifically build for freelancers that can track multiple projects the same time, calculate every step they take in a project and invoice accordingly, directly from that program.

Since there is a 21 day trial I decided to give it a try and to split up every activity I do related to a wedding and see how many hours I exactly spend on meeting with the client, writing emails, phonecalls, project preparation, editing, sound, cc and so on.

maybe interesting for some that like to keep exact track of what they do and to see how much they actually should invoice :), the software is very easy to use and runs in the background while you are editing.

Time tracking software. Mac, PC and iPhone App - OfficeTime

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

It sounds like the first debate when HDTV came out that people wouldn't want to see that much detail on their face!

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

The shots at 02:10 and 02:18 were indeed from the C300. The shot at 1:30 on the Glidecam was a 5D2. The online video is only 720p & the difference in resolution is even more noticeable in 1080p on a large screen.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Noa, it's been proven time and again that when people in business begin tracking everything associated with a deal, they are shocked at all they REALLY have invested in it. This is true in my day job, as well as anything else. An example would be when people print the DVD cover. They concern themselves, often, with time to create the image in the software. They DON'T consider the time it takes to walk to the printer, take the paper out, trim it to fit and slide it into the sleeve. Another example, no one ever even thinks about time to format their SD cards before heading out. Now both of these might be 5 minutes each, together they are 1/6 of an hour. Every business deal has numerous little steps in it, that people frequently ignore. Each must be done though in order to deliver the product.

I think what you are considering its a great idea and would be excited to see not only your results, but you initial estimation of the project, before actually tracking the time you do spend.

Good luck with it......and expect to be blown away. :-)

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

The c300 seems to be "too good" to mix with your 5D footage as the difference in quality shows, even after conversion for the internet. I actually also have problems mixing my canon 550d with my sony cx730 as the sony is sharper, colorwise they match quite ok but I need to be careful which shots to mix and when. That's why I do the church with small handicams only and do the reception with dslr's only. In that way it doesn't show.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I know there will be a difference as I undercharge for weddings, the market here doesn't allow to charge your actual hours, if I would I wouldn't get any job due to the (cheap) competition.

For weddings a lot also depends what happens throughout the day, I just finished a wedding where there where no speeches, no powerpoint presentations or games in the evening and no photoshoot and it took me 2,5 days to finish it from the moment I started with importing the footage until I had the dvd's and blu-ray disks ready and printed. (not measured by that tracking software, but I think it was about 24 hours, will know much better soon :))

But now I start with a wedding where a second shooter was present and I have 3 times more footage to go through, this one I expect to take 3 times longer to finish completely.

I have been using that software all day and I think it's great, never even thought about using something like that but I find it very valuable to see what time is actually spend on every single process, there is also a great chart representing all parts visually and I see I spend quite some time writing emails :)
I will do a few projects, large and small, so I can get a very good idea about average time spend.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

when i started filming weddings here in Spain i worked for a company that made documentary style weddings. they weren't the greatest but their clients seemed to be happy. i worked as a camera man for them. they'd send me off with a photographer to cover a wedding with my sony pd170. i wouldn't know anything about the locations, couple etc. they'd only tell me "this is going to be a 40 minute edit" or" this is a 30 minute edit". what that meant was that for a 40 minute edit i had to film no more than 45-50 mins of tape. they sent me to speak to the editor before my first wedding (i edit as well, corporate, tv clips etc) and he showed me what he was looking for. basically he would trim all the in and out points, discard a few shots that did look too good (people getting in the way etc) and as he did this he'd select the interesting shots to copy onto another timeline for his short 1-3 min summary clip. he told me he wanted me to think of the edit whilst filming, a pan is followed by a still shot, then possibly a bit of movement, ws still, cu, ms tilt, and so on. this made his edits extremely quick (1-2 hours for the 40 min edit and clip). i'm not saying it is the best way but i have used this idea ever since whilst doing my own weddings. if i'm doing a 30min docuwedding and short 4-5 min clip then i'd never film more than an hour of material. the key is to film the right material and think about the shots. will they edit together well? do i have enough still shots to link shots with movements, enough CUs, MSs, WSs etc. is it possible to film them in order? and this was just me and my camera, one lcd light and mic and no back-up camera nor any idea of the locations, lighting etc! the point is, you can make your life a lot easier when you film thinking of the edit and don't waste time filming absolutely everything.
oh, and when i started my spanish was rubbish and i didn't even understand what half the people were saying! it was never a problem though. if you know what you are doing and you are prepared ( as much as you can be), relaxed and confident, things usually work out fine!

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

As I said, I usually don't do weddings at all - just for very close friends and family.
So it's a one man show.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

This has been a very interesting exercise, like I said I always had an idea how much time I spend on the whole editing process but since I cannot actual charge my real hours for a wedding and have to adapt to my competition I never found the need of exactly checking.

I started a large wedding project where there was a second cameraman present, normally I always work alone but the bride had requests that I could only do with 2 people and since she agreed and paid for a second shooter I hired a second person.

During the legal ceremony we used 3 camera's and during the church 4, rest of the day was with 2 camera's. below a breakdown of the project.

Total hours of raw video footage: 8 hours 20 minutes
Total hours of external audio recordings: 6 hours and 30 minutes

Time spend on the project:

The long version (which ended up to be 1,5 hours long)

Prep time: 3% or 15 minutes
this is the time for importing the footage, converting of some of my audio recordings that are in MP3 into WAV
Rough edit: 29% or 6 hour 46 minutes
This is putting all the footage on the timeline and doing a rough cut of all the parts that are not good (bad cameramoves, shaky footage..) so that only the best footage remains and is cleanly cut.
This time also contains multi-camera edits, syncing up all video camera's, audio recorders and making a rough edit of all camera angles.
Fine edit: 25% or 5 hours and 40 minutes.
Here is when I finetune the edit, add music to it and start buidling each part of the day to fit a documentary style with some "cinematic" eye candy.
Sound: 15% or 3 hours 30 minutes
Color correction: 8% or 2 hours.
Designing and printing my dvdcovers and cd labels: 4% or 1 hour.
Building the dvd menu: 2% or 30 minutes

The short version (which is 7 minutes long)

Rough edit 3% or 40 minutes
This basically is choosing the images or parts from the long versions I need for the edit.
Fine edit: 12% 2 hour and 40 minutes
This means adding music to it and completing the edit, no time for audio and color correction here because that is already done in the long version and just needs some fine tuning here so I didn't bother to measure it separately.

Total time spend: 23 hours and 20 minutes.

I was very surprised it only took 23 hours because my initial thought for a project this large was around 35 to 40 hours. Note that above times do not include render or transcode times or times I spend viewing the footage on my tv (just once) to see if some mistakes are made. Render times are no loss as I do other stuff while my pc is working, only the reviewing part is actual time but not included. I edit with edius so all the edits I do is realtime and so no time is lost here.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

Well done Noa, that puts things into perspective and shows that anyone taking months to complete the DVD is either too slow and or indecisive to work commercially and make a good living from their time, or working with equipment that's not up to a commercial standard.

I've always provided a quick turn around service with delivery within two weeks, the typical amount of time couples are away on honeymoon which gives me time to review it coldly after a few days to see if it needs any further tuning or corrections. It's always amazed me that people who claim to be full time professionals are taking sometime six months or more to deliver their work. What do they do, an hour a day, or sit on it for months before deciding what to do with it?

I'd have thought that a pre-planed 15 minute cut shouldn't take much longer using your method. Preview and log the clips to be used. Then sequence those clips, lay down the soundtrack. Any image tweaking and grading would then need only be applied to those clips and audio tweaking the same. Where does a six month, or even a three month completion time come from?

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I don't think some work months on one project, they just take on so many weddings during the year (like every friday and saturday) they end up with a backlog in edit (since they can't finish a wedding every week). The longer the wedding season lasts, the larger the backlog becomes. I have a backlog of 2 months now which is about the max it has been the past years.

I think if your backlog is 6 months then we're mainly talking about wedding videographers that have to edit all through the winter when almost no-one gets married to clear that so they can start with a clean slate when the season takes off again. But I can imagine clients don't like this approach. It might also be videographers that have a second main job.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

You may well be right there Noa as I think that many who shoot weddings also hold down a full time job so can only edit during the evenings or days off. As for shooting two a week, if that is a regular and consistent situation I'd be inclined to employ or buddy up with someone to do do the editing as the income from that number of weddings should surely cover the cost. Though even with two a week, and some times three a weeks in the past I've still managed to get work completed by efficient time management and a lot of 'lost' nights. I just couldn't bear the thought of stockpiling work for months before I got round to working on it, the footage would be so mixed in my mind not remembering what happened at which wedding, by doing it in the week after the wedding it is still fresh in my mind and I don't have to keep reviewing. Also I like to get finished to collect the final payment as I couldn't expect to have been paid and then tell couples to wait until it suits me before they could have their DVD, the lure of the money is a great incentive to get on with it.

This last year I have only shot one a week, not every week but have also managed to shoot and edit an average of two industrial induction videos a week (38 in all so far) and fit in a number of stage shows, edit and duplicate and deliver the discs, just a matter of time management. I can then take a couple of months off during the winter to establish my new venture for next year without a single thought about weddings.

Re: Editing Hour for 15min Wedding Film
 

I have been doing wedding videos for about 4 years now, and when I edit a 90 minute video it takes about 15-20 hours. If I want a 15-20 minute highlight "cinematic" clip I extract the good from the full 90 min video. Only takes about an hour at the most. My web clips are a little faster. Feel free to see them at Saturn Entertainment Studios Wedding Videography & Commercial Video Production Services. I edit on an AVID. In case anyone was wondering...