Getting contracts signed
 

This has been discussed before but I'd like to know what folks are currently doing regarding getting your contracts signed - currently I'm sending out 2 signed copies and a pre-paid envelope so one can be returned to me - not expensive or much hassle but an electronic version of this would be more elegant but docusign @ $15/month seems a little pricey for maybe only 30-40 contracts/year

Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

For the last year I've used DocuSign and enjoyed it, but it wasn't at $15/month (and it's only that cheap if you pay the full $180 up front).

Right now, I'm working on a signable PDF I can email, and just skip DocuSign all together. Not having to handle any paper is wonderful and I don't want to go back.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Im sending but struggling to get them back??? They will not send them but only a few are commiting to the contracts. Anyone give us a shout without frightening them of to get them back...

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Hi Pete

I do mine in person when I meet the bride and groom ... that way I know the wedding is booked 100% .. in the very few cases where they ask to think about it (probably less than 1%) I leave them the contract and rarely get it back!! Those are my "no sales" people and are written off.

I occasionally do some overseas people (I have a lady from Paris getting married here in December) and with those I simply create a PDF using CutePDF and they scan the signed copy and email the scan back to me.

Chris

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Steve?

Very simple ..a quick email to tell them that their wedding date remains unbooked and available to other brides until the signed contract is returned. This confirms the wedding booking.

Chris

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

To be honest I think a contract scares some of them off - when you mention 'we need to sign a contract' sometimes you can see a 'look' exchanged between the couple!

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I never called it a 'contract' always an 'agreement', that sounds much friendlier but all of my contract terms and conditions were printed on the reverse.
I always found an email stating that the date was still available to others swiftly brought the form back.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

You don't need a signed contract. We have taken to just sending them the T&Cs & taking payment of the booking fee as acceptance of those T&Cs. As long as there is an email audit trail there is no problem. I should qualify that by saying we are in the UK which is far less litigious than the US.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Nigel what a great idea - nice and simple :)

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

If you advertise on Wedding Wire they have a service that allows people to sign the contract online with their mouse. That's what I've been using and enjoy the ease of use.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Thanks Chris, Nigel and Pete, just done my new terms and conditions...

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I don't know if it’s different in the sates but I created my own contract based around a sample one I found online. I looked long and hard at the terms and conditions and altered where necessary.

This 'contract' is actually my booking form. Page one has all the wedding details page 2 has the packages I offer with the price agreed and page three is all the terms and conditions which the couple have to sign and return this along with their security deposit to fully secure the date. I have my booking form/contract on my site as a PDF for download or I send it via email.

No problems... nice and easy and my couples seem very happy with it. Then can make a copy for there own records and everyone is happy.

Again I'm in Europe so I don't know if you've got more legal issues to deal with in the US

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I don't meet many of my clients before they book. I've had a PDF Booking Form and Contract online for the past 10 years :- )

http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/docs/w...htonlamont.pdf

They download it no problem. Then they can either post it back or scan and email back the 1st and last pages (the data + the signatures). I countersign it and email them a PDF copy. Job done.

It is very easy to create PDFs in any number of programs. I use Open Office which is the free alternative to MS Office.

Its seldom if ever a problem getting the contract back. I would be very dubious about shooting without having received a signed contract though I have done it occasionally for example this weekend where the booking was only a day before D-Day. In that case i refer them to the online contract and make it clear in the email that all terms and conditions apply unless agreed otherwise in writing.

Most clients now pay their deposits and balances by internet bank transfer. That is usually instantaneous and far cheaper than my card agency or Paypal or cheques etc.

The main thing is to get the deposit - which should actually be called the retainer - the paperwork can follow.

Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Peter i have open office can you direct me to a pdf tutorial sounds good. Steve













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Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I love renaming the contract to terms & conditions / agreement.

Sounds so much more re-assuring. There is something about 'contract' that sounds a bit harsh !!! don't know why. Doesn't have a lovely ring to it.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Steve, when you have a document open in Open Office simple go to File > Export As PDF

Adjust the options if you wish. I have JPEG Compression set to 90%, then under the General section of the General Tab tick Create PDF form (Submit Format PDF). Thats it, save it to an appropriate location.

I do this with lots of documents so that they can be viewed on my smartphone (galaxy S3) and Ipad 3 as well as being usable to clients.

Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Thanks Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I would advise everyone to use a contract. Forget what you call it, your clients aren't stupid they know what it is.

The other part is that it makes no sense to use a contract that's not legally binding or will not hold up in court anyway.

Peter your contract is way too long and probably wouldn't hold up in court for that reason alone. I've bought houses with less paperwork.

A contract also has to be of mutual benefit to both parties. you can not have a contract that favors you alone.

I had a client that signed the contract and didn't make their final payment on time which w is 2 weeks before the wedding. The bride called me the day before the wedding and assured me she would have the balance shortly after the wedding. About 6 weeks later she made the final payment. What that meant to her was that her wedding would be delivered in six weeks since we had in the contract a 12 week delivery schedule. I informed her she would be put back into the rotation starting on the date she made the last payment. Got a threatening call from the husband who proceeded to play Philadelphia lawyer with me. That didn't work.so I got a letter from a real lawyer. In the interim I get a call from the producers of the "Judge Judy " Tv show. The couple had made arrangements to play their case out on TV. I called their lawyer and asked if this is really what they want to do. I assured him that my contract was fair and iron clad. And he replied what contract? He said his clients told him there was no contract. I emailed him a copy of the signed contract. Case closed.
The bride was actually a sweetheart. Her husband was a jerk. I finished the wedding on my schedule and everybody was happy again.

I no longer do weddings but if I could find an old copy of the contract i will post it.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Wow ... sounds like an absolute horror story.

I understand where your coming from ... but re-wording it during communications may make the difference of getting a booking and not getting a booking ... that's what we are discussing here.

i.e. saying can you sign a mutual agreement form just so both of us know what we expect of each other.

Rather than saying I need you to sign a contract.

The latter just sounds better and less threatening.

No body likes contracts ... be it the gym, or mobile phones!

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

contract is way too long and probably wouldn't hold up in court for that reason alone

That is based on what exactly Al ??? Which clauses would you leave out and prefer to take a chance on? A contract CANNOT be too long, it can only be "guilty" of being obtuse in a deliberate attempt to gain an advantage over one party. Since my contract is always online and it is perfectly clear to the clients that a contract is required they have all the time and opportunity in the world to raise queries before committing themselves. And they get a countersigned copy - which I now supply by PDF attached to an email so they cannot lose it. And a cooling off period.

In the UK minor commercial business to consumer disputes are dealt with by the small claims court. That has a more common sense approach than the confrontational nature of higher court proceedings. In effect an adjudicator listens to both sides, asks questions, and rules. Both parties are obliged to accept the ruling.

The idea expressed by some members that they don't like the idea of a contract because it is a contract is worrisome. Bite the bullet before you get taken to the cleaners - there are some evil people out there. Peter T's recent post about a client trying to get a full refund after she had had delivery and the opportunity to copy the disc (which she had already said she liked) is a surprisingly common scenario as reported on private photo forums.

Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

It's far too long Peter... and too legal. Would certainly put me off.

ie: You have put....

"Any alterations to orders must be notified either by phone or email and confirmed in writing (sent by
Royal Mail special delivery) within three working days of the order being placed. The photographer(s)
videographer(s) will not be held liable for any costs incurred due to alterations to the order made by the
client after this time."

I put....

"It is the client’s sole responsibility to inform the producer of any specific needs or changes in events."

And you've included stuff like....

"Peter Riding / Ashton Lamont may store your data on a private internal database. This data
will not be made available to outside companies or individuals. Should you wish to have your data
removed from the database, please advise in writing and retain your confirmation."

I mean, what bride is even worried about that? She's trying to choose between pink flowers and red flowers, not read through a law assignment.

My contract is 1/2 page, covers all the basic points in plain english - no lingo. Works for me.

But if your one is working for you, all good. At least you are covered. But your competition may appear 'less complicated' and therefore easier to book with.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

James,
I understand what you mean about the tone of the word. But let me make it clear, I never in 15 years of doing weddings had a client that barked at a contract. As a matter of fact they expected one. A good honest, clear and concise contract makes things better for both parties. I'm shocked that you guy s could even imagine losing a booking over signing a contract.
Al

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

This is an older one I found from 2002. If I find a later version I will upload it. There were 2 modifications made to this document in later versions and one of them regarding turnaround time saved my butt.

In the edit section I had added a 12 week turnaround time.

And at the very bottom I had replaced the Client has read etc .. line with : Do not sign unless all of your questions have been answered and you fully understand this document

My lawyer advised me to use the term Performance fee.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Hi Guys

I too have never had a bride question a contract but, like John, mine is a simple one and uses the terminology "terms and conditions" rather than "contract" .. the only thing I did change quite a few years back was a simple clause giving me full editorial control otherwise "changes" can go on for ever. I simply specify payment conditions, non refundable deposits and my limitation of liability. In practice it is well spaced so takes up 3/4 page but the text itself could easily take up less than 1/2 page ... the bride simply signs the bottom and dates it agreeing to my terms and conditions.

I don't think I have ever had anyone question a clause ... I just go thru the clauses and ask them to sign and they do. It probably could easily be torn to pieces by a smart lawyer with lots of legal mumbo jumbo but it's highly unlikely that legal companies would even take on a case where the bride has refused to pay her final $300 on time ...it just isn't worth their while and for pretty amounts I doubt whether the bride or hubby would bother either ... it must be fairly good as I did a B&G a few years ago where he was an already practicing lawyer and she was training to be one ..they had a quick skim thru the wording and signed it!!

Chris

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Come on chaps do you really think that clients choose you based on your contract (unless of course you have silly stuff in it blatantly disadvantaging them).

The paperwork is the last thing they look at. What really matters is your website, your samples, what you offer, your price, your meeting (if applicable). Once they are satisfied they do the chore of completing the paperwork.

I too have had very many lawyers, accountants, management consultants etc over the years and none has ever queried my contract. Although that may be because they think they can circumvent it should they need arise I do doubt that; it is based on the recommendations of UK trade bodies and modified to take in the real world experience of colleagues who have had litigious clients.

John K, e.g. in the UK you have to put in the stuff about data, there is no choice. You are also wide open to clients coming back at any time in the future - even years later - demanding changes or re-edits. If you like to live dangerously thats your choice :- )

10+ years of high volume and nil queries means contracts are not the stumbling block many on here imagine them to be.

Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

If i may butt into the conversation, here where i am in Liverpool they laugh at me when i say have you signed the terms, contract whatever you call it!! Only a few sign. What do i do? do i cancel them? no, i make sure i get paid 30 days before and then i ring them twice before the event and tell them excactly whats happening and fine tune all details... Yes im leaving myself open but touch wood not many complaints and if they come back with anything i try fix it. If they try it on i offer them a freebie, if they really try it on i tell them my terms and conditions are on line, they then back down.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Interesting Al - What do you call 'Performance Fee'? A nice, short (and not scary) contract though

Pete

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

The USA is far different from England, AUS, NZ Canada, Europe and any other county when it comes to legalities.
Far be it from me to say that doing any work without a contract (I HATE that word-I call mine a Service Agreement but that's me on advice from counsel) is a mind bending No-No but around HERE it is. People not only expect it in many cases they demand it. I have NEVER had a B&G question WHY I'm using an SA. They might question something written in it but never the fact that I am using it. Why? It protects both of us. Sure it protects me more BUT it spells out what they are paying for, what they should expect to get, when they should expect to get it, what will and won't be re-edited, what the charge would be for that, how I have the right to pack it in should I feel I am in danger, what happens in case of an act of God (see: Moore OK this week as an example) everything that could possibly go wrong and a contingency for that is covered in my T&C. I spent many hours over a number of years and a bunch of money with my lawyer fine lining my Service Agreement so SHOULD someone want to try to sue me, well their chances are slim and none and Slim is leaving town. I run a business, and for 30 years I have provided a service and product and just like I have never bought a house or a car without paperwork I wouldn't do a job without it either.
My SA for weddings is 4 pages. Page 1 has the information about the B&G. Page 2 has the information about the ceremony and reception like addresses, times etc, things that over the years I feel are important to me to know. Page 3 is additional information, like who the photog is, the DJ (band) and any other specialty information I feel I need to know to make my job a little easier and Page 4 is the T&C. They initial all pages and sign the last and I have never been questioned about it the length of it nor the use.
Perhaps in other parts of the world or even this country one can do business with a handshake but I learned a long time ago, while you're shaking one hand the client is probably reaching around to stab you in the back with the other hand.
I just can't bring myself to not protect myself and the client by not using the proper paperwork.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

https://www.echosign.adobe.com

Echosign allows 5 contracts per month at no cost, 10 if you integrate a twitter account. This sounds like it might work for you as an alternative to docusign.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I use shootq - it includes a facility for an electronic contract. It's a complete client management system - from initial inquiry to final payment - I couldn't do without it. In the US it includes payment via paypal and other online systems - no good to me but I've worked out a way around that.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Peter,
I guess I shouldn't say that your contract won't hold up in court. I do know that mine was put before a customers lawyer and they folded, so I take that to mean it would pass the scrutiny of the courts. The difference being mine is short and concise and serves the same purpose. It just begs the question "what are you attempting to do" with so much language?

If you look at my contract and my other post regarding the 2 lines that were added, myself and my client are covered in a 1/4 page. The clients complete package, booking and contract is on 1 page. That being the same document where their signature resides. That way it's clear that no changes were made after they signed.

On another note we have always had small claims court in the U. S. as well.

I think we agree, everybody should use a contract. It's a benefit to you and your customer.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

I don't think that anyone who has posted on this thread is not using a contract. We all are whether we call it a contract, a service agreement, booking conditions or whatever. As long as it's agreed by both parties then it's a contract. If you feel happier in your jurisdiction with a signed piece of paper that's fine but I know that here in the UK that an email audit trail is just as valid to prove a binding contract with all the necessary components of a contract i.e. an offer, an acceptance, a consideration & the creation of a mutual obligation.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Actually Nigel,
The thread had nothing to do with who uses a contract.

The OP only wanted to know how are you getting them signed?

The thread unfortunately turned in this direction. But obviously there are some who are uncomfortable with using a contract as if it would have an effect on booking the job. I just can't see that.

In this particular arena the U.S. is no more litigious than anywhere else.

Re: Getting contracts signed
 

Actually Pete,
It's been so long I forgot the exact reason. But I know the lawyer said "performance fee had a better chance of holding up in court.

I think it has to do with the fact that it's a :
Executory contract
A contract in which all or a portion of the promised contained therein have not yet been performed.

As I said, I'm not certain though. It's been a long time