DV Info Net

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   Wedding / Event Videography Techniques (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/)
-   -   How to tell Clients that we are in Control (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/517412-how-tell-clients-we-control.html)

Tariq Peter June 27th, 2013 07:24 AM

How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
I have filmed a wedding video and the client is asking to come round and look through the footage and choose what he wants adding. I am about to reply to his email and thinking whats the best way to reply without sounding to rude.

So far I have wrote

I'll have a look at these changes and see what I can do. In terms or looking at the footage and adding in what you would like this is not a service that I offer. As cinematographers we are paid to film a wedding and present it in our individual style this editing entails choosing different shots, music, and other elements to tell a story. It's standard practice that I am granted full production and editorial control regarding all aspects of this production and postproduction and I shoot my videos with this in mind. You may be used to a more documentary style video where a lot more of the family are in the video but that is not my style. The movie is focused primarily around the bride and groom.

I was wondering if anybody could share any thoughts.

Thank you

James Manford June 27th, 2013 07:41 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Did he sign a contract that stated you have full editorial rights?

If it's a yes.

Then your pretty much covered legally. In terms of sounding rude, I don't think your email does sound rude at all ...

Was this an Asian or Western wedding?

Robert Benda June 27th, 2013 07:56 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
"Can I come and look though the footage and choose what is to be included?"

"No."

We talk, in advance, to let folks know we'll ask about a few things (mostly whether we should include the entire ceremony, or if there is anything they want left out); and will offer the question: 'Is there anything you are most looking forward to seeing?'

After that, it's up to us. I haven't had someone ask like you have yet, but feel a simple, firm no would go a long way, depending on if they're being pushy, or just asking out of curiousity.

Tariq Peter June 27th, 2013 08:06 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
It was an Asian Wedding,

Contract says the following;

Re-edits

Technical errors will be corrected free of charge. Client-requested changes to their video will be charged at the prevailing daily edit rate. We will supply you with a preliminary edit for you to check before the final copy/copies are made. A charge will be made to correct any errors reported after the final copy is supplied.

Delivery of Product


Video Editing, Production and Distribution

We reserve the right to edit and produce the video(s) using any software , technique and creative ideas. All final creative control resides with us. Any, all or none of the videos created in this engagement may be used and published by us in future marketing endeavours.

Noa Put June 27th, 2013 08:09 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
I have had this type of questions before, once with a Indian wedding and once at a Serbian wedding. First time it didn't come up at our first meeting but they requested it after the wedding. I told them it was ok for them to sit by my side in my "office" but I asked a extra price about half of what they paid for the weddingvideo. They where shocked that I was asking a premium for this and while I said to them it was never agreed upon or even talked about when we met they thought it was considered normal, I thought "maybe where you live but not where I come from" :) so I had some discussion but eventually I didn't have to do it.

Just ask standard hour rate what you would charge a company for all the extra work you have to put into it and once they see what it will cost you won't have to do it or you"ll be making some nice extra pocketmoney.

Chris Harding June 27th, 2013 08:10 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Hi Tariq

I think we have been thru this before... put a clause in your contract that gives you total editorial control ..end of story ... no "proof" disks to "see if you like it" and no changes unless it's your fault or unless they are prepared to pay you by the hour ..I have had this (a long time ago) and the bride was with me for 3 days (full days!) and didn't pay me a cent .... Just simply don't fall for this !!

I have never lost a client over this clause and if someone did contest it before booking, I just wouldn't book them.

I would assume this would have been an ethnic wedding (only guessing of course) but more often than not what the couple want and what the parents accept are vastly different.

I would still insist on full editorial control otherwise you will never satisfy them..just be tough!!

Chris

James Manford June 27th, 2013 08:15 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
There are threads in this forum banging on about what a nightmare certain traditional Asian clients can be. (not all! I have had good experiences too).

Most just disregard of all contracts / paperwork like it means nothing !

I think your email is good enough.

What scenes are they specifically asking for? the best you can do is emphasize on the fact you concentrate on the couple and vaguely cover the guests so don't actually have the scenes they are asking for i.e. if it's a shot of a distant relative that made a 400 mile trip to attend the wedding that he wants etc.

Just tell them you don't have those scenes. You've used the best scenes that you captured.

If i'm being blunt. You seriously need to take out the bit where you state you will allow them to make changes ... this is why your getting harassed after the film has been made.

Even if you were the most professional, nicest fellow ... but had that in your contract. I would be tempted after receiving my film to nitpick and ask for more, or see what other bits you have so I can add it in.

It's human nature.

James Manford June 27th, 2013 08:21 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Personally I have allowed ONE customer to sit with me and pick scenes. A chap who owns a 5 star Indian restaurant. I made a promotional video for him to submit to a Curry Awards competition. The initial video I gave him wasn't good enough so he said he needs to come round and pick scenes.

Given the nature of the video and where it was going. I let him come round ... we spent about 6 hours going through each raw clip. In the end he replaced about 4 seconds of the final edit and was very happy.

Absolutely ridiculous if you ask me ...

Some times you just have to be blunt and not care if they get upset or end up disliking you.

Don Bloom June 27th, 2013 09:01 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
In a word...NEVER! At least not for a wedding. First it states in my service agreement they do not get the opportunity to sit with me during the edit since they have seen samples of my work, have hired me as the professional to do a similar job and thirdly (only if needed) would it be OK if I came to their job and gave them advice on how to do what they do? This last one did come up once about 5 years ago. ONCE!
Corporate clients I give them a time code version of RAW footage if needed and that pretty much has always taken care of it for them. The only time I did allow someone to sit he was the producer for a TV sports show pilot that eventually ran on a the regional of a large network.
Again for weddings, nope, nada, nine, never and no! ;-)

Long Truong June 27th, 2013 10:51 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
You could say something along the line of "I understand that you are anxious to know how your film would turn out but _______(explain what your contract says)______ "

And in the end you can add "Thank you so much for putting your trust in my artistic vision and I can't wait to show you the result as soon as it will be done. I'm sure you'll love it!"

*EDIT*: Sorry I didn't see that you have already delivered their film and they want a re-edit. In this case I think you can ask them to point out specific items they feel are missing and tell them "I'll see what I can do" but if the request doesn't make sense, you can give them a clear explanation on WHY you decided to cut certain parts out.

And instead of simply refusing to help them, you could also offer some extra service at additional cost. This way you won't come across as being rude and non-cooperative but you will make them understand that what they are asking is not part of your contract and you are open to giving them a choice to do it but not for free. It will then be their choice to decide if they want to go ahead and proceed with it and if they do, at least you will get paid for it.

You could also offer to give them an extra feature edit that only includes the "deleted scenes" for another additional cost.

The idea is to always give them a CHOICE but to always make sure that you are being compensated for everything you do.

Roger Gunkel June 27th, 2013 12:26 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Tariq, this thread worries me a little, as it suggests that the client was not clear on what you actually supply before he booked you. My contract states that the finished video will be consistent with and in the style of examples of my work seen before the booking was made. I also allow no input into the editing or selection of scenes. The only alterations I allow are to corrections to names in the credits, or removal of any offensive or embarrassing comments from guests that I may have missed in editing.

Once you allow changes and alterations you are on a slippery slope.

Roger

James Manford June 27th, 2013 01:22 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel (Post 1802224)
Tariq, this thread worries me a little, as it suggests that the client was not clear on what you actually supply before he booked you. My contract states that the finished video will be consistent with and in the style of examples of my work seen before the booking was made. I also allow no input into the editing or selection of scenes. The only alterations I allow are to corrections to names in the credits, or removal of any offensive or embarrassing comments from guests that I may have missed in editing.

Once you allow changes and alterations you are on a slippery slope.

Roger

I'm under the assumption the bride and groom didn't even book him ... a relative did. And it was a wedding gift from them!

I have had similar enquiries. A relative will call me asking how much would I charge to simply film the event for the bride and groom with no interest what so ever in regards to artistic style. Just the best price possible.

The bride and groom would then subsequently end up receiving a film that doesn't meet their expectations.

I may be completely wrong though ... i'm just assuming the scenario. We need Tariq to clarify.

The main point here is. You need to remove that dreaded clause about offering a preliminary copy for them to approve!

Josh Bass June 29th, 2013 05:00 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Pure curiosity. . .would you guys have the same attitude toward a corporate client? Or is this genre-specific?

Chris Harding June 29th, 2013 07:39 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Hi Joss

Corporate would be different as you are shooting probably to a script and segments are being previewed by the client and discussed so it's a totally different ball park!

This issue here is even more isolated as it usually only occurs with ethnic style weddings rather than standard Westernised ones so you could probably issue a "proof disk" to a western bride the same as you would do for a corporate client but it's un-advisable as it's an invitation for them to find something wrong. Corporate productions are usually very short as well not many hours of footage like a wedding

Chris

Josh Bass June 29th, 2013 07:58 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Dig. I would have taken a slightly different tack and said that in a corp video you often have all manner of political (i.e. cant offend anyone or seem insensitive toward so and so etc. ) as well as legal issues ("so and so said x in an interview and we cant be seen with our employees saying that) and so really needs some vetting and back and forth with client whether scripted or simply taping a presentation and taking out the odd bit here or there.

Chris Harding June 30th, 2013 12:23 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Hi Josh

I always redit/rough edit commercial shoots but remember we are talking about a final 10 minute promo clip there not hours and hours of social footage so there is a big difference in edit changes timewise. No bride/parents will pay you if they take up 3 days of your time nit picking the entire raw footage!!

I'm quite happy to run thru a promo with a client and pick out the good stuff ... seldom more than an hour or so and I include that in the cost too!

Chris

Warren Kawamoto June 30th, 2013 11:57 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
My opinion differs from the previous posts. Think about the client for a moment. They are paying you big bucks for a product. They receive their product, but aren't totally happy with it. They see things that could make it better to their satisfaction. As a producer, I would make their requested changes for free, regardless of if I had a contract or not. I want to show them that I care about their satisfaction, that I can produce consistent, high quality products EVERY TIME that they will be happy with for the rest of their lives. I never shut the door on a client. Their happiness and satisfaction paves the way to non-stop word of mouth referrals if you show that you're willing to put them first, ahead of yourself. When I work with clients, my customers are ALWAYS right.

James Manford June 30th, 2013 12:56 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Warren

Are you running a business doing weddings or do you do it as a hobby / extra income?

If it's a hobby / extra income, then you can always put the customer first offering free re-edits.

But if your trying to run a business and weddings are your only source of money. It simply isn't feasible to make changes or bend over backwards on re-edits.

Editing is a hard, strenuous process that requires a lot of enthusiasm and creativity. If you've used up the best clips that you captured and now you keep coming back to this project to make changes as the client isn't happy. It will simply eat in to your time and energy which can be spent on the next wedding that you've just covered.

Noa Put June 30th, 2013 12:57 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

They are paying you big bucks for a product.

If you charging several thousands of dollars/euro's then I"d say yes, you have this covered in your price but many of us here, including me don't charge our actually hourrate which we would charge for a company and in such a case any re-edit comes at a cost. I tell my clients upfront now, especially if it's a wedding from another culture so they can't come and complain afterwards. If they expect this when we first meet I just tell them what it costs extra to re-edit and if they don't like that they can go shop somewhere else. They might be unhappy then but that is not the type of client I"m looking for.

Noa Put June 30th, 2013 01:03 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by James Manford (Post 1802559)
It will simply eat in to your time and energy which can be spent on the next wedding that you've just covered.

Imagine every client you deliver to comes back and says "redo it", if your only goal would be to keep them happy and do it for free you are not running a business.

James Manford June 30th, 2013 01:03 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Noa

I've seen some of the big companies in the UK that charge thousands of pounds clearly state in their terms & conditions that re-edits are charged at the daily rate. So even the big fish don't just re-edit for free regardless of price ...

Don Bloom June 30th, 2013 01:56 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
My wedding clients are always right also, unless they're wrong which in 99.999% of cases they are!
Not so much wrong as simply not knowing what makes a good video, or the process that goes on behind it.
For me it's simple, they saw samples or a complete wedding (sometimes 2 or 3 depending on the number of people in their ring of friends whose weddings I've done), they know what they're going to get, they know I can do re-edits at a particular rate and I've had a number of people over the years tell me that they hired me to make the kind of video they saw samples of and since they aren't professionals at it, why would they think about telling me how to edit. I've averaged 50+ weddings a years for over 20 years. If I had to re-edit even 25% of them I would never get anything done nor would I make any money. If I make a mistake in the edit like a misspelled name or something obvious, sure I'll fix it, but creative changes? Nope! Another reason I stopped doing cinematic short form edits and went back to doc style Sorry Warren, on this one we have to agree to disagree.
Corporate clients of course, as I stated earlier, are different.

Warren Kawamoto June 30th, 2013 02:53 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by James Manford (Post 1802559)
Warren
Are you running a business doing weddings or do you do it as a hobby / extra income?

I opened my own video business in 1991, and I've shot and edited over 3,500 weddings. Re-edits are very far and few between. The key is to try to get the editing right the first time. TRY TO EXCEED WHAT YOU THINK THEIR EXPECTATIONS WILL BE. That is the secret.

I never show off my lucky shots to potential clients...that raises their expectations.

Noa Put June 30th, 2013 05:12 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

I opened my own video business in 1991, and I've shot and edited over 3,500 weddings.
You did an average of over 150 weddings a year?

Roger Gunkel June 30th, 2013 06:15 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Wow 3 weddings a week for over 20 years, now that is impressive. I wouldn't have thought it physically possible to maintain that level of work and sleep and eat. So assuming 1 day to film each one, that leaves 4 days to edit 3 weddings continuously week in and week out. I am humbled by someone who can achieve that and still be alive :-).

Roger

Chris Harding June 30th, 2013 06:34 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
That's pretty hard work day in and day out!! I was slammed here for my fast weddings edits (I can normally do a doc edit of a wedding in around 10 hours) but that's normally just one or two a week and it's usually just one so 3 edits to do like Warren!! Then again maybe Warren is not working solo ..we assume these thing but doing 150 weddings a year is a piece of cake if you have a couple of people doing your edits and all you are doing is the shoot.

Are you doing this all on your own Warren?

Chris

Don Bloom June 30th, 2013 09:24 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
I've been to Warrens great state a few times...weddings there (at least according to the venue managers I talked to) are different than say on the mainland. Most are destination weddings and run half the time or less of a typical wedding on the US mainland. I talked to one video guy on Maui who typically did 4 to 5 weddings a week. He had another "crew" working for him and 2 editors in his shop that did nothing else. He could generally turn the product over in 24 to 36 hours. Remember you're talking about prep, ceremony and reception that typically runs about 2.5 to no more than 4 hours total time. I was one hotel where I saw the same video person shoot 2 weddings in one day. Also keep in mind that in Hawaii, they'll do wedding 7 days a week not just on weekends.
Different type of deal there. Yes there are the typical big blowout weddings just like on the mainland but the majority are pretty short gigs.

The place I stayed on Maui told me they typically did 600 plus weddings a year. Even if they blew up the number and it was really only 300 and only 25% got video (75) that was 1 hotel on the beach where there were about 12 BIG hotels doing the same thing. Do the math and you can understand how Warren could do the numbers.

Plus with the cost of living on the islands you need to do a whole lot of weddings to pay the bills. ;-)

Warren Kawamoto June 30th, 2013 09:33 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1802581)
You did an average of over 150 weddings a year?

That's correct. However, some of Hawaii's destination weddings on weekdays were shorter and more simple than the high end weekend ones. My packages consisted of ala carte options. Sometimes, customers wanted only SDE's of the ceremony to be shown at their reception, sometimes they wanted full coverage from beginning to end. Every wedding shot could be customized according to their budget/needs. All the work was done with only my wife and I, plus one assistant. On a busy day, the most we ever handled was 4 weddings; 2 in the morning, and 2 in the afternoon/ evening.

In my opinion, the biggest factor that made it possible to keep up with all the editing was Edius. It could edit just about any footage in real time without rendering, then spit it all back out to a master DVCAM. Up until 2005, we shot and edited everything in DVCAM, which was super fast to edit because it was SD. In 2005 we switched to HD, which bogged things down a bit. We had to wait until computer processors got fast enough to be able to cut like butter again.

Warren Kawamoto June 30th, 2013 10:10 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Bloom (Post 1802605)
Most are destination weddings and run half the time or less of a typical wedding on the US mainland. . Do the math and you can understand how Warren could do the numbers.

Don, you hit the nail on the head! Before I started my own company, I used to work for a company that did only destination wedding ceremonies. On the busiest day we ever recorded, we shot 40 weddings at 6 different locations, then edited them in mobile editing vans, in time to be delivered by the end of the day to the customer's hotel room. A salesperson would play back their wedding for them to verify everything was ok before the customer dished out their dough. I think back then (1985) a wedding ceremony video was $400.

James Manford July 1st, 2013 12:28 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Wow learning quite a lot from this thread ... had no idea how it worked in some parts of the world !

You have 2.5 hour weddings where your able to do more than one, and then you have Asian weddings that span over 4 days of a minimum of 6-7 hours EACH day for just one couple!

Interesting to say the least!

Noa Put July 1st, 2013 01:06 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
That explains a lot :) I couldn't even imagine doing 50 weddings a years without having a life, my weddings average at 14-17 working hours.

Roger Gunkel July 1st, 2013 02:51 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Noa I'm in the same sort of market as you, I think we live in the wrong part of the world :-(

Roger

Chris Harding July 1st, 2013 02:59 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Ok Guys

Off to Hawaii we go .. a little more competition for Warren but with the sunshine it's worth it ... I can imagine it's a rather pleasant location to shoot weddings?? A couple of my brides here chose it for their honeymoon. Nicer weather than the UK Roger!!

I limit my shoots to 35 a year but normally end up doing around 30 odd ...Ours can vary from budget packages (sorta 3pm to 9pm.. which I really like) or full weddings which are often mid-day to midnight but certainly nowhere near 17 hours like Noa has to do ... 12, maybe 13 hours at a push!

Chris

Don Bloom July 1st, 2013 04:57 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
I've been to Oahu, Maui and the big island of Hawai'i. Personally I loved Maui. I'd live on any of them and actually looked into it after going thru another Chicago winter having recently come back from Maui before going to the big island.
Here's the problem...MONEY! It is very expensive to live in Hawai'i and frankly the idea of starting over in a new, beautiful warm sun filled location did little for my juices plus my wife won't leave the grand children. I told her we could send them tickets. She didn't buy it. So for now we'll have to vaca there.
One can dream about it, think about it and wish for it so excuse me while I kiss the sky! ;-)

Chris Harding July 1st, 2013 08:05 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Tsk, tsk Don

You do realise that you are kissing the wrong thing to get there ...the sky???? Far better to concentrate on the wife and apart from the kissing bit maybe some loud slurping noises would be in order??

It sounds like you are not going to get out of Chicago my friend ...Grandkids are mighty powerful attractions to stay put!!

Chris

Don Bloom July 1st, 2013 10:17 AM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Chris,
I tired the kissing and slurping for years with her. No effect so I figured maybe a bit of Jimi Hendrix (hence, Kiss the Sky ((from Are you Experienced))would work.) Nothing there either. ;-)
As for leaving the grandkids there are 2 chances. Slim and none and Slim is getting on the train to get out of town.
Oh well, I guess we'll just have to keep on cruising and going to Hawai'i for vaca!

Warren Kawamoto July 1st, 2013 10:17 PM

Re: How to tell Clients that we are in Control
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding (Post 1802649)
Ok Guys

Off to Hawaii we go .. a little more competition for Warren but with the sunshine it's worth it ... I can imagine it's a rather pleasant location to shoot weddings?? A couple of my brides here chose it for their honeymoon. Nicer weather than the UK Roger!!
Chris

What nobody here knows is that my wife and I moved from Hawaii! My wife found a job in San Francisco that she could not refuse, so we packed up and left Hawaii last year! Here's the thing. I'm still booked for weddings in Hawaii till next year. I've been flying back and forth to take care of those. In San Francisco, I'm not doing any weddings as I want to have the weekends off with my wife as much as possible. I'm here in Hawaii now, having just finished a big wedding this past weekend, then flying back to California on Friday after this Thursday's wedding. I'll be back again in 3 weeks for a few days. The bookings that have been coming my way were all by word of mouth since I've not advertised in the past 2 years. Does anyone have anything for me to do in the San Francisco Bay area? I would love to keep busy on a part time basis.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:32 PM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network