Client not happy with music limitations at DVinfo.net

Clive McLaughlin · September 30th, 2013, 07:30 AM

I've never had an issue to date with a potential booking on the basis of music … until now.

Normally once I explain the law, the couple says its ok. This latest potential client sounds like it may be a sticking point though!

Does anyone else ever have bother with this? Does anyone let the rare one slide through and take the risk?

I've told her that I can do it with her song choice, but I can't upload it. I told her I can send it to her and she can upload it without mentioning my company name. I've also added a fee for this option due to my losing out of potential publicity.

Good idea/bad idea?

Robert Benda · September 30th, 2013, 08:43 AM

I've done on site music in the videos for full length, but never for anything I would, or think they would post online. That means, of the three videos I can make (full length all-day is optional), both the highlight reel and wedding film (about 20 minutes) are sound tracked and NEVER have copyrighted music.

That's because I assume those are the two they'd want or be willing to put online. The full length, at 45-90 minutes, I don't worry about since it's likely to stay on the DVD.

Jeff Harper · September 30th, 2013, 03:13 PM

Added a fee due to lost publicity? Where did that come from? I would never pay that kind of fee, it sounds made up. Put yourself in the bride's place and rethink it from her point of view.

Dave Partington · September 30th, 2013, 03:22 PM

Clive,

Check out PRS, it may not be as expensive as you think....

Performing Right Online Licences

I assume you don't think you will get more than 45,000 plays (where music is the focus) or 3,500 hours of play time (where music was not the focus).

Steven Davis · September 30th, 2013, 05:25 PM

While we're sort of on the subject, could some one list some links where you can purchase music with vocals and such. I can find music without vocals, but I've seen some amazing music used with vocals, but I don't know where they are getting it from. Thanks in advance.

James Manford · September 30th, 2013, 05:54 PM

Sick to the back of my teeth because we have to pay so much for all these songs yet people are using torrents to download illegally and millions of websites hosting pirated software, movies, games, music etc.

If anything the work we do promotes the artist! You always get people asking, that song is nice, who is it by!?

I wish there was a way to pay a one-time ownership fee for the rights to use the song for wedding work including commercial music.

I hate the fact we have to pay for a certain amount of plays and multiple licenses.

Explaining it to the bride/groom is the worst part!

Jeff Harper · September 30th, 2013, 06:03 PM

Steven, songfreedom and the music bed have an amazing selection.

Steven Davis · September 30th, 2013, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Steven, songfreedom and the music bed have an amazing selection.

Thanks Jeff.

John Knight · September 30th, 2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin

Does anyone let the rare one slide through and take the risk?

Yes. .

Nigel Barker · October 1st, 2013, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Partington

Clive,

Check out PRS, it may not be as expensive as you think....

Performing Right Online Licences

I assume you don't think you will get more than 45,000 plays (where music is the focus) or 3,500 hours of play time (where music was not the focus).

Sorry to disabuse you Dave but the PROL does not permit you to use copyright music on wedding videos online. For a start there is this

Quote:

The Performing Right Online Licences covers the act of communicating music to the public when you want to use music online and have already cleared the mechanical rights (i.e. the right to copy/reproduce the track) separately.

Sadly despite the fact that here in the UK we can easily & cheaply licence music on physical products like DVD & Blu-ray there is no equivalent licence for online use.

Clive McLaughlin · October 1st, 2013, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Added a fee due to lost publicity? Where did that come from? I would never pay that kind of fee, it sounds made up. Put yourself in the bride's place and rethink it from her point of view.

I don't see the problem with this Jeff. All my short vids go on my website and on facebook. I share them, google users find them, the client's friends see them. This all directs traffic and interest to me.

If I'm doing a job, but I am unable to upload the short video in the usual way, I am simply asking that the fee reflects the disadvantage I take upon myself.

John Nantz · October 1st, 2013, 12:45 AM

As a way to deal with the licensing of music, is there a way to license it for use on the video that is supplied to the client and put a End User License Agreement on the video at the end? Say, after the credits?

The EULA could say what the video is licensed for and/or what it is not. Maybe break down the parts of the video, for example, a EULA for the video part and another one for the music part.

Commercial videos have copyright information at the beginning, something that says how illegal it is to copy the material.

I agree with a comment made about all the on-line illegal music and also with illegally produced products imported or sold abroad. These people are getting away with murder while those who try to do it right wind up getting hammered.

The US Government used to confiscate boats (i.e., yachts) and private planes that came into the US with illegal drugs, even an ounce worth. And yet, there seems to be no problem with the importation of grey market or illegal goods on container ships from abroad.

In a previous life I used to have a stereo business and I had a customer that wanted to buy a sound system for their restaurant. Trying to do it legally I contacted ASCAP, I'm pretty sure that is who it was, in San Francisco, about the ins and outs of using a system for music in this situation. The communication went south in a hurry and we wound up being threatened with a law suit and for several years afterward we would receive nasty and threatning letters. The end result of the potential sale is it didn't happen and they bought a system from somewhere else and, obviously, our relationship soured. Also lost aftermarket sales of CDs.

If you're a little guy the big guys can really overpower you with legal hammers. But that also goes for little corporations vs big corporations so we aren't alone.

Peter Rush · October 1st, 2013, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clive McLaughlin

I don't see the problem with this Jeff. All my short vids go on my website and on facebook. I share them, google users find them, the client's friends see them. This all directs traffic and interest to me.

If I'm doing a job, but I am unable to upload the short video in the usual way, I am simply asking that the fee reflects the disadvantage I take upon myself.

I turn around my edits in 8-10 weeks and include a PRS licence in the price - it's about £7 for each wedding and allows me to use copyrighted music on 5 discs. Within a week of filming I upload a 2 minute highlights clip on my blog using premiumbeat/songfreedom/music bed purchased music. It's great for SEO and gives the couple something to view while they are waiting for the final edit.

Pete

Clive McLaughlin · October 1st, 2013, 01:30 AM

Its all too confusing!

Peter, Nigel above states that the PRS licence is not sufficient.

Is he right or wrong?

You would need to hire a lawyer to explain this all! I can't find anywhere online that highlights this in black and white terms (not in the UK anyway).

I think some people on here are just content to buy something(anything), then if a law suit comes their way, they will plead naivety and say "i thought I was covered by that!", instead of fully looking into the full requirements.

Peter Rush · October 1st, 2013, 01:45 AM

Nigel is right - the PRS licence allows you to produce 5 X DVDs with copyrighted music but does not allow you to post online - If a couple wish to purchase extra discs that takes me above 5 I have to buy another licence.

I don't sweat this one - The couple get their favourite music on the wedding video and I'm more than happy with Song Freedom/Music Bed stuff for my online samples. When I visit potential customers I take my tablet for showreel samples and samples of 'actual' edits so they get to see the real thing with actual music.

It's no biggie here in the UK but It seems there is no alternative to the PRS licence in other countries. I wouldn't risk posting copyrighted music online - other posts have highlighted what can happen if you are caught.

It does make for an un-leavel playing field however as some vidographers happily post samples with copyrighted music I know of a few local competition that do so - I wouldn't risk it however.

September 30th, 2013, 07:30 AM	#1
Clive McLaughlin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Belfast Posts: 823	Client not happy with music limitations I've never had an issue to date with a potential booking on the basis of music … until now. Normally once I explain the law, the couple says its ok. This latest potential client sounds like it may be a sticking point though! Does anyone else ever have bother with this? Does anyone let the rare one slide through and take the risk? I've told her that I can do it with her song choice, but I can't upload it. I told her I can send it to her and she can upload it without mentioning my company name. I've also added a fee for this option due to my losing out of potential publicity. Good idea/bad idea?

September 30th, 2013, 08:43 AM	#2
Robert Benda Trustee Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Crookston, MN Posts: 1,353	Re: Client not happy with music limitations I've done on site music in the videos for full length, but never for anything I would, or think they would post online. That means, of the three videos I can make (full length all-day is optional), both the highlight reel and wedding film (about 20 minutes) are sound tracked and NEVER have copyrighted music. That's because I assume those are the two they'd want or be willing to put online. The full length, at 45-90 minutes, I don't worry about since it's likely to stay on the DVD.

September 30th, 2013, 03:13 PM	#3
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Client not happy with music limitations Added a fee due to lost publicity? Where did that come from? I would never pay that kind of fee, it sounds made up. Put yourself in the bride's place and rethink it from her point of view.

September 30th, 2013, 03:22 PM	#4
Dave Partington Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: York, England Posts: 1,323	Re: Client not happy with music limitations Clive, Check out PRS, it may not be as expensive as you think.... Performing Right Online Licences I assume you don't think you will get more than 45,000 plays (where music is the focus) or 3,500 hours of play time (where music was not the focus). __________________ Qualified UAV Pilot with CAA PFAW Aerial Photo / Aerial Video \| Corporate Video Production

September 30th, 2013, 05:25 PM	#5
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	Re: Client not happy with music limitations While we're sort of on the subject, could some one list some links where you can purchase music with vocals and such. I can find music without vocals, but I've seen some amazing music used with vocals, but I don't know where they are getting it from. Thanks in advance. __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

September 30th, 2013, 05:54 PM	#6
James Manford Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,393	Re: Client not happy with music limitations Sick to the back of my teeth because we have to pay so much for all these songs yet people are using torrents to download illegally and millions of websites hosting pirated software, movies, games, music etc. If anything the work we do promotes the artist! You always get people asking, that song is nice, who is it by!? I wish there was a way to pay a one-time ownership fee for the rights to use the song for wedding work including commercial music. I hate the fact we have to pay for a certain amount of plays and multiple licenses. Explaining it to the bride/groom is the worst part!

September 30th, 2013, 06:03 PM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Client not happy with music limitations Steven, songfreedom and the music bed have an amazing selection.

October 1st, 2013, 12:45 AM	#12
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,252	Re: Client not happy with music limitations As a way to deal with the licensing of music, is there a way to license it for use on the video that is supplied to the client and put a End User License Agreement on the video at the end? Say, after the credits? The EULA could say what the video is licensed for and/or what it is not. Maybe break down the parts of the video, for example, a EULA for the video part and another one for the music part. Commercial videos have copyright information at the beginning, something that says how illegal it is to copy the material. I agree with a comment made about all the on-line illegal music and also with illegally produced products imported or sold abroad. These people are getting away with murder while those who try to do it right wind up getting hammered. The US Government used to confiscate boats (i.e., yachts) and private planes that came into the US with illegal drugs, even an ounce worth. And yet, there seems to be no problem with the importation of grey market or illegal goods on container ships from abroad. In a previous life I used to have a stereo business and I had a customer that wanted to buy a sound system for their restaurant. Trying to do it legally I contacted ASCAP, I'm pretty sure that is who it was, in San Francisco, about the ins and outs of using a system for music in this situation. The communication went south in a hurry and we wound up being threatened with a law suit and for several years afterward we would receive nasty and threatning letters. The end result of the potential sale is it didn't happen and they bought a system from somewhere else and, obviously, our relationship soured. Also lost aftermarket sales of CDs. If you're a little guy the big guys can really overpower you with legal hammers. But that also goes for little corporations vs big corporations so we aren't alone.

October 1st, 2013, 01:30 AM	#14
Clive McLaughlin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Belfast Posts: 823	Re: Client not happy with music limitations Its all too confusing! Peter, Nigel above states that the PRS licence is not sufficient. Is he right or wrong? You would need to hire a lawyer to explain this all! I can't find anywhere online that highlights this in black and white terms (not in the UK anyway). I think some people on here are just content to buy something(anything), then if a law suit comes their way, they will plead naivety and say "i thought I was covered by that!", instead of fully looking into the full requirements.

October 1st, 2013, 01:45 AM	#15
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: Client not happy with music limitations Nigel is right - the PRS licence allows you to produce 5 X DVDs with copyrighted music but does not allow you to post online - If a couple wish to purchase extra discs that takes me above 5 I have to buy another licence. I don't sweat this one - The couple get their favourite music on the wedding video and I'm more than happy with Song Freedom/Music Bed stuff for my online samples. When I visit potential customers I take my tablet for showreel samples and samples of 'actual' edits so they get to see the real thing with actual music. It's no biggie here in the UK but It seems there is no alternative to the PRS licence in other countries. I wouldn't risk posting copyrighted music online - other posts have highlighted what can happen if you are caught. It does make for an un-leavel playing field however as some vidographers happily post samples with copyrighted music I know of a few local competition that do so - I wouldn't risk it however.