Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Hi Adrian,

Reading your post underlines to me how far apart in what they offer so many wedding videographers are. Not only that, but it is impossible to offer advice on second shooters when there are so many variations in methodology, equipment and end product.

Your list of requirements and shots, is probably what you normally do, but to my way of working it sounds like a blockbuster movie production. Sliders, jibs, double manned over the shoulder cameras, missing photo shoot while you are setting up loads of equipment at the reception, mannequin for the dress and lighting it after 30 mins clearing the room for slider reveal, lens flare etc. WTF! I live in a completely different world where the dress looks it's best doing what it's supposed to- looking beautiful on the bride, not hanging on a tree in an ornamental garden, or bathed in golden light to be revealed to the world.

Some companies obviously spend hours setting up equipment, preparing shots, using multiple crew members etc and some probably put all of that fabulous work on an 8 minutes glossy video. My end of the spectrum means setting up nothing for the camera, but using experience and camera technique to capture different angles and details that are unfolding in front of me thoughout the day. If the dress is chucked on the bed, that is how I will film it because that is how it was on the day. I'll make a feature of it of course, but I won't influence the wedding at all if I can avoid it. Brides may well love your 30 seconds of artistic dress shot, but they also love my capturing of the way it actually was, without stressing over what I might be doing with her valuable dress.

As for missing the photo shoot while setting up equipment, I would be more likely to be doing the photo shoot as part of a joint package, getting video and stills. I don't need to spend ages setting up mics and cameras for the speeches as I will be doing that quickly as they have their meal.

I would find the time needed to set up lots of equipment and stage manage different scenarios as much more stressful than the fast and light way I work. I would also worry about missing things that were actually important while faffing about over artistic setups.

So there are so many variations in ways that we film weddings, but no one way is right or wrong, so advice for one would be pointless and irrelevant for another in so many cases unless you know exactly how they intend to work and what they intend to end up with.

Roger

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I too shoot dual, we've done it for years. Although I'm married to my second shooter. I can say that when I do hire someone else, it's a crap shoot, sometimes they know what they are doing and sometimes they need more help.

In my area though, second shooters want to make more money than I do for my event, so it's kinda comical to watch the wage demands come in. I'm like, it's a second camera roll, I could almost train a monkey to do it.

If I could just get Noa P. to second shoot for me, then I'd be set.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

As someone who uses sliders, jibs etc I have to say its use doesn't necessarily equal blockbuster productions. They're tools to grab certain shots. Bit like setting up a light stand for an indoor photo shoot - just a means to grab better looking shots.

For me it's the Photographer who sets up the dress and I simply grab slider shots once in position. It looks a lot better properly presented than just lying on the bed. After all this dress will likely never look so good than that moment, so if the Photographer didn't consider moving it, I would.


Faffing over arty shots vs faffing over group photos. Really why should one detract from capturing the moment and not the other. Not covering photos gives me time to grab arty shots. And what is important? Ceremony, Speeches, Cake Cutting, Bouquet toss, 1st Dance - do use of sliders and jibs hinder capture of these moments. Not really. I can't say for others, but using such equipment in the right sections of the day has not caused me to miss shots and in fact has resulted in considerably better looking videos.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I'm lazy of course! You would find me dragging in sliders to a prep ..Just on handheld camera ..I let the photog set up and fluff the dress (I'm also married to her so that's her baby) She will do all the photo shots and all I will grab is the dress (just one tilt down) and the bouquets. The little bits and pieces are the photogs job but with so many photogs moving to video they are in the habit of shooting the perfume, the make up and the shoes so I guess a slider is needed otherwise they become stills ..with video I stick to the people not any static objects ..those belong to stills.

The prep is also crowded so having a 2nd shooter at prep sounds crazy to me!!!

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Chris, I'm not sure a 2nd shooter also at the Bridal Preps is what's been suggested. If I had a 2nd shooter they'd be with the Groom, not hogging valuable space with me.

As for still objects being just for photo, I'd say yes and no. Some of my couples this year have requested it, even expect it. I shoot plenty of people too of course, but shots of the dress, shoes etc have their place in my video. Using sliders just means I'm being creative with such shots and not just ticking a box. It really depends if your video places itself firmly in being a documentary, or if like mine, a documentary edit but with shots that are more.. well cinematic for lack of a better word. Using primes and sliders, shallow depth of field and the like.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Steve, I'm glad you analysed my post and disagreed with a number of my points, which is exactly why I posted what I did. It emphasises that no two videographers will work the same way, so advice about a second shooter is totally dependant on how the enquirer tends to shoot the wedding. It could be that a gofer is all that's required for a few pounds pocket money, or a skilled cinematographer at a much higher cost, or of course none at all.

Roger

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Sarcasm Mr Gunkel, I do love a nice bit of sarcasm. :)

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

(Disclaimer) The following is only my opinion. I have been wrong lots of
times before so feel free to disagree....

I think the problem is, lots of people on here want to run their business
by themselves (keeping all the profits and not hiring employees), yet they
want to have 'second shooters' for weddings when needed. There is a
fundamental problem with this approach. Yes, many people can 'make it work'.
If you live in an area with a film school, you can often find college kids or
recent graduates who are glad to work as second shooter. It's just not a
general good model for doing business. You know little about these second
shooters. When you find a good one, they are usually a short term employee
at best. You can't give them full time work, so it's hard for them to commit to you
at the level which you need. And if they are really good, they will often go into
competition with you down the road.

The way I see it, you basically need to decide what your business is going to be.
Are you going to offer multiple shooters and high end weddings? Look at the
companies that do this successfully. The businesses that do this are most often
not 1 person video companies! They are either some form of partnership or LLC
where there are 2, or 3 or 4, sometimes even 5 or more people working at that company!
So, it's not hard to gear up for multiple camera ops. Of course, they also charge accordingly,
as they may have a camera operator, focused only the bride, one on the groom, one on
the audience/family's, and sometimes a steadicam op as well. And charging what they charge,
they tend to attract only high end clients as many cannot afford them. The problem is,
many brides see their films, and want a 'steak dinner' when they have a 'fries and coke'
budget. And then some of the one person video companies try to give it to them.
You either charge what you need to charge to attract and be able to pay others to
work with/for you, or you do not give the bride multiple manned cameras at her
wedding. I would possible do a couple 'lock down' shots as a solo op, but I see
so many 'single person' wedding companies trying to do the work of a full service
company with 5 employees,......all for a $1500 wedding and I just shake my head.

People will ask for the world, it's your job to bring them back to reality.
As an example of this, a few years ago, I had a bride ask me for something
lower than my lowest priced package.
"We just need one camera recording the entire ceremony on a wide shot", she said.
"We don't have the budget for anything more, and we just want to be able to
have something to look back on."
Like a dummy I agreed to do a cheap, one camera version. And after it was done?
She refused payment until her and her husband could view the video and 'suggest
places where you could edit to another shot'. Like what? What shot am I going to
edit to when you specifically ASKED for the cheap one camera package?

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

We call that time shift video, instead of editing linear you just mix it all up, something like they did on teh film memento, the bride will have to watch her video over and over again to understand what is going on but it certainly will never bore her :D

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Gabe, I agree with some of your points, but your issues in the last case you quoted was down to the foolish decision to accept payment after delivery. In my case, all money is paid to me before the day and why; because when couples want you to turn up, they are very accommodating. After the day, its hard enough to get them to supply you with song choices, let alone payment. Its like these buy now, pay later schemes. Who wants to pay for something after you have received the goods.

Paying in order to receive something is as easy as pie, but paying for something you already have takes a good conscience. Not many are blessed with such a thing.

There's no doubt there are risks in hiring a 2nd shooter. However I see many companies offer it and yes it can lead to stress. You either accept that and the risks or not offer it at all. Simple as that.

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Gabe, I agree with just about everything in your post, although I agree with Steve that you don't leave it with them until they have paid.

Steve, no sarcasm intended, just an observation! Sometimes we have the same point of view, sometimes we differ, be boring if we always agreed on everything :-)

Roger

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Not quite. I was dumb but not THAT dumb. I didn't
make her prepay, but I certainly didn't let them do what
she was asking for! I still had possession of the video
as even back then I knew better than to turn over the
video without payment! Instead I forwarded a copy of her
email to me (where she specifically asked for one camera)
and politely reminded her of her decision, despite
being informed of the drawbacks of this approach.
I informed her that I had the 1 cam video done, it was
what it was and if she wanted it, she could submit payment
and then pick it up. Which she did.....the point wasn't that I
was 'screwed' out of money, but rather that clients can and
will make crazy requests. Like wanting 5 different camera
angles of their wedding for $1500. My point simply is
if you want to be a company that offers multiple shooters,
then you need to 'step up' your business beyond the 'one
person' company status....and charge accordingly. If you
decide not to follow this advice, well, then you have only
yourself to blame when you can't get a good 2nd shooter
to commit 18 months in advance.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

You know you can set yourself up as a dual shooter company, charge accordingly and still have stress and hassle with hiring a 2nd shooter. I've spoken to a number of freelancers and Wedding video companies and the issues are simple. You need someone competent, reliable and conscientious in their work. Someone who will turn up on time is a must, but also care enough about their work to do a good job despite it being for another business.

It sounds easy on paper but those most competent and experienced will have their own business, so you're looking at someone who is perhaps starting out, someone who has a natural talent for it but not yet established in the Wedding industry so will be happy to gain experience working for you. You can then mould them to work to your style. However how long can you keep such a person. Most will eventually want their own business at some point then you're back to square one.

The only reliable 2nd shooter is a spouse or life long friend, but the moment you resort to hiring, you have all the potential issues of working with employees.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I do think that this whole subject of a second shooter follows along the lines of what Gabe is saying.

A wedding videographer needs to decide what type of business he actually wants, as that will dictate how many shooters he needs and how much work he would need to take on. Forgetting partners for a moment, you either hire someone who is experienced and will probably require a substantial payment, or a student/beginner who will be cheap but probably unpredictable.

The business needs to be built around what the core aim is, is it going to be a multi shooter higher end business or is it a one man setup or something in between. If the requirement is to be for a permanent multi shooter setup, then the core prices and number of weddings need to be built around having a permanent and reliable crew. Anything less than that is going to be ad hoc based on who happens to be available for the wedding, with the risk of unreliability that brings. The only other reliable alternative is a competent partner/spouse who is always available.

For me, I aim to earn enough income to be able to do the things I want with my life and have the time to do them, so the solo shooter or working with wife is perfect. As soon as you start building a higher level business, then the costs increase rapidly. I long ago found that I could get excellent results for weddings using good quality consumer gear rather than spending a fortune on equipment that may well be over specified for my requirements. So for instance I have just bought to FZ1000s that are perfect for my needs and cost me £1000. I could have spent £15000 on two camera bodies and lenses, but that extra £14000 would have to come out of my profits, which would mean charging higher prices. Higher prices also applies to hiring a quality second shooter and more equipment for them to use. Then there is the cost of more upmarket promotion to put yourself in front of bigger spending clients, perhaps even premises to raise your profile.

There are many things to consider beyond just hiring an extra shooter if you are going to run a profit making business rather than an expensive hobby, and that also includes whether you need extra equipment for that cinematic look or artistic satisfaction. In my business I target what I see as the biggest sector of the market, which I enjoy filming, doesn't involve outside personnel hiring or big equipment cost and allows me to satisfy the requirements of 95% of the enquiries that I get. I also have time to enjoy life :-)

Roger

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Steve, you are still kind of missing what I am saying. You talked about
hiring someone 'starting out' and 'happy to gain experience'. This is
exactly my point. If you want to be a company that does multiple
shooters, (maybe even steadicam/3axis gimbals and so on,)
you do NOT hire someone 'starting out' or 'happy to gain experience'.
You hire someone good (and probably end up having to pay
them a lot of money, because you need to pay for talent!)
The really good wedding companies (at least the ones I've
observed in action.....say at the level of StillMotion or so) do
NOT have people 'starting out and happy with experience'
employed as camera ops. They have people who are really good.
Because they get paid really good. If you want to be a company like
that, you aren't going to get by paying your second shooter $300
per day. If that shooter is good, they are either going to want more
money, or want to eventually move on. It's like owning a McDonalds
and wanting to hire less high school and college kids and wanting
responsible adults because they just help the place run so much
smoother. Of course they do....but when you offer peanuts you get
monkeys. It's an easy problem to solve.....offer more money and a
full time position. Second shooters that can't make a living working for you,
just aren't going to prioritize your work the way you want them too and
really why should they? You are just some extra beer money for
them on the weekends. Now say you are paying 60-80k per year.
Do you think you might be able to attract a good shooter for that?
Probably, but now your problem is it ruined your business as you
don't make enough money to pay this.....which is why you need to raise
your rates if you want to be a business that offers this. If you offer a
premium service, you need to charge a premium price, it's as simple
as that. Problem is, brides have convinced many of us that they want
that level of service.....but only want to pay $1500 for it. So people
try to go hire 2nd shooters for $300 for the day and complain about the
2nd shooters they get. I'm sorry but that's just gonna be a crapshoot.

Now I sympathize, I too am a one person video company, asked
to do more and more for less and less. But the few times I have
taken on big projects requiring additional shooters, I have paid them
what a professional shooter might charge in LA or NY to shoot network.
$1500 a day. Because I paid that, I was able to get someone good
that I didn't have to hire on a full time basis. But if you are going to
make a habit of doing weddings that need more shooters that are good,
the best way is to hire them full time and pay them. You might think
what you are offering is 'good money' but if they can't make a living
off it, it's honestly more of a hobby for them. Say you pay someone
$300 a day and hire them 4 days a month for the 5 months you are busy
doing weddings. They made 6 grand off you for only 16 days....but
they certainly need another job to pay the bills! So how important
are you really to them? Probably not as important as their normal
job, so you are in danger of being ditched, any time there is a conflict
with their other job (or really, even if they are tired that weekend from
working all week at their real job.) So there you go. You are either a
business that pays and employs others at a good enough rate to make them
'invested' in your business.....or you are trying to 'bit hire' and
'farm out' ocassional work at rates that cannot support a person full
time. Which is fine, but don't be surprised then, when you receive
less than stellar work. That's just the way the world works.
You want someone 'competent, reliable and that cares about
their work?' You can find that person.....but it's hard when you
are offering 'bit work' that can't support that person.

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Gabe, I agree with what you say. What I'm saying is that the really good Wedding Videographers are more likely to have their own business. Okay so say these Videographers can find a good company they can work for, pays well, no hassle or stress advertising, just regular work. I can see the point, but for many it's working to someone else's rules and creative style.

Those companies I have dealt with both hiring and being hired usually prefer to train and mould the Videographers. I know one high profile company that works this way. Okay so those they hire don't have the experience straight away but they also don't have their own way of doing things and creative style.

Money isn't always the answer. I've hired Videographers and from experience, it's those that charge the most that have the ego to match. They're inflexible, set in their ways and difficult to adapt to my way of working. On the other hand, 2 guys half the price were open to suggestions, easy to train and now do great work for me. Took more effort but in the long run it pays dividends. Problem is keeping them and being sure they're available when needed.

I suppose if I offered full-time work I could, but I don't. As I said I agree with your assessment regarding the methods needed to run 2nd shooters professionally. However you need the right market to have the regular work to support this. No point raising your prices if the local area isn't interested in what you offer.

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You're right, many good shooters already have their own
business. You are not guaranteed anything, but if you
offer good paying, full time work, you will be able to recruit
outside your immediate area as many skilled people would move
for a good job. But it's hard to do this, because you now have to make
much more money....I get it. I'm just saying that if you are going to
be small, this is a problem you will constantly have. Trying to hire
people who are 'good' for 'bit work' isn't a recipe for success. Just like
offering minimum wage at a McDonalds ensures you will constantly be
training new people. Your or my second shooter 'bit work' is just as much of
an 'entry level' job in this business, as fast food worker is in the general
population......with all the corresponding trials and challenges.

As for the hiring of others, I have had the direct opposite experience.
Hiring professionals who charged a lot, results in me getting people that
bring me good shots, with plenty of coverage of what I send them out for.
Hiring inexperienced so I could 'mold' them got me a hot cup of jack squat.

As an aside, most of the 'big companies' I see doing high end weddings
work well outside 'their local area'. They are booked to fly to other
states and countries because people value what they do to the point of
flying them to exotic locations to perform their magic. If you are good
enough, it doesn't matter where you live, your market will be well beyond
your immediate area in which you live.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I put out a Craigslist add one time, and some of the responses I got were comical. One guys hourly wage amounted to more than I make myself. Always interesting being the boss.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I think Gabe its a simple solution for you. Pay good wages and start hiring people who'll stay with you thick and thin and do great work. Maybe that works where you are. In the UK finding good video professionals is hard enough, finding good Wedding video professionals even harder. There's a reason a high profile company I read about hires University leavers and trains them rather than simply advertise at a high rate for full-time employment. The reasons she gave weren't about money as she pays a full-time wage.

People moving for a job. Most have a family and are already making a living from video or other employment. To give that up and move say a couple of hundred miles for work that carries no guarantees. Do you offer sick pay, redundancy payment in the event of a bad season.

I agree there is a market for such companies but probably over here anyway, not enough work to accommodate those companies that are already established let alone a new one. Theres a good market for solo Videographers with the occasional 2nd shooter. Employing someone full-time and upping your prices would therefore put you in a different market, which you have to be sure is there to keep you in business.

For many of the Weddings I film, working solo is fine. Yesterday I could have used someone from 11 till 4 as the Bride wanted her departure filmed and although I did visit the church before to set up cameras, it did mean missing the Brides reveal of her in her dress to the Bridesmaids and caused me issues at the church with parking arriving late and putting a mic on the Groom. I had to get an usher to pass it on. A lot of stress that even with planning led to difficulties that would have been avoided with a 2nd shooter. Frankly the role this person would have had would be quite minor but even if just to stand outside and call me when the Bride approached would have helped enormously, not to mention parking the car. I did use my brother last week and that helped a lot despite his lack of video knowledge.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

One thing that has helped me, is my wife is a business owner.
She has been running businesses for a long time and owns a
business currently that has nothing to do with video. She knows
a LOT about how to make a business successful. I have seen first hand
how to make a several million dollar (gross) business with around 50
employees. What challenges you face. How to position yourself for
success. What not to do. Dealing with the 'entry level challenge'
which is what I was trying to discuss earlier.

One thing I've found, is that most video guys are good at what they do (video)
but not very good at business. And we are also good at making excuses.
'Brides in my market won't pay' or 'There is a lack of qualifed people to hire'
....'you couldn't charge those rates in MY market, you'd starve' and a million others.
I've said all this and more. After all, I live in a tiny town in Alaska. Basically an island,
no roads in or out, you have to fly or take a boat to get here. And prices to travel
are horrible. I was contacted to quote on a job in a town 90 miles away. I had to add
about $900 to my quote because that's what airfare and a hotel cost. So
I felt justified making excuses as I'm in a pretty unusual situation.
Then I read about Polar Art Productions. Living in Kaktovic, Alaska,
population almost 250. About 650 miles by jet from the Anchorage road system.
And not only running a video production company, but one that is
rocking a Red Epic while shooting for Nat Geo, BBC and Hollywood.
Well, so much for my excuses. There's a company in an even smaller,
more remote Alaska town doing much more than me. Then I talked
to a DJ in my town who is hired to fly over to Thailand, Japan and
other countries to do weddings. And a photographer who flies all over
to do senior portraits. And these are just a couple of many people running
a small business in the middle of nowhere Alaska. We often put artificial
limits on ourselves. Because honestly it's scary. Scary to risk the
possibility of failure. I'm not telling you what you should or
shouldn't do. There are valid reasons to stay small. And hey, I don't
know for certain what would work or wouldn't work in your
market. There is a lot of stuff to deal with when you start hiring
people. And legitimate reasons not to. But I understand business.....and
I'm just saying there is a 'line in the sand' here. On one side are small companies
who occasionally hire help and usually have a hard time finding it. They charge
less money....and have less overhead. On the other side are the 'big guys' with multiple
shooters, sliders, 3 axis gimbles and so on. They charge a lot and fly all
over the world doing weddings. You aren't going to be on that side of the line
if you are hiring second shooters every once in awhile paying $300 a day.
It's the same challenge other businesses face with entry level
workers. That's ok, but if you are going to be a McDonalds, be a good
McDonalds. Too many of us are trying to offer a Benihanas menu but
charge McDonalds prices.

And I also do know this. Many more of our limits are
'self imposed' than we want to admit.

For more on this, I highly recommend Den Lennie's book
'Business for Filmmakers'.

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Gabe, when we say that Brides won't pay more, we mean within our price bracket. To use your analogy, McDonald's are not going to cater for the clients who dine at fine restaurants. They target a particular market and their prices reflect that. Same with Wedding videos.

Are there clients willing to pay for videographers to fly all over the World, yes. However there are many many more who won't. If we all went high market, the bubble would burst in a matter of months. There's a need for a business like mine that offers what it offers. Do I want to be that jet setter flying all over the World, sometimes. However I get a lot of job satisfaction from the market I target. Why should the well off be the only ones to have a top quality video. Plenty of people with only ,£1000 to spare deserve a nice video just as much as the next person.

I'm not complaining about 2nd shooters, I have 2 I'm very happy with. Are there issues, of course. However I don't think being in charge of a larger business employing more than 5 and paying them loads more would solve all these issues.
The bigger you are the harder you fall is an old cliche but true. Most of the time I work solo and I find that rewarding and mainly stress free. Occasionally I do have a 2nd shooter and must accept the odd hassles hiring someone can bring.

Being a larger business as you describe will bring it's own issues and hassles. You may not have worries over hiring people but sickness, personality conflicts and staff issues will still present themselves no matter what you pay.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

The book you refer to is for corporate video, not wedding video, both are 2 totally different worlds so not sure if those tips might be of any benefit, the clients are totally different and one is a controlled and the other a uncontrolled environment. You would be better off watching a workshop from those that did succeed in getting high end clients eventhough they all make it sound a lot easier then it actually is.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I think Gabe is looking at this from a corporate shooter perspective, the percentage of corporate clients that have very big budgets is much higher compared to weddingsclients, how many weddingvideographers you know that are flown all over the world to cover high end weddings? I just know a handfull that are able to charge 10K+ for that so it is a very tiny market and it's even worse in Europe, I"m sure the budgets in the USA are in some places way more over the top then what we are used to here.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Steve and Noa, yo are quite right when you say that the number of high paying wedding bookers is tiny in Europe. If that were not the case, there would be many top priced wedding video companies as there are in the corporate field.

I target my market where I feel the biggest number of customers are. I could quite possibly go a little higher and quite possibly lower, but I am very happy with the market I work in and the profit margins I make by keeping it solo and stress free.

Roger

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Ah and there was me thinking Gabe was speaking from a Wedding point if view. My mistake. I'm out in the field these last few days, so only reading and replying via my mobile. Hadn't yet checked the book out. I agree Corporate and Wedding has a different budget. One is for business, the other for pure vanity. Hard to get Brides to commit a lot for a video they'll see at most once a year on anniversaries.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I was assuming Gabe was talking about corporate videos because he referred to that book from Lennie which was specifically written for that group, not sure if Gabe does weddings as his main source of income but we sometimes do have discussions here when some don't understand the problems we weddingvideographers have to deal with to find out that they are in a total different line of business, like shooting danceconcerts, which like corporate shoots also have a different audience.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

You are saying pretty much exactly what I am saying but I have one add on.
If you decide to do what you are doing, and target the market you
are targeting...the 1000 wedding, then that is great....you know
exactly what kind of business you want to be and what you should
do to make it successful. I'm just saying if you do that, don't be
surprised when you may have a hard time finding good second shooters
willing to work for what you can afford to pay them! I know a lot
of people who choose this niche and are always complaining about
how they can't find a good second shooter, that lasts longer than a
couple months. And my 'add on' is just saying.....your second shooter
job is an entry level job, just like McDonalds is. You are not going to
find or keep good people in those positions often. As this was a thread
which seemed to be based on wondering where or how to find good second
shooters, I am just submitting that people remember.....if you are in the
above business category, then your second shooter job is every bit as much
of an entry level job in this industry as McDonalds worker is for
the general public. So yes, you will very possibly be dealing with
the 'entry level' challenge.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

I do weddings, corporate video, promo videos, even worked a couple days for
CNN and ABC World News the last few months. I understand well the problems
wedding shooters face, which is why I don't depend only on weddings in my
business. Another business lesson I learned, something about too many eggs
in one basket.

As for the book, it is geared more towards corporate filmmakers but it
talks a good bit about wedding filmmakers as well. Pages 88-95 for example
are all about wedding filmmakers and how to market yourself to your
'Ideal Bride'.
I'm not going to say I agree with every little thing he says, but there's a lot
of good in the book.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Gabe, the problem with these books is that words are easy, applying it is not. I film a guy regularly who teaches How to make a Million Dollar Practise. Does he have a million dollar practise, no. But he talks well and says the right things. Books are often common sense written as inspirational words. Useful tips for the ignorant. I've got books a plenty, some insightful, others less so. However I do run a successful business. Okay it's not targeting high payers but then neither is McDonald's. They do well by knowing that there are more looking for fast food than there are for posh restaurants.

Now as to your other comments. I am not surprised over the difficulty in keeping other Videographers. I am not so stupid to fail to see how the lack of regular work will have those I hire go elsewhere. Common sense. You have targeted one issue among many and made it the defining one in your eyes. It's not one in mine. Finding staff is easy, finding good staff is not.

I don't feel that full-time employment is the only means to find good staff. These Videographers I approach have marketed themselves as freelancers competent in their field. Its not unreasonable to expect that if they apply to work for me, they actually be competent and able to carry a shot without blown highlights, failing to press record, missed shots, dodgy audio etc. I pay these people more than I get myself on some jobs, so I ask for at least the same conscientious approach to work that I give to others when they employ me. I have been rewarded to some degree with this, but in other occasions, not.

To go back to your MacDonalds analogy, I've been to some where I have had to wait for too long and been served by unpleasant staff, but in others I have been served quickly by helpful and conscientious staff. Just because they get paid minimum is no excuse for bad attitude. If they don't want the work, don't do it. If others can do the work and serve customers well, so can they.

In a similar veil, if those I hire are not as skilled as they described or treat it as if it's below their usual level of work, don't apply for it. However if you do, I expect not the same level of experience as me, but at least work as hard as I would in their situation. if they do the job worse than my very first Wedding video, I have to ask why they think they deserve to be a Videographer in the 1st place.

There are plenty of freelancers out there not looking to work for one company as like you they feel it puts their eggs in one basket. It's this pool I dip into. I have a couple of those I find work well, but others that have dissapointed me. Those that do well, I don't expect or ask for a monopoly on their time and if at some point they become unavailable, I am understanding and not the least bit surprised.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

As to what you are saying about 'applying it' being hard, you are right!
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it! If you are still in business, that's
a lot better than many can say!

As for why I have 'targeted one issue among many' and 'made it the defining
issue in my eyes'.....well I did that because the title of this particular thread was
'Second Shooter Add on' and the thread was mainly talking about the problems that
people have in finding good, reliable, conscientious, second shooters. Again,
my point is, if you have decided that your business is going to be a 'fast food'
type wedding business, the employees you have to pick from will usually be
'entry level workers'. It's that simple And that is fine, usually when you are
doing weddings at this level you don't need a 2nd shooter, and only occasionally
run into this problem. But when you are in this area of business, and you DO hire
a second shooter, you better expect that it is very possible that you WILL be getting
some people who will 'blow highlights' or 'miss shots' or 'not get good audio.' I'm not
saying it is impossible to get good entry level workers.....it's just hard. As you
yourself say, some McDonalds have good service, others not so much. To quote
a movie, it's just that the "Odds are not ever in your favor" when you are hiring
entry level people in any industry. Look at other entry level jobs in other industries.
The people there can be good......but often are not. They apply for the work.....
but often give less than optimum effort. I'm not sure why you seem to think
that entry level videographers are going to be different from entry level workers
in every other industry.

Here are a few of your quotes:
"Just because they get paid minimum is no excuse for bad attitude.
If they don't want the work don't do it. If others can do the work and
serve customers well so can they. If the work is below your usual
level of work, don't apply for it. If they do the job worse than my very
first wedding video, I have to ask why they think to deserve to be
a videographer in the first place?"

I've heard these quotes (with slight variations as they are not wedding video
related) over and over the last 12 or 13 years. My wife and most of my friends own
and run (non video related) businesses, most of which employ entry level workers.
So I hear every single one of these every day as my frustrated wife and friends
try to deal with workers who randomly don't show up for their shift, call in on
Saturday morning 10 minutes before their shift 'sick' from a night out drinking,
quit their job with no notice, text their friends while ignoring customers, go into
the office and play games on their phone instead of cleaning the store when
customers are not around, claim their car is broken down, only to be seen out driving
with friends later in the day......I could go on and on here. Trust me,
every industry I know of deals with the exact same problems people on this
thread are having with second shooters. My conclusion kind of
has to be this.....if entry level people do this in every industry from food service, to
tourism, store clerk, guide, deckhand, and cannery worker, cook, and prep worker.....well
it is highly likely entry level people in the video business will have the 'video related
equivalents' of this type of behavior as well.

To go back to your example, if you 'dip into the pool of freelancers', and
are disappointed with the results....I would hazard a guess that if you are
doing ￡1000 weddings you are not getting true professional video freelancers.
I would be highly suspicious of any video professional who works for what you
would be able to pay them out of a ￡1000 wedding. Suspicious of them in that
I would not think they would really be a professional and would kind of expect the type
of entry level mistakes you seem to say you are sometimes getting from them.

So why post on this? I guess because I find it ironic that people complain about
entry level workers and somehow expect things to be different in the video
business as they are in every other business out there. As I said, if you position
your business in this part of the wedding video market.....I feel it is just a fact that
you will have to deal with these kind of 2nd shooters. And I say this not only as
a person who runs a successful video business, but someone who has a lot of
experience in other businesses as well. Entry level worker problems are well known.
Add to that the fact that 2nd shooter video wedding work, is very sporadic work, and
I'm just not seeing a good selection of skilled people lining up to do it.

But is there a solution that could help people in this position? And here
may be something helpful....or maybe not as prices seem to be a huge thing
that maybe your market just can't support anything higher. What I personally
did, was find another person who had a style similar to mine and whose work I liked.
(And here I'm talking about another 'one person company'). I 'partnered' with this person,
so that when I had a call for a wedding that I could not do 'solo' (because the bride wanted
special things beyond my ability) I would call her in. And she did the same for me. Not as
a 'second shooter' but as a partner on the wedding. The rate was obviously much higher then
it was when I did a 'solo' wedding, but I was able to offer another 'tier' without having to
worry about the quality of my 'second shooter'. Now obviously this brought in its own
set of problems as we had to share calendars with each other, and 'dual' shooter
bookings could only happen if neither of us was already booked. Plus she had to
make her rate too, so it was obviously more expensive for the brides. But if
you are doing very few '2nd shooter' weddings anyways it might work. Or maybe
you could do this with two or three other 'solo' video companies....so that one of them
will hopefully be free. At least then, you know your 2nd shooter can do things right.
Or maybe it just works for me, because weddings are not all I do so I'm not swamped
with weddings.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Ugh......sorry, I reread it and my last post is coming across wrong and
kind of mean spirited.

I don't mean it to be bad mouthing anyone at all. I just think that it is
not surprising, that if a person positions their business in the
'lower end' of the wedding market, that the 2nd shooters they will
'tend' to be able to hire (and there are exceptions).....will generally
be shooters who have some of the problems that are mentioned.
I don't think this is a surprising thing and I think it is something you
basically have to expect to deal with when you position your business
this way.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

One more thought about "why second shooters?": chaotic weddings.

I'm thinking Indian weddings, and Asian weddings with tea ceremonies conducted at people's houses. In these sorts of situations, often there's confined space, with no room for a tripod, lots of guests packed around, many wielding mobile phone cameras.

It is such comfort to know that you've got at least two chances at getting the shot, and if one camera gets blocked (for instance, the cameraman is packed in by crowd and can't move), you can still cut to the other camera.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Gabe, the one massive flaw in your argument is this. How can hiring someone who has say 15 years video experience, has worked in the TV industry and many years experience as a freelancer be an entry level worker. I mean if I was hiring University leavers, yes I would agree with the risk. When I go through the list of applications, I am at least looking for experience. Now I know offering what I do that there is a risk. You presume by complaining that I expect video to be different to other industry's, I do not. I worked at a University in a team that hired students and made the same complaint about those that didn't give the same level of work as others did. I don't care if the wages are entry level or not, my attitude is that of you applying do the job, you do it well.

Now I fully appreciate there are many that don't, but consistently those I have paid he most, that have the most experience have given me the poorest work. How does that square with your theories. The problem is those with plenty of experience can look down on Weddings as beneath their usual line of work. Whereas those coming into freelance fresh are grateful for the work and do a good job. That's how I started.

At a Wedding last year I spoke to a couple that hired a videographer. He had on his website apparently listed working as a cameraman for various production companies including the BBC, was in his 50's, had plenty of samples from other Weddings he had filmed, charged 3 times my rate and did a piss poor job on their video. Biggest complaint was that the guy was lazy on the day and missed things like the cake cutting. Something I've never missed.

If I really thought that more money was the solution to the problems hiring staff, I'd take it. However when I get better work from those charging less, the incentive isn't exactly there to raise prices.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Steve,

Here is what I am thinking. If you are charging £1000 for a wedding what
are you able to offer your second shooter? Whatever that amount is, you
advertise for a second shooter for it. You now have a flood of 'applicants'
for that position. Apparently, some of them tell you that they have
'15 years video experience' and 'have worked in the TV industry and have
many years experience as a freelancer'. I'm immediately very suspicious of
those claims. Why? Because I am someone who has '15 years video
experience' and anyone I know of at my level that actually DOES have
this experience (as opposed to 'claiming' they do) will not work for that
amount of money! It's similar to when my wife receives applications from
those who claim they have advanced degrees or have managed restaurants
before. Really? Why are you applying for a minimum wage job then?
(She will actually ask them this in a potential job interview!)
Either they are lying about their experience, or if not, there is a very good reason they
can not find work appropriate to their level of experience. Maybe they don't
get along with others well. Maybe they have problems with authority. Maybe they
are lazy. But I can tell you, from experience, any time you have someone that
looks 'overqualified' applying for an entry level job.....there is usually a good
reason for it! Which it kind of seems your own experience has shown to be true?

Obviously there are exceptions. But I've found that as a rule, you get what
you pay for. Buying cameras, tripods, lenses, lights, and yes, even in hired help.
I'm not sure how accurate it is for you to try to compare those you have paid
'more' to those you have paid 'less' and say that often you get better work from those
charging 'less'. How much exactly are you able to pay those that you paid 'more'
to? As someone who has 15 years video experience, I can honestly say, my
day rate is more than you are charging for your entire wedding. My day rate is
the same whether I'm shooting a wedding or shooting a corporate video, or shooting
for ABC World News. Now maybe someone makes a change and starts paying 2nd shooters
£200 instead of £100. I'm just not sure that has risen to the level of 'professional'
pay. I'm seriously not trying to be a jerk at all, it's just that everyone I know
that is actually GOOD would charge way too much for a £1000 wedding to be able
to hire them. It's very possible your market is different and professional
video people work for less.....as I said, Alaska is a VERY expensive place to live!!

I also understand that it is VERY hard to offer a high pay rate, without knowing
what you are really going to get in return! Maybe I have been lucky, as every
time I have hired someone at a 'professional' rate, I have got a professional
product. I think that's why it's such a 'who you know' industry. I tend to hire
those that other video professionals recommend as opposed to anyone that
answers an ad I put out. If there is no recommendations from anyone else
that certainly makes it much harder!!! Then the best you can do I suppose,
is look at demos of their work. Not just 'montage' reels, but an actual
entire wedding film they produced! Even then, I suppose they could
lie and 'steal' something off the internet, which really makes it hard. I can
certainly sympathize with what you are dealing with.....in my part of the
world, offering a professional rate works, but if that is not the case for you,
I'm not sure there are any easy answers.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Gabe, I think things are very different where you are. On the other end of the scale, one of those who contributes here who does theatre work hires professional people for even less and thinks what we charge for Weddings is very good. Take a look at a recent thread on 'Asked to Film for Another Company'.

Jobs at your rate are just not available here. I've never seen one offering £1000 for a day rate for 2nd shooter. I've never encountered any Videographers even asking for it. Most anyone asks for is £50-£60 an hour and they're the good ones.

Besides you say you charge equivalent for over £1000 for a days work. Does that include travel, are you any good. If I hired you for a Wedding, would I be happy with what you delivered. Perhaps you only charge that amount because where you live, you can get away with charging that amount. Try charging that over here and you'd be out of work in a fortnight.

At the end of the day if I offered £1000 to 2nd shooters I'm sure some of the difficult and uncooperative ones will be more willing to do their best, be on time and open to suggestion. If only to keep the well paid work going. However it feels like a bribe rather than a payment. Still it would resolve some issues, not all. However I'd have to up my prices and that just won't happen unless I hit a different market. I'll just have to continue to take these risks.

I still reserve the right to complain about it mind. Entry level or not, there are plenty of good ones at this level to show up the bad ones.

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

[QUOTE=Steve Burkett;1895408]
I still reserve the right to complain about it mind. /QUOTE]
Surely not you Steve ;-)

Roger

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

[quote=Roger Gunkel;1895424]Yes I know it flies in the face of my calm, easy going, forgiving nature, but needs must. :)

Re: Second Shooter Add On
 

Yeah, different countries after all, so there is bound to be differences.
I would say, that if I was doing weddings and was only able to charge
what it sounds like your market will bear, I'd be inclined to 'solo'
everything, as I'm not going to want to part with much of what I am able
to charge. Probably go with a number of cheaper camera set up at
various angles 'unmanned' in strategic places (Wide shot back of aisle,
mid/close up from back of aisle, MCU on bride, MCU on groom, maybe
a reverse angle of crowd, and then me with a \'roving\' camera to
\'pick off\' shots I see. Then I\'d just deliver a \'doc edit\' and have to hope
I got the coverage I needed from the angles I chose.

I will also say, that I used to charge $500 for a wedding in my market
and almost starved. I thought if anyone tried to charge more than that,
they would go out of business for sure. Granted, I do not do weddings
exclusively, as I provide web promo videos for businesses and organizations,
as well as other event coverage and even freelance news from time to time.
Anyways, I saw wedding photographers had no problems charging 10-20 times what
I charged and would get it. I finally decided to raise my rates. Not sure
how it worked, but I suddenly got much busier. Now I would not want to try
to live off doing weddings alone, but I will say, I have booked a lot more weddings
per year at my higher price, than I did at my lower price......in the same market.
Still not sure why but I swear it\'s true.

As for travel, with weddings it\'s not really an issue, because I\'m in such a remote
location. There are enough wedding shooters in the US, that charge my rates, that
someone can find a wedding video company in my skill and price range in their own town.
I\'m not good enough to be at the high end and get flown all over....and remember
there are no roads into or out of my town so the only way to get hired for a wedding
shoot that is not in my small town is a VERY expensive jet ticket. I have been hired
to fly and shoot a wedding outside my town exactly twice in the last three years so
it doesn\'t happen often.

As for my rates, something I learned was this. I don\'t work as a second shooter at
any price. It\'s just dumb for me to compete against myself by letting others hire me
at cut rate prices as a \'second shooter.\' I will work as a partner on a wedding with
one particular company, and she pays me my normal shooting rate......which is
pretty much the exact same rate that she charges for the shooting of a wedding I
might add.

So, maybe the reasons I get away with charging what I charge is because I do
NOT only do weddings. There may only be 5% of the wedding population that will
pay what I charge. But I also get hired to do events, lots of web promo videos,
TV/Broadcast, documentary shooting and things like that. So if someone IS
doing weddings and can\'t live off the top 5%, they lower their prices to stay in
business. Then when a \'bigger budget\' wedding comes along, those brides are
going to usually hire me and not the \'low budget\' video companies. That\'s the
only way I can figure out why I get more weddings at my higher rates, maybe
it\'s because there is less competition there at the higher end.....because you
can\'t stay in business ONLY doing high end weddings but if you do other video
work as well, then you can? I dunno, it\'s just a theory.