The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Okay, as a user of the GH4, I am pretty excited about the latest news from Panasonic. An upgrade to the GH4 that adds Vlog. Okay, boo hiss, its a paid upgrade, but to be honest I was expecting that. However I'm intrigued as to how VLog can be used to help me with Wedding filming. Does it take a long time to grade; how steep is the learning curve.

Nether-less the possibilities of 12 stops of DR vs 10 stops has its appeal, especially with harsh light both inside from windows and outside generally.

However the big surprising news for me is the new GH4r, planned for European countries only, which will finally remove the recording limit. Suddenly I have a camera that matches my main one and which isn't encumbered with 29 minutes limit. I can see it replacing my 2 hacked GH2's, which are showing their age and of course don't do 4K. I was considering getting an export, but in light of this news, I shall hold on and wait for the GH4r.

Is this the future - will other cameras follow suit and finally end this frankly ridiculous limit. I do hope so.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

And you're willing to pay the VAT on that?

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I just hope the R range continues when the 5th GH camera drops. Similarly to you, I was very excited to hear the news of the new turn for DSLRs with the release of a camera that shoots for as long as an SD card runs. Like you, I was also considering an import. I'm really glad a company has decided to pay the EU tax in relation to the recording limit, and finally allowed us to pay extra for what we want.

Panasonic really does listen to its consumers, and I'm hoping that we'll see the GH5R drop along with the GH5 next year, as I'd like to buy the GH5 without the recording time limit as well.

As for V Log, from Digital Revs review of the Log profile months ago, I am wary of using it for weddings. It sounds like nailing your focus is a worry when the colour profile is so flat. That said, I'm sure that AF would free you of any unnerving circumstances, and like you, I am interested in the 12 stops of dynamic range, though I do like blowing out the windows of venues from time to time, especially if I am shooting morning prep.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I wouldn't shoot weddings with Vlog L unless you want to spend time denoising all your footage.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Er yes. Odd question.

I think for every shot it would be too much, but used correctly I think it has potential. Time will tell.

Is this a statement based on actually using the GH4 with V Log or just the DVX200's application of it?

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I thought this thread was about the GH4.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Nope, its more about V Log and the end of the recording limit. I mention the DVX200 as I hear the image is quite noisy with V Log, and I wondered if your concerns about it were based on that alone. Opinions are divided, but many feel the GH4 and the DVX200 are quite different cameras, so it may not suffer the same issues. I say maybe of course.

There is also the fact that those beta testing the GH4 with V Log never complained to my knowledge of the noise issues, but perhaps you can link me to cases where they did. I'd be interested to know before forking out for the upgrade.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Well, of course if the weddings you shoot are outside during the day, then you won't have any problem at all.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Excellent.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

So you're a fan

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Just bracing myself for everyone who starts complaining when it bites them while trying to film a low-light reception.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

You're clearly a glass half empty sort of person. What happened to looking on the bright side, a touch of cheerful optimism. Maybe it'll deliver in low light. Time will tell. I never expect any Panasonic camera to nail low light as perfectly as say a C100, just enough to suit my needs.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

More like I know what I'm talking about.

Because it's unrealistic to expect if you know what you're talking about.

No it won't, and I would be willing to bet money over it.

I paired a GH4 with my C100 and it wasn't enough to suit my needs.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I confess to never taking seriously anyone who says they know what they're talking about. Always comes over like hubris to me, but there you go. You're entitled to your opinion and it may well be you're quite correct. I'm not experienced on v log to offer evidence to the contrary. No doubt that will change when I do the upgrade. My expectations are realistic, so you shan't suffer any complaints from me. I must admit just the opportunity to experiment with grading such footage is worth the upgrade. Looking forward to playing with it over the lighter winter months.

No doubt the GH4 doesn't meet your needs, but for mine, it does. Different needs, different gear, simple as that.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

And I never take anyone seriously who misses the point entirely:

Where did I say that the GH4 wasn't a good camera or that Vlog L is worthless and shouldn't be used by anyone? That's what you say to people who say things like that, but that's not what I said at all. When I say it's not in the same league as the C100, that doesn't mean its bad for everyone, does it?

I think I made my point quite clear that if you try to use Vlog L in a low-light situation that the GH4 already struggles with, that you're going to make things worse, not better. If you use it in bright sunlight, then sure, go nuts (though you might end up overexposing it like the guys at Newsshooter did, but that doesn't bother you I guess?).

Then you said that you think it will deliver in lowlight. My experience, and my knowledge, tells me that Vlog L and low light shooting is going to make for a frustrating experience. If you think I'm full of it, then I think a friendly wager is in order.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Adam Wilt agrees!

Before you rush out to buy V-Log L for your GH4...

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Gary, I'm writing these messages on a phone on a train, inbetween munching on a late lunch and you're analysing each of my points as if cast in stone. This is just general chat and speculation for me not a debate.

V log interests me as its something I've yet to experiment with. Playing with it and using it for critical shots is quite different. I have no knowledge to disapprove what you say, but no reason to accept it blindly either. I don't know you, nor seen your work, so to accept what you say at face value is alas a leap of faith I'm not prepared to take. Not saying you're wrong, but I reserve the right to find out for myself. If v log proves useless in low light, then I won't use it in low light; if exposure is an issue in daylight, I'll use accordingly.

Gary, I'm not sure a friendly wager is applicable here, if only because you never come over as particularly friendly. Are you this fierce in real life, or is this reserved only for your internet personae?

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

With that much drama, you should write a novel.

Is this how you generally "chat" and make "speculation"? You can speculate all you want, but it's clearly not from a good foundation (I could "speculate" on all kinds of things I am ignorant about, but it doesn't' mean that people that are experts in those fields will take me seriously at all).

And where did I tell you not to test it? Where did I say anything of the sort? The most you can accuse me of is snarking against the future posts of people who need help because they shot something in low-light in Vlog without testing it first and now it's a noisy, smeary mess. If you can directly quote me where I said that you shouldn't test it for yourself, then please enlighten me.

So now you're agreeing with me after calling me a cynic and saying you cannot take what I say seriously. And around and around we go!

Do you constantly berate people for not being all Pollyanna in real life?

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Now this is more like it. Less flat out statements and more reasons behind it. Good article. You failed to mention that the issue is more the 8 bit 4 2 0 recording of the GH4 that's part of the problem and that an external recorder can eliminate the issue. This is very useful information as I plan on buying an external recorder.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Sorry Gary, reached my stop, so it's ta ra. Thanks for keeping me entertained on a long train journey. We must do it again sometime. All the best. :)

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Because that's where Adam is wrong. That won't help the noise issue at all.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Correct, it won't help a potential noise issue, but if it is recorded, via external recorder, at 10 bit 4:2:2 in 4k, it will likely not be a "smeary mess" regardless of noise. That being said, the noise will be significantly smaller when converted to 1080 and likely less noticeable and on top of that, something like DeNoiser or Neat Video will have a much easier time with something in 10bit 4:2:2 at 4k than with anything 8 bit 4:2:0 regardless of resolution.

My point is that although V Log may be a smeary mess when recorded in low light at 8 bit 4:2:0, it may be very usable in 10 bit 4:2:2, especially if you have a plug in like that of DeNoiser or Neat Video.

Regards,

Matthias Claflin

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Depends. 3200 and above it will be, just in 4K at 800Mbps.

It's not as big a difference as you think it will be (having done it) and using Neat Video on 4K material is going to let your system render for (potentially) days.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

To be honest I'm not sure how much I'd want to turn to v log for low light stuff. Mostly thats just dance floor shots, some evening Reception footage. I have it more in mind for some outdoor sunny shots, if I was to use it for Weddings. Maybe during the Ceremony. I'm editing one now which could have used a few extra stops of DR.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Really to bad they did not made the removal of the recording limit available through a paid firmware upgrade for existing GH4 owners, I gladly would have paid for that. V-log is something I don't need for my work, I could get a new GH4r but I already have too many camera's as it is :)

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

It's possible that providing a firmware update to remove the recording limit would raise complicated tax issues. It's also possible of course that it doesn't raise any tax issues at all as it's only at the point of import of the camcorder with no recording limit that the customs duty is raised when the camcorder enters the EU. Providing a paid-for or even free piece of software after import shouldn't mean that they can retrospectively impose the tax.

Most likely Panasonic wants you to buy a new GH4r which is priced higher than the costs of a GH4 plus the cost of the v-log firmware upgrade.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Panasonic will be making more money by selling a updated camera version, I think most camera manufacturers do that instead of providing firmware updates to existing camera's. They do listen to complaints from their users but they let you pay for the good stuff :)

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I'm now thinking of replacing my GH2's with a GH4r and my GH3 with an AX100. The recording limit on the GH3 has really bugged me of late. I also do a bit of corporate, where recording needs to be continuous for more than 30 minutes. I've used my GH2's in such cases, so would be nice to replace those. Like Noa, I wish the recording limit was a firmware upgrade too. I'm interested in V Log, so will get that as unlike Noa I do see a use for it, but I've no objections to paying for it. I think its a significant upgrade to warrant some charge and nothing is ever free. We all charge for extras in our Business, so we can't begrudge others doing the same.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

People would have complained if they'd had to pay the video camera VAT on the GH4 back when it launched at £1299? Now that it's a model that will probably be supplanted by the GH5 next May, it's at £1,198 (including VAT). That's a helluva deal if, like Steve, you're on GH2/3 and looking to upgrade and would prefer not to have a recording limit.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Just to put the camcorder tax into perspective. It's not VAT ( a sales tax) it's a customs import duty of 4.9% levied on the wholesale price of camcorders imported into the EU. If the camera was made in the EU it wouldn't be subject to the tax. I don't know what the margins are on cameras but if the wholesale price was £1000 the duty would only be £49.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Looking at it from a different perspective. If dealers offered buyers a £200 discount on the C100, but at the cost of a 29 minute clip limit, how many would take them up on it.

If Panasonic are keeping the price down by £49 but limiting it to 29 minutes, I don't feel like thanking them for it. Especially as the price wil likely drop down that much just to give the camera a few months from launch.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

That was really the point that I was trying to make. Are Panasonic really going to lose sales if the price were £49 more? What is the competition in the stills market for the GH4? It's only people who won't use video who would be price sensitive. Most anyone paying that much for a video camera would happily pay £49 extra fro unlimited recording time.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

Trouble is these things are never thought out that way. Most prices are set not to how much the camera is worth, but where it fits in the market and what price they can get away with charging. Oh they'll cover their costs of course, but if a 5D has a retail price Canon feels customers would pay, limiting the clip length just means more profit for them.

Canon paying this video tax on the 5D Mark iii, a camera largely used for Photography would seem a poor business decision on their part, but alas although i think the reverse is true with the GH4, Panasonic just followed suit and toed the same line. As have other manufacturers.

This trend extends even to Bridge Cameras that hold the same 29 minute limit in the USA. A case of a limit imposed by European Tax rules becoming a camera feature across the World. Weird.

Perhaps Panasonic are responding to feedback or maybe they feel imports are hurting the European market. I was thinking of adding a 2nd GH4 by buying from Hong Kong. Now I can stick with European suppliers, which no doubt Panasonic will prefer.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I believe with the gh4r Panasonic is the first one selling a dslr in Europe without recording limit, I can assume the GH5 will have no recording limit either, this gives them a unique advantage to other brands that still have that limit, I wonder if others will follow so we finally can get rid of this ridiculous limitation.

Re: The GH4r - V'Log & Europe's answer to the recording limit problem.
 

I think whether you want to buy the GH4r or not, its announcement for European users is quite significant. If they pass this feature down to their other cameras, then eventually other manufacturers will have to respond. Okay maybe not Canon, but others will.