Outsourced editing?
 

I'm curious about outsourcing editing (long-form, DVD/Bluray edits, not short film/highlights) in the U.S. Approx. what does this sort of thing cost with multicam edits, color correction and between 50-100GB of footage? Do people generally find the results satisfactory?

Just trying to get a ballpark here to see if it's something I should pursue. Usually takes me about 10-20 hours (depending on how much finessing it needs) to comb through my footage, sync up multicam edits, edit and color correct.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Outsourcing your work may cost so much and cutting into your profit so that it may not be worth it. Here in New Jersey I have seen the rates go from fixed ( $400 to 800 ) and hourly from $25 to $50 on multicam shoots. 10 to 20 hours seems about average time ballpark but even so, and averaging it out to 15 hours along with averaged $35/ hr. you're still looking at the $750 mark. There are many editors that will probably be cheaper and lower prices during the winter months but you really have to see their work. Some will even lower their rates if enough jobs are given. I used to know a private editor that did only ethnic multicam editing and charged a flat rate $500 and knock off easily 3 jobs a week. There are also companies that also do it but their rates are over the roof like $1500+. Pricing varies greatly as there are no set standards here. There may be many great editors that do not have enough shootings but have time and resources to take on editing contracts to supplement their income.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Obviously UK here, i have my family who i trained to cut the ends fine tune and get rid of all those crap bits, if any these days but it helps for me to then create the story and film. But no one can replicate your final edit and it will not be good enough for you so i would get the simple arduous stuff done then you move in. I pay £10 per hour for the bits and bobs

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

There is a time and talent difference between "assistant editor work" like capturing tapes, logging footage and syncing multicam as opposed to more artistic work like editing, titles, menu design, music selection, color-correction, and grading. We sometimes do event program editing, usually at $40 per hour (our computer, our software, our location) and it averages about 25-40 hours for weddings. This significantly cuts into the markup and makes it cost-prohibitive for most markets. It can run a lot more if you need high-end color-grading, lots of fancy titling, lower thirds, music sync, etc. A 100GB of footage is about 8 hours and, if I didn't shoot it, requires some time to just comb through it and see what is there. You can probably find someone to just log and sync your footage in 5-8 hours.

The hourly-rate may sound high, but there are several challenges here. The first being that a talented editor needs to make a living AND needs a high-end computer with expensive software (both of which need upgrading or replacing every year or so.) If I'm really running a business, I probably should charge $10-20/hour just to cover the equipment. The only way I can think of to reduce the time required is to produce quantities of programs that are very much alike.

It seems like most of our ongoing demand in this area is for less time-intensive work like "rescuing" segments of footage with poor exposure or mixed lighting, color-grading of an already-edited program, motion titles/lower thirds, menu design, and even super-8 film transfers/corrections for 'growing-up' montages.


Jim
Colorburst Video

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

That's basically what I want. I want some of the grunt work done, since I can't dedicate 8 hours a day to doing any of this. I would want trim garbage, clips on timelines, multicam edits synced. Possibly some audio balancing. All the artistic license things, would be done by me so that I can assure that my clients the style that they're hiring ME for.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Spot on max, train a college kid up to your standard, there will be someone willing to learn editing. Steve

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

I edit the footage that is released to the public: the highlight videos.
Then I pay an editor to do the full-length DVD copy when I am extremely busy. He does a fantastic job and we have an agreed upon rate of $400/wedding since it takes me 8 hours to cut a full-length video.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Steve, when you say cut out the crap bits do you do this before bringing it into your editing program, or do you do this inside your editing program.

The reason I ask is because at the last wedding I had a static camera set up which only only wanted a few clips from but is was running for about 40 minutes resulting in a large file.

My preferred method would be to sub-clip it prior to loading into my editor (Premiere CC) is this possible?

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

That's great Ian, which goes to show a full length editing job can be done in 8 hours. I do mine in around the same time knocking off 2 per week leaving me 3 days leisure time. That's the way it should be. I just do not understand how and why many have edit backlogs and only do like under 30 jobs a year. Either they procrastinate or take hourly breaks every half hour.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Or working quite differently to yourself. I take on 60 weddings a year. Technically I can edit a Ceremony in 2-3 hours, Speeches in 2, the rest in 4. However that is after I've logged all footage, which can take 5 hours to a day depending on the Wedding.

As to why I have a backlog, well lets see, I film 2-3 Weddings a week in the summer. I do a Highlights for each one, which takes 4 hours per video. There's prep time to consider for each Wedding, researching venues, checking equipment, cleaning lenses etc. General admin, answering emails and phone calls. DVD production, including a 30 minute version of the video and additional content like Guest Messages. Meeting up with clients. I also do Marryokes for some of my Weddings and they can take between 8-20 hours to produce depending on their complexity.
Long term, over the summer I'll be doing the following, backing up files, updating my website, keeping my office tidy. Updating records, changes of address, changes to music choices, updating my Sample DVD and Service Pack I send to clients; marketing. Any adverts need to be worked on in Photoshop. Sometimes I'm doing extra work for Photographers, DJ's, Musicians, Magicians I meet at Weddings and who request a video from my filming of them.
Updating my Income and Expenses and keeping all accounts in order. Sending out Invoices. Testing new equipment like the gimbal I purchased mid season. Checks on my car. Visits to the bank to post cheques.

If I only had to consider work on producing a full length video for each client every week in the summer, I'd no doubt enjoy the 2-3 days of leisure you currently have and have no backlog. Alas I don't outsource my work either.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Yes, we all seem to work quite differently. If I had to do all of that , I would have retired a long time ago. Here is my secret simple method:
As soon as I get home from every wedding, no matter how late it is, I dump the entire job onto my hard drive and put all the batteries on charge. The next day's wedding I do the same. Monday morning after I wake up late and had a a few coffees I start editing the first job and make sure it is fully edited . I do same for 2nd job the following day by which time the first job is being encoded to DVD on the 2nd computer. I do not do any fancy slider and bokeh stuff or do retakes of scenes at bridal prep. I do not do interviews, carry lots of gear, use 2nd cameraman, use tripod, supplemental lighting, or any stuff I don't need. I don't edit ceremony or speeches, it is what it is. I just use 2 transitions type, fades and dissolves. I don't do re-edits as it is clearly written on the contract. My clients know me as being unobtrusive and not Mr. Robocop with all the bells and whistles. I charge much lower than my competitors and most of my bookings were referred by venues and past clients. I also work with a photog that we refer clients to each other and have a discounted package. I don't advertise, no need to as I have enough on my hands. I keep thing sweet and simple and I have become rather lazy over the years. Believe it or not, I use iMovieHD with Toast titanium for my editing and menu chapter creation. Works like a charm. Everything done with a pair of 2009 iMac 27 inch with the lowly i5 processor. New clients are handled by my wife at home only on Thursday and Friday evenings by appointment only. I also figured that by the time 4K becomes popular, I won't need to worry about hardware upgrades as I will be turning 65 and retire from all this.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

It is a simpler way of working, but definitely not for me. My clients come to me specifically because of the bells and whistles I offer. Not all clients want the simple basic video, others have different expectations for their video. Some even forfeit a deposit with another Videographer they're booked with and book me instead after seeing my work at a Wedding. 3 clients this year have asked for 4K files, another half dozen a Cinematic edit in addition to the full length. Times are changing.
Oddly enough I'm still seen as unobtrusive, and that is despite using a slider, jib, gimbal, multiple lenses and 3 unmanned cameras. I think this idea of Robocop is a conceit to justify a simpler approach, but bares no relation to reality. Aside from gear in a bag stashed in a corner, I work primarily with a GH4, monopod, and a couple of lenses in a bag, or a GH4 attached to a gimbal. I'd wager you've used larger setups in days gone by when cameras were built like bricks. In fact so have I, 15 years ago covering fashion shows when working for a University. I did my neck in supporting some of those cameras.
As for marketing, well being a Business less than 5 years old, it is part and parcel of establishing yourself.

I'm sure if I was approaching retirement, I'd be keeping things simple too, bidding my time to the moment I'd pack it all in. However with 30 years to go before that moment, my methods and goals are naturally more demanding.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Many videographers here I know have far less number of contracts than I do and their prices are not that much more than what I charge, somewhat around 30% more but they all seem to constantly be busy with editing even though they do around half or LESS than what I I do. Like it seems they are eager to tire themselves out, carrying lots of gear, planning their shots and angles, retake after retake, no wonder the job takes forever to edit. I estimate that with all the hours of work put in a job and with the upgrade of gear cost and advertising, the bottom line profit is marginal at best. Sure the work looks fabulous and they all want to outdo each other like " if you book me, I will lower the price and include 5 extra copies" and another would say " I'll include a second shooter free" and another would throw in a kitchen sink as well. The clients are often overwhelmed with offers and eventually end up booking the one who they find has the best personality and can easily relate with, even though the price is higher. Selling oneself before the product is what works best among the myriad of competitors here. There are many that do a great business offering fabulous videos with highly talented "cinematographers" at prices to match the quality, but over recent years I saw the trend that more and more clients are downgrading their video expectations to affordable levels. If the pricing must be low to match their budget then the editing time must be less in order to handle the eventual extra jobs.
It's all about the bottom line profit.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Absolutely and it works the world over! Whether you do highly priced cinematic video or lower end quick shoots, if they don't like you they won't book you.

Roger

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

That's a rather thorough analysis you have there; for one who does no marketing, you are more versed in your local competitors issues and general service than I am of my own competitors and their clients. But then there are fewer Wedding Videographers in the UK given the general populace.

Not that it matters. Discussing backlog; my time on an edit doesn't vary much from yours, at least for the longer edit. However I offer other videos which my clients do appreciate and which they come to me for. I'm sure a simpler life can be had not offering such videos, but I'm not yet old enough to demand or even expect a simpler life. Plus I enjoy my work or else I'd stayed at the University - better hours.
I've spoken to many of my clients who've scoffed at other videos they've seen, usually by those still offering single camera coverage, which I find almost too preposterous to believe, but some it seems do. I do quite nicely from such bookings.

When 80% of my years income is generated by Weddings filmed from May to beginning of September, it seems silly to rush through such work. Online material is now becoming more common and expected and several of my clients are now looking for cinematic edits too. Demands and expectations are changing; though for the retiring professional, not fast enough to warrant any action I'd wager, but for those with more years ahead in the profession, something to respond to.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

There are a lot of wedding videographers here, just google wedding videography New York, New Jersey area. there are swarms of them, mostly newbies that are itching to shoot. The equipment to even shoot 4K and editing suite to boot can be had for under $5K dollars as opposed to linear editing SD with eng 3 chip cams that set you back well over $25k back then. No wonder everyone's in on it. I like to know how much LESS of these characters would be around if equipment costs were as then. Fact is, we old geezers have to deal with the times and as we get older our back and knees take a slow toll on us. That's why I tend to lean on the lazy side. Like a poem I once remember had the line " the old order changeth yielding place to new". I wish luck and prosperity to all who venture out armed with cameras and burning desires to shoot.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Arthur, I'm starting to lean more toward your approach as time goes by. Although only a fraction of my work has been weddings, I've noticed something that applies regarding event videography clients, whether they are corporate clients or wedding clients.

There are basically two big classes. One class wants a full production. Another class is quite content with a simple recording of the event, provided it is a high quality recording.

Each class is further divided into two sub-classes. Low rate clients, and clients willing to pay well for quality work.

I can profit from the full production sub-class that's willing to pay well. A premium price.

The simple recording class can also be profitable, provided you cull out the clients that are too low rate.

Forget the middle. It doesn't exist in my area. There's big budget production. And there's low budget recording. Most decent people who are low budget will pay a decent price for a really good recording. They don't have the funds for an elaborate production job. By adjusting the amount of work and equipment to the budget, I can still turn a decent profit.

Offering a full production without charging a high price is a formula for going out of business. When people don't have a lot to spend, offering them a very high quality simple recording of their event with very minimal editing can be a practical approach in a market that's flooded with cheap and even free video options for the customer.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

I think Roger is correct in his analysis of types of wedding clients, but then the question is do you target all, some, or one particular type. To target the high end payers, technically complex shoots and multi operators becomes essential, but then of course up go your overheads, investment and operator costs. At the opposite end of the scale, budgets are low, expectations simpler and therefore investment, overheads and operator costs will be greatly reduced.

Areas vary according to potential client income, but generally the higher the cost of a wedding video the smaller the market will be, but also the fewer companies servicing that market. The lower and lower mid priced market will be the one that has the highest number of potential clients and also the most companies. Many of those companies though will be recent startups, probably inexperienced and often short lived. So from my own point of view, building up a long lasting reliable business, with a credible product servicing the highest volume end of the market makes sense.

I have always been a solo operator, using one camera for at least a couple of decades. I like to work fast and light, but have noticed a change in people's expectations, not jnecessarily for short form or long form, but more for an expectation of a more professional product. To that end, over the last few years I have added voice recorders and multiple cameras, still usually solo and still fast and light but giving the ability to supply a more sophisticated product, although with probably a 30% longer editing time.

Given the fact that certainly in the UK, wedding video to photography is probably in the region of 1:10, I added a joint video and photography package to our offerings and work in a way that still keeps it easy to operate. That has had an interesting knock on effect, as clients tend to book photography well in advance, so we have seen a big increase in bookings 1-2 years ahead. 2017 already has over double the contracted number of weddings compared with the same time last year and all but one are joint package bookings. This means that each one of those weddings is worth considerably more than our video only weddings. As a direct result of the interest in the joint package, we have now added a much higher priced joint package with some easy extras and a totally separate photo only package at the same price as the video only.

This all means that for the first time, we have some clearly priced alternative packages which will enable us to pull in some of the higher paying clients. All the packages are still solo shooter based, which enables Claire and I to take 2 of any combination of packages on any day, although in practice if we only have one booked, we both share the work.

Just to include the original subject of this thread, I would never sub out video or photo editing as I consider my expertise and experience to be a big part of what the client is paying for and subbing would considerably increase my charges to the client.

Roger

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

I don't see anything wrong in subcontracting out. None of us are the very best in everything; for me audio is my weak point. Not that I can't do audio, but there are others better able to restore bad audio if ever captured, to a standard that would not be possible by me. I think if I ever had a major audio catastrophe, I'd consider sub contracting that out.

Aside from that I've pondered but never done, sub contracted a basic edit of the Ceremony and Speeches out. There's the lengthy task of going through footage and selecting the cuts you wish to use, but I feel thats important for me to do this, no matter how arduous and time consuming it is.

In regards to clients, I agree there are high payers and low payers. When it comes to peoples expectations, I find it very difficult to simply group them as high or low. The fact that such expectations have risen is only to be expected. At a recent Wedding the Bride was telling me that she didn't initially consider a video. She had this impression of something cheap and cheerful, a home video style shot with 1 camera. An impression no doubt not helped by the fact that when a Wedding Videographer is ever represented on film or TV, its usually just 1 guy hand holding a mid range camcorder. A far cry from the service many now provide.
However with the internet, such impressions are quickly changing. Quality of Wedding videos have improved leaps and bounds in the last decade and as more and more couples see the results, naturally they are going to expect more.

Re: Outsourced editing?
 

Clients in my opinion expect more because they see more. They see nice well done videos, mostly by videographers that have done an excellent job shooting and editing to present a wonderful demo for them. Many use sliders, monopods, steady cam, etc. It is not your old-fashioned 80's video low res SD video memories anymore. Videographers now create really nice stuff with gear that was to dream for just a decade ago. They create masterpieces, spend lots of money for gear and now are all in competition with each other. One offers more, the other offers to lower the price , yet another not only offers more but also lowers the price.This is business. I totally agree about the categories of client's budget and taste and the high end ones expect high end work for their money. I have a few clients that come to me every year to request a high end coverage. I direct them to another videographer that I know as a friend for years, explaining that he is better suited with gear and personnel to handle high end events. I target clients that are not exactly low rate but on another notch up from the myraid of low priced newcomers and ones who advertise prices in the sub $1000 class. Those low "ballers" as we often refer them, are the ones who clients often go to after noticing how high prices can get for a pro production job. So now the client swings back and forth between high and low and everything in between seeing his/her work and another's hopefully settling on one that does quality work within their budget. Not easy to find but they are there. The majority of videographers here consist of a 2 cameramen charging between $2200 to 3500. This the client expects trailer video. their choice of music score, a few re-edits thrown in, nicely done transitions, in short a well done video. The low end "ballers" on the other hand are those who usually advertise on Craigslist or other free ad sites in the $400 to 1000 range. They usually have full time weekday jobs and this is extra pocket money for them. Consisting of a sole cameraman offering interviews and a short trailer at the end with just basic cut in/out editing.Fine and dandy but the client can't really expect much in expertise and quality creative work. That's fine I have nothing at all against them, in fact I love it when a client comes in saying they wanted to spend more to get something much better than them. "Much better" is subjective but plain to see if that next level of betterness involves professionalism, fast turnaround, eye for detail and years of experience. For that extra step up I charge between $1400 to 1600, well within their budget. I give them easy payment terms, low booking deposit, editing done within a week ( they all like that one), unobtrusive coverage and I stay at the venue until the fat lady sings.