Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Hello,

I'm an opera singer and am looking for the right camera (~$1500) to record concerts and operas that I'm in (set up and run for an hour or two), as well as recording audition videos (set up and record takes). I'd love a camera that's versatile enough to also handle artsy "about the performers" footage and occasional abstract footage (nature, city streets, etc.) that I might someday project along with my performances. My audio setup is already quite good.

After reading hundreds of threads here and elsewhere, I've gathered that my requirements are zoom capability (is 12x enough? 20x probably better) and good low light performance. 4K sounds useful for panning/cropping in postproduction but not essential.

Looking at dozens of clips of sample footage, it seems that the GH4 is the only such camera that has really beautiful color range, but I fear its complexity (and price) would distract from my performance. That leaves the AX-100 and GH30, which both appear to have much less rich colors. It seems perhaps the GH30 has better color (?) and the AX-100 is a bit oversharpened, but the 4K might be an advantage. (Or not...huge files, and I'd only be editing on a MBP 2012 2.7 GHz w 16 GB RAM.)

Are there cameras/setups I am missing, or other requirements I should consider? My first recording is October 9-10, so I need to be narrowing this down pretty quickly.

Thank you so much for your help,

Ben

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

For long continuous recording and ease of use the ax100 is a good camera, you don't need to shoot 4K with it, you can choose 1080p as well.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

If you are not a videographer and don't intend to become a videographer, I'd buy a consumer-class video camera in the $300-$500 range. I don't have specific recommendations, but anything highly rated on Amazon should do the trick. Forgive me if I've oversimplified your question, or underestimated your abilities.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Thanks for the replies!

I'm actually interested in video technology and would like to get much more into it and do some projects at a decent level. If I weren't the one performing in many of these cases (and if it weren't for the time limit), I would almost certainly go for a lower-end DSLR.

But the other reason I went for such an expensive camera is that I understood that the low-light performance of a $500 camera, especially zoomed in, wouldn't be nearly good enough for my uses. Is that true?

Ben

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

The AX100 would work fine for you as it will be set, I am sure for a full stage view, set AE shift to -0.2 or -0.5, set focus with spot focus on a subject on stage and it will manage the exposure just fine all by itself. With a large battery and big SD card it would run for over 5 hours.

Ron Evans

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

If you are referring to handicams then yes, the cheap models are less good in low light. the ax100 however is also not a very good low light performer, it produces quite some noise at high iso levels but if you don't plan to shoot at candlelit locations it will handle most situations without a problem.

About recording time limitation on dslr's, panasonic just has announced the gh4r which records continuously but I don't consider that a set and forget kind of camera, it needs an operator at all times to get the best from it.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

The GH4r is for European Countries where the recording limit is in place. Ben's American location means the standard GH4 is already set for unlimited recording. However like you I don't recommend it in this instance. Don't get me wrong I plan to buy some GH4r's for precisely such unmanned use in the way I currently use my hacked GH2's, but this is my personal choice as an experienced Videographer.

I agree that the AX100 would be more than suitable; great image and has been used by those new to video very successfully before. 4K comes in very handy if your computer can handle the files, especially if its your only camera recording.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

I have a Canon G20 and the low light is decent enough for most things. It wouldn't be good for a wedding reception, but for most performances the G20 or G30 should be fine.

If you want 4K then the AX100 or one of the Panasonic consumer camcorders would probably work well. Keep in mind, neither of these have XLR inputs so if you want to record audio then you'll want to go with at least a Canon AX10 because it has XLR inputs and falls within your price range. If you don't need to record audio (except from the internal mic) then don't worry about XLR inputs.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

You only need XLR inputs if you have long cable runs. The little jack socket on the AX100 is fine for a Sennheiser G3 wireless receiver or any other mic with a jack plug e.g. Rode VideoMic.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Thanks for all these helpful replies! I'm recording audio to a Zoom H5 so I will not need XLRs on the camera itself. From what I read it sounds like it might be easiest to record the entire session on Zoom and the camera in one take, sync it all, and even break it up for editing. Does that sound right?

I feel like 4K might be overkill except for the benefit of being able to crop just right in post. Especially since the camera will be unmanned, that seems very helpful.

If folks still think the AX100 is overkill, should I be looking one step down at something like AX33? Will that be worse in concert settings and other low light situations?

Ben

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

The AX33 is OK-ish for a small sensor consumer camcorder but don't buy it if you are ever going to compare the 4K footage side by side with the AX100 footage as that is so clearly better. The ergonomics of the AX100 are better too. I originally bought an AX33 then got an AX100 & sent the AX33 back to Amazon for a refund after comparing the two cameras side by side.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

If you're needing "set and forget", forget about the still/dual capability cameras - most have clip length limits, and are better for supervised use (batteries for one can run out...). My RX10's are great cameras, use similar "guts" to the AX100, and produce good results... but I wouldn't ever consider them "set and forget" as you hit the 29:50 clip length and or a depleted battery in a longer shoot - someone has to hit record again, and change batteries!

An AX100 with a big card and battery can be set on a reasonably sturdy tripod, pointed and framed, hit record, come back when you're done. With a little manual tweaking up front, you'll get good results! You don't HAVE to shoot 4K, but for pan/crop in post it is handy. I haven't used the 1080p in my AX100, but it's probably quite good, judging from what my RX10 generates. Computer upgrades may or may not be needed, newer machines are handling 4K decently, but you should budget for it if you want to shoot the highest quality CODEC/bitrates the camera can produce (again you "could" use lower settings...).

Low light is a relative thing - no matter what camera you use, it will handle "low" light with varying degrees of quality. Cheaper cams with smaller sensors will typically degrade far quicker, and "worser" than higher end cams... The AX100 is no worse and probably a little better than most recent "top of the consumer line" cameras - particularly if you tweak with the manual settings and set shutter speeds low if needed.

I'd echo Nigel on the AX33... tried and found a small chip 4K camera just doesn't cut it next to the larger sensor cameras. Definitely worse in "low light", and looked like 2.5/3K when put next to the AX100...

Record "dual audio" with your Zoom, sync up the video and audio in post, cut and edit as needed. Camera audio is probably fine if you're using this to record rehearsals and such for review.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Forgot to suggest that if you wanted to save some, Sony (Canon and Panasonic too) produced some decent "top of the consumer line" cameras (HD obviously) that might do the trick if you're just kicking tires.

Used HD cameras are out there for decent prices, look for a model # starting with CX or PJ prefix, and the number 7 if you're looking at Sony (i.e. CX760 or PJ760, or similar).

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

I have an AX100 and an AX33, the AX33 I dislike intensely, lower quality not as user friendly the only advantage over the AX100 is the stabilisation is better. The AX100 is so easy to use I wish I had bought two instead of the AX33

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

I don't recall the name anymore but does sony not have a new camera in the 1500 dollar range that has 3 rings on the lens and a 1 inch sensor but shoot in HD only? I saw a topic about it a few weeks back here and was surprised there was not more talk about it since the camera would be released this year, anyone know the name?

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

HXR-NX100... thread is in the DVinfo Industry News fora...

If indeed the camera shares "guts" with the other 1" class sensor Sony cams, it might produce some very nice HD, but if I were shelling out that much on a camera, I'd think VERY hard about the lack of 4K... at some point I think you have to actually see the output on a 4k TV/Monitor/system to appreciate it, but once you have, it's a little hard going back to HD...

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

That's the one, I think for Ben's needs this camera is perfect, it has all the bells and whistles you would expect from a real videocamera, including xlr, I"m sure he wouldn't miss 4K, I see it's listed at 1700 dollar on b & h which considering what you are getting in return is actually pretty cheap. I mean just look at the specs, it even has dual SD memory card slots
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1156385-REG/sony_hxr_nx100.html

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

If the NX100 still has all the touch features ( like touch focus in particular ) it would be great but for me a set it and leave it camera needs good quick set features and AE shift function. I am sure the internals are from the family of CX900/AX100 with a new lens and bigger batteries ( which I would like too ) . I have the AX100 too but only shoot 1080P 60 as for me unless it recorders in QFHD 60P I am not interested. I use my NX30U as an unattended camera these days on my theatre shoots using touch focus to set a point on the stage after I have framed and AE shift at - 0.2 or -0.5 depending how light the stage is for the play. Other setting are shutter at 1/60 and preset internal WB.

I have used my FDR-AX1 also as a fixed unattended camera in the same way shooting QFHD 60P set much the same way but focusing in QFHD is very critical ( the AX1 does not have touch focus ) and I normally set the AX1 with autofocus if left unattended. Lights mess it up of course so use the NX30U as backup to it for lights going down and back up !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

NX100 is a lovely little camera; marred by no 4K and lack on constant aperture in the zoom. Never can understand why variable aperture has to be such the norm for a fixed lens camera - I suppose cost, but for the sake of a couple more hundred quid...

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

The NX30 is the "pro" version of the PJ760 I mentioned, which is nice if he needed XLR, but with the Zoom handling the audio... probably a feature that isn't a "need".

I too wish for 4K/60p... but realistically the computer/monitor I put together to do 4K on the cheap can't even do 60hz... still looks quite good! Once I started using lower shutter speeds, I'm actually pretty happy with the 30p, early results weren't pretty (shimmer/stutter), but with the AX100 using manual settings and keeping the shutter speed down (introducing a bit of motion blur to counteract the super sharpness of the 4K) has done the trick for me.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Constant aperture zoom lenses with a focal length range of 10x or more are rare as hens teeth no matter what sensor size. The RX10 10x F/2.8 may even be unique. Every other motor zoom lens that I know of on a camcorder has variable aperture. DSLR lenses may be constant aperture but mostly aren't par-focal & in any case are rarely more than 3x or 4x plus of course they are manual not power.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

The RX10 proves its possible, so I'm still at a loss why other cameras don't attempt it given the obvious low light advantages. Its the big reason why I prefer to stick with interchangeable lenses for Corporate work even though something like the Panasonic DVX200 with its fixed lens would be a better choice.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Hi all, thank you so much for all these helpful replies. The NX100 sounds great and I think it would be lovely to start out with a low-end pro camera rather than a high-end consumer one, but I need my camera before the NX100 comes out. I am also feeling more and more that 4K would be useful so I can set a wider frame for some buffer (since the camera will be unmanned) and then crop in post to perfectly highlight the ensemble (which in some cases will just be two musicians). This might also help me get around the 12x zoom, which I worry might be on the short side of what I need with a camera at the back of an auditorium.

Am I also correct in assuming that a consumer camera will make it harder to screw up manual settings? I love working with technology but since I'll be the one performing....

The XLR inputs aren't a concern since my audio setup will be mics fed into a Zoom.

Thanks again for helping me evaluate what is needed!

Ben

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

If you are shooting from the back of a hall there will be a delay in the audio getting to the back of the hall so when you sync with the Zoom audio you may have to move the audio sync up a frame or two to get good lip sync. In other words move the Zoom audio ahead of the camera audio on the timeline. The AX100 will give you 30P QFHD that you could shoot a little wide and then crop in post. For all my indoor shoots I set shutter at 1/60, indoor preset for WB and if things do not move much on stage a spot focus on where you will be and AE shift at -0.2 or -0.5 should work fine.

Ron Evans

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Oh -- the audio setup will be on stage! Mics on a stand and such, with a setup based on help from the lovely GearSlutz folks. So I don't think there should be any sound delay to contend with. Thanks for your setup advice!

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

No the sound delay will be to the camcorder mics at the back of the hall if that is where it will be. You will need the camcorder audio to sync with the Zoom so where the camcorder is relative to the stage is important for the delay. If it is 150 feet away the delay will be close to 2 frames. If it is close to the stage almost nothing but then you will need a wide angle lens to get the performers in the shot. I was referring to how in editing you get the audio from the Zoom in sync with the video. If you are going to run the audio out of the Zoom realtime with a long cable to the camcorder then of course there will be no delay. The delay is just the speed of sound through air compared to light. I normally get a feed from the board ( no delay ) taken to one channel and a mic on the camcorder for audience response which will have the delay so I need to re sync the camcorder audio to lip sync with the board output otherwise there will be a reverb/echo.

Ron Evans

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Oh, got it! I didn't realize how pros do audio sync -- what I've done in the past was very frustrating trial and error with iMovie, but hopefully moving up to FCP will make that easier....

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Audio sync I tend to use the waveform you see in the editing software to line up; using something like the audience clapping and certain dialogue to get a rough match then listen and adjust manually until the audio matches right with as little echo as possible. In some cases, even with continuous recording, the audio can drift apart over time, especially when using different devices. So it can be lined up at the start but not at the end. In those cases, I tend to shift one line of audio during a quiet moment or often during the clapping when the shift isn't so noticeable. Takes practise.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

I do my audio sync in Vegas as then I can stretch and squeeze the audio to match the time for the camera audio since an external recorder will not have clock sync with the camcorder. This difference in clock sync will result in variations in waveform on the timeline because when both files are played on the computer they sync with the computer clock. In an hour they can be off by quite a way. My Zoom recorder is also not stable over an hour so I tend to cut sections to sync. Like Steve do this reset at a time that is not noticeable. That is why I try and record both my mic and house feed to the same camcorder that way it is only an offset and easy to just shift into sync. It is of course just mono tracks now with a stereo mix not real stereo.

Ron Evans

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Thanks for sharing your techniques, Ron.

Last night I ordered my AX100 + FV100 battery + 128GB card. Thanks again for all the help! I'm pretty sure this will be a great camera for my needs. Now it's time to choose between FCP and Adobe Premiere.

Ben

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

It may be a little late, but if you want to shoot the high bitrate XAVCS 4K or 1080/60p, that 128G card MUST be a class U3 (should be a SDXC by default at 128G size). A U1 will "work", but will not let you set the highest settings.

The U3 requirement hit with one of the firmware updates that allowed the higher bitrate recording capability... right after I'd just bought a couple U1 cards, of course! I didn't pay much attention to card speeds and ratings, but with these new 4K cameras, you have a need for SPEEED!!

I think you'll find the AX100 to be an excellent solution for your scenario, it is one of the nicer cams I've ever shot with, and once I got the shutter speed figured out so my footage didn't have a lot of stutter/shimmer, I've been thrilled with what the camera turns out. Between it and the RX10II, I've got a lot of capture capability in a small "kit", far more than I could have imagined 3-5 years ago.

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

I am thinking of getting the AX100 to replace one of my CX730 cams that I leave with my other half when she films the last half an hour or so of bridal prep as I shoot off to the church - I do notice however that it has Sony's proprietary shoe mount which has caused me headaches in the past both on my CX730/PJ780 cams - I bought a Sony adapter (so I could mount 'normal' accessories) for my PJ780 which cost nearly £50 and was the biggest pile of junk - plastic and worked it's way loose after 5 minutes - It's sort of putting my off as I do like to leave her with a light on the camera and that shoe mount/adapter is not up to it IMO

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

@Peter -

I may have to try once again to upload pix of the shoe adapter(s) I cobbled up for next to nothing from ebay/HK supplied parts... they aren't "special", and should be just as cheap for you to get into the UK!

The Sony shoe is of course somewhat proprietary, and designed for Sony accessories, with both "keying" and a row of contacts for the Sony interfaces, BUT it really is not much off from a "regular" hot/cold shoe.

I picked up a "foot" that was made of metal, was about $3 or so, so I picked up a few - it had two lock wheels, one to lock to the camera shoe, and one that spun up onto a standard 1/4" post, to which I've mounted in one case a single shoe/clamp, and in the other case a 3 shoe contraption I believe was originally for mounting multiple flash heads in an umbrella... it's stout, you can carry the camera by it, and will hold a light and a mic + ?... if you so desire.

The foot needs to be notched to fit into the AX100 shoe - two bits taken off the "front" corners, and a couple notches part way along each side - then the front edge needs to be thinned out a bit to clear the contacts area at the front of the AX shoe - once that's taken care of, the thing will fit into the shoe, tighten down VERY securely, and you've got a solid mount for quite cheap in parts and a little time with a Dremel tool or equivalent!

Certainly not a reason to not upgrade <wink>! There may even be a ready made version (I know there was a ready made one, but it was pricey, and I'm cheap! Plus I wanted both a single and at least a double shoe...), there just wasn't when I put mine together, but I've seen a few China/HK accessories sporting the needed shoe configuration, so maybe look around, and if you want the details on how to build your own (it's not like it's rocket surgery 'er anything), I'll try yet again to get uploading to work!

Re: Good "set and forget" recital / opera camera
 

Thanks dave - i hope to buy before next season and this will be most helpful