Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Currently I have a Sony HVR-Z7U that I use for ceremony and my "vital" reception parts (intros, first dance, parent dances, toasts) for all of my creatives I use Canon DSLRs but being a one man setup I like having the focus, zoom, and unlimited record time that I get from using a camcorder. Using the memory card unit is a great way to not be stuck capturing tapes but I think it is time for an upgrade and for a camera truly meant for card recording.

With that said, doing the research is daunting, between the multitude of sensor options, what each brand claims to be "low light" as well as with cameras becoming more compact it's tough to fully understand the controls simply from online research.

Right now I have no need for 4k and I'm not sure I will have that need in the next 3-5 years (maybe I'll be proved wrong but based off of what I've seen I don't believe it will be). What is important to me is low light, simple adjustment of manual features; Gain, F-Stop, Kelvin White Balance (these need to be able to be changed during recording easily), some form of manual focus, I need to be able to override focus if it fails during shooting, currently on the Z7 it's a bit finicky but is do-able.

So my thoughts;
Canon XA30
JVC GY-HM200 (or 170 not sure if there is a difference other than the streaming options?)
Sony HXR-NX100 (haven't looked much into it but does look pretty good)
Open to any suggestions in this price range, really the sub $2,000 price range.

Thank you!

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

From those 3 selections ...
I vote for Sony.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

I don't recall where but I read somewhere the nx100 is a poor lowlight performer, maybe a owner can jump in to contradict me?

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

If you mean no clients will ask for 4K delivery just yet I have to agree, I still have a hard time explaining the advantages of a blu-ray over a dvd to a client, from a technical point of view however in the way you can use 4K to your own advantage as a solo shooter using more then one camera during a ceremony or speeches you don't know what you are missing :) As a solo shooter 4K has been a godsend for me, I don't use 4K on all my camera's, only on those which shoot unmanned and where I have no time to check up on them once they are rolling during a important one time event, like the vows. I now just set that camera a bit wider, doesn't have to be exactly level either if I didn't have the time for that while setting up the tripod and I will just choose in post how I want to frame the shot without any visual loss in quality. If I want a more close up I can just do that and the shot will match just fine with my other camera's. It has changed my way of shooting and the extra options I get in post dramatically.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Actually I had 3 of my clients last year ask for 4K files and 4 of my clients this year have requested it. I was also recently contacted by someone who is exclusively looking for someone who films in 4K to film their Wedding next year. Its still a small margin but one I think will only grow over the next few years, especially now that 4K blurays are starting to appear.

As to the original question; I'd stick to the Canon if you're looking to match the Canon DSLR footage to it easily. Sonys colours are harder to match as I've found from experience. Can't speak for the JVC footage as not invested in any of their gear. The Sony does seem to have more exterior controls and a more traditional, user friendly layout for them. Frankly for low light, none of the cameras you suggest will do much to excel in such conditions and will compare badly to your DSLRs. Stump up more cash and you could get the C100, which would work much better with the Canon DSLR's and offer excellent lowlight. A mark 1 could be got quite cheaply if 2nd hand,

Admittedly I'm not a fan of Canon DSLR's for filming anything frankly; though for closeup beauty shots, they work a treat I have to admit. Must be a pain matching the footage to the traditional camcorders. I have a regular client who asked me to re-edit an interview shot with a Canon DSLR and a Canon 1/3" sensor camcorder, with the client's main objections concerning how the 2 cameras didn't match. Alas after trying several attempts, nothing I could do could make both cameras seem identical to the clients satisfaction, so the interview was re-shot. Had the original interview been shot with a Canon DSLR and a C100, no doubt there'd be less an issue.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Ofcourse 4K will be requested more and you can sell it if you promote it, I"m only saying that if you don't promote it and stick to HD that can easily last you another few years like Mike suggested.
Maybe a Canon xc10 might be a good option as well for Mike?

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

I agree with Noa about the value of 4K for editing options, as it is so easy to crop a shot to exactly what you want in post while still maintaining full HD quality. There is also the ability to produce zooms and pans from the full 4K frame.

I've been asked a couple of times by wedding clients about 4K because they have bought a 4K tv, although they are totally unaware of how they will play the footage as there is currently no suitable delivery format for consumers.

As a long time Panasonic video cam user, I will also add a vote for Panny cams as they are missing from your list, particularly the new FZ2500, which would come within your price range, give you the manual flexibility you require, ease of use and unlimited recording time.

Roger

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Wow thank you everyone for your responses! Quickly; 4K I'm in the same boat as Noa, most clients still don't even bother going with Blu-Ray with me, heck some of them don't even own DVD players. Digital delivery is an option down the road but there is no way I could see digitally delivering someone 4K (at least with the way we deliver, aprox a 90 minute final piece).

As far as 4K for the ability to do work on post, yes this could be a great option but between storage and the handling of the files I'm not sure it'd be worth it. If the camera has 4K I have no issues, future proofing is always a plus.

As far as trying to match the low light capability of DSLR I'm realistic, and know I can't do that at the price range I am talking, I am just looking for something better than my CURRENT Sony HVR-Z7.

The issue with the C100 or XC10 is mainly the zoom. Yes I could setup 3 cameras and not worry about zooming but now my setup, storage, and editing has increased by 3.

Let's go with an increased budget, but still looking for a traditional camcorder; suggestions?

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Well I've a couple of Panasonics I could recommend: HC-X1000E & DVX200 - the latter is certainly more expensive, but has a larger micro 4/3's sensor.

Frankly, if you're sticking to fixed lenses, then low light is always going to be an issue at some focal lengths. You'll have to compromise on one of your requirements as there's no perfect camera even if you are prepared to spend a bit more that offers great low light, fixed zoom lens, and lots of external buttons for manual control; not unless you're prepared to pay thousands.

Out of your original choice, I'd go for the Sony. It has a 1" sensor and its external controls are more suited to 1 camera operation. Of course lowlight isn't going to be exceptional, but I think if you're realistic about your expectations, it won't disappoint.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

MIke, I'm coming from the Sony Z5U and it was suggested to me to check out the Sony X70 which I ended up purchasing. A small little camcorder setup which packs a punch. It's got XLR inputs, manual control buttons for Gain, Iris, and Shutter, and built in ND filters. It's good in low light, able to goto 18 possibly 21 with little graininess, and overall is better in low light than my Z5U. Zoom is sufficient for large churches, being down the aisle. Picture Profiles like the Z5U which are preset pretty well. It also has a 4K upgrade for future use, so it will project forward many years before becoming dated, although I admit it will likely become my B-cam when I dive more into 4K.


The only drawback I've found it the zoom/focus ring on the lens is shared, so there's a button you push to switch between the two. Takes some getting used to and isn't ideal for run & gun. Also the XLR input cannot be split, so I can't do Channel 1 XLR, Channel 2 on camera mic. I liked shooting that way just as a precaution. Now tho, I just use a Zoom H1 as more my backup audio, plus my B cam.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

David that is very helpful thank you. I did briefly look at that camera. When you mention the XLR can't split is that only the case when using the on camera? I'd most likely look to use a short shotgun as my "On camera" and then for ceremonies I run a wireless lav, right now on the Z7 that gives me one channel dedicated to the shotgun and one dedicated to the wireless lav.

Thanks again I appreciate the insight and will add that to my list. Right now on the Z7 I don't go above 9DB so hearing that 18 is possible is great.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

If you don't need xlr then the sony ax100 is also a very good option, basically a x70 but without xlr and less options to tweak the image.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Mike, I've thought about that but never did use it. I'll check but I'm pretty sure it would take Input 1, Input 2. I actually use the shotgun which came with my Z5 for most non-important stuff, prep, photos etc.. But never used it with the wireless in that way. Maybe my first wedding with it. I guess I've just gotten used to it and went all in with it and the Zoom. I tend to shoot down the aisle and get a hissing noise in most churches.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

One important feature to consider, given I assume you're running just the 1 camera for Ceremonies, is dual SD card slots. Though HDV tape can have their issues, they're less likely to just stop recording due to file corruption, system crash or just general error. Whilst rare, I've had a few bad occasions even shooting HD where the camera stopped recording. Of course, running multiple cameras, though annoying, it's not as serious as if I was running just the 1. I would take dual recording as an essential if filming with just the 1 camera.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

XLR is most certainly a must, but thanks Noa. Steve - That is where my issue is right now, I typically will run tape as well as CF card but the card is on "add on" and I like the idea of upgrading to a camera that is fully dedicated to solid state recording (SD or CF) and of course dual recording is a great option for media redundancy. Looking at my upcoming jobs I am going to stick with my current combo and see if anything new comes about in the upcoming months and where I am money wise.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Why is XLR so important to you? It's only of use if you have long cable runs.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Hi Nigel

If you do corporate events and such it's normal from the audio desk to give you an XLR plug rather than anything else (industry standard maybe???) Because I use cams in conjunction with a mixer under the camera it came with XLR inputs so I had to actually change my receiver cables to XLR end plugs but for normal use a standard 3.5mm input works .. I think people look for XLR on cameras because it gives them two indivual channels as opposed to cameras with 3.5mm which are often just a stereo jack so you cannot adjust individual levels?

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

From what I understand Mike needs it for weddings and then it's not so practical to run a long cable from the DJ's mixer to a camera depending on where you have to position that. Otherwise if you want to use a professional shotgun mike then a xlr connection is preferable or it has it's advantages connecting a wireless receiver to a xlr input but other then that I don't see any other use for a xlr connection at weddings.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

I just wanted to confirm that Mike really did need XLR inputs. There is often a misconception that because XLR inputs appear on professional cameras that somehow they are better quality than a 3.5mm jack. The only benefit of XLR is to allow long cable runs without interference. If the camera doesn't have XLR but the mic does then a simple adaptor is all that is required. There will be no deterioration in audio quality.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

It's not only to allow long cable runs, it's also impossible to pull a xlr cable out of it's socket + camera's with xlr usually have a better onboard audio quality and easier ways to adjust volume or ways to switch between line and mic level or supply a mike with 48v and that all right out of the box. The sound quality that I can get out of my jvc ls300 with my shotgun mike is a lot higher then I am able to get out of my gh4.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

XLR- phantom power, locking connector (I have indeed had my 3.5mm plug from my sennheiser pack pull out of my recorder before), additionally for ceremonies (or other event coverage or shoots where I use my wireless set) I want a quality ambient sound track, for reactions, more realistic sound, and just incase the wireless should sh*t the bed. I don't believe I've ever seen a camera with multiple 3.5mm inputs.

If all I could buy was a full size shoulder cam with XLR's yes, maybe it'd be worth downgrading to just having 3.5mm jack onboard but the reality the weight and size of conventional video cameras have come WAY down while the features have stayed rather steady.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

XLRs look professional and are always on pro cameras, but they are not always best. I have had a number of past occasions where an XLR cable has been tripped over and pulled the cable straight out of the connector, a disaster in the middle of a shoot. I have also had mini Jack leads tripped over which has resulted in the plug being pulled out of the socket and just needing plugging back in again.

XLRs are a mono connection, so you need two for stereo or twin channel input. Mini jacks on cameras are usually stereo, so feed to two channels anyway so you don't need two. Of course most cameras with XLR inputs have separate channel volume controls, but there is no reason why a stereo mini Jack socket shouldn't be connected to a small camera mounted mixer which has individual level controls to each of the channels, routing to left or right channels as required. I believe Chris Harding uses exactly that on his Panasonic setup.

Roger

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

If someone trips over your xlr cable means you do it wrong, that's why you use gaffer tape to secure any loose ends, if you have it dangling loose over the ground and someone falls over it, it's your fault. In case of a shotgun mike connected to the camera, no-one can ever trip over that because of the very short length, I have my xlr cables custom made now to the exact size I need so it doesn't stick out anywhere and if you want to prevent the risk completely then use a wireless system.

A xlr connection can also be stereo using a 5pin xlr and a stereo mike. I just split my monochannels which is easy in Edius so I get sound left and right of the speaker. Any xlr box mounted on a bridge camera or dslr will not sound as clean and clear as a videocamera with xlr build right in, that was my experience with my gh4 at least, that has nothing to do with the connector but the quality of the internal audio of the camera. I have tried to connect a wireless receiver to my tascam dr60 which can send a direct feed to my gh4 and record simultaneously to the dr60. The sound recorded by the gh4 was usable but the recording on the tascam was a lot clearer and cleaner, I could use the dr60 recording but then I end up syncing in post what I don't have to do with a camera that has xlr build in. My ls300 for instance has a very clean and clear sound through any good quality mikes I connect to it's xlr and sounds a lot better then what I can get out of my gh4 + a extra box under or on top of a dslr makes it only more difficult to handle it.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Having been a musician aswell for the past 50 years, I have used XLR cables on stage for decades Noa, and live gigs are awash with cables across the stage. Anyone who has worked on live music gigs for a while and hasn't had experience of cables being accidentally ripped out is very lucky or mistaken. I wasn't being specific about video, just XLR connectors.

Roger

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

You are talking about live gigs that are awash with cables across the stage and we are talking about weddings here where you have one cameraguy that has a 20cm long xlr cable between his shotgun mike and camera :)
Mike has been clear he wants a camera with a xlr connection so not sure why you want to convince him to use a camera that only has a minijack connection and then to add a separate box to secure his audioneeds?
Anyways, Mike, since the gy hm170/200 was on your list you might check out the jvc category on this forum, there was one user of the 170 who was not that pleased, not that this means all those models are bad but might be worth considering, here was that topic: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/jvc-4k-p...00-issues.html

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Hi Roger

Yep I use a Saramonic XLR adapter under the camera but sadly not as small as I would like it to be!! It basically doubles the size of the camera and doubles the weight as well but it is convenient and during a wedding it's easy to see your audio levels on the display. A smaller one would be nice so I could use it under the camera for handheld as well. Both my receivers that mount on the dedicated slots on the adapter had 3.5 to 3.5mm cables so I had to chop one end off and add an XLR plug.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Actually 1 of the reasons I am excited about the GH5 is that it has a new audio hotshoe attachment that adds I think 2 XLR inputs. With the GH4 there is no means of adjusting audio once recording, so this would be very useful and stop me having to rely on the Zoom as a go between whenever I'm conducting Interviews with my wireless mics. I'm planning to add a 2nd wireless mic system for those cases where there are either 2 speakers at a conference or 2 Best Men doing a Speech. Being able to easily adjust audio on the go is I feel quite essential for any camera system. A lot of cameras with only 3.5 input don't seem to have comparative controls.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

I have a couple of the cheap Boya wireless mics which I have been delighted with. The receiver has a headphone monitor socket which is lacking on my FZ1000s and also an output level control to adjust the level going into the camera. The receiver sits comfortably in the hotshot and is very easy to control the volume with a simple rocker switch. As the camera has input level meters showing, control is straight forward.

Roger

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

The other thing you have to think about is that a 3.5mm input works fine for mics and receivers BUT if you do stage events the sound desk will not only give you an XLR feed but it's also line output and most "real video cameras" have XLR plus you can switch to mic or line input ...that's why I have the box under my main camera so I can accept feeds that are given to me and it's simple to switch to line or mic. Also if you use a shotgun XLR mic is has phantom power which an XLR bank will provide easily ... I have lost count the number of times I have forgotten to switch the mic on before I start!! With XLR and a phantom powered mic you don't have this problem. Small things maybe but sometimes make a big difference!!

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Sorry for the delay in responding but it does work this way. There's an "Input 1" option at the front of the XLR box, which offers you to put it to Input 1&2 (ie same mic for both lines), or just put it it Input 1 only. So you can keep your shotgun in Input 1, then, you plug the wireless mic into Input 2 and viola.

Re: Need to upgrade camcorder in kit
 

Thanks David