Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I see Fuji have stepped up with 10 bit 4K 60p. Albeit 4:2:0. First Nikon, then Canon, now Fuji and soon Panasonic's assuming it is what the rumours say it is. Have we ever had such a large group of announcements over mirrorless cameras in such a small space of time before?

And we still yet to see the BMP4K in the stores. In fact it may well be beaten to shops by the cameras only recently announced. Not sure if that's a good thing really. We are getting footage but it's thunder is stolen by these new cameras. That said, I'm not cancelling my order. It's cheap for what it is and a bargain with the software. Be nice if I got it in time for my Birthday in October. But I'm not holding my breath. :)

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

With how affordable the Atomos Ninja V is, then the competition is heating up for the BMPCC4K with all these new cameras from Fuji and Nikon offering 10bit external as well

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I am waiting for the Atomos Ninja V so that I can record from my GH5 and GH5S UHD 60P 10bit.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

The Fuji X-T3 is APS-C not FF.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I know. I was more talking about the large number of mirrorless announcements in recent weeks. Besides Canon isn't technically fullframe either if you're shooting 4K. :)

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

They're not even APS-C!

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

If you use up the usb-c port for storage then you cannot use it for portable power - you can power the camera via the usb-c slot with a small power pack - so with CFast cards and small attachable power pack you can shoot RAW video for hours.

This camera is designed for handheld use, without a rig (does not mean you cannot use a rig for better video in some cases). A 2.5" SSD slot would make the camera bigger. Small is the reason they keep "pocket" in the name (though it certainly is not pocketable). I like the design decisions.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Oh, that's a bummer!

There is absolutely no other way to power the camera apart from batteries when the USB-c port is in use for recording? Would we be able to use a fake battery connected to a power supply as is the case on the GH5?

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Does it have sensor stabilisation?

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

No. So not really a handheld camera. Except you can carry it by hand and not mount on a shoulder. But really, it needs a tripod. Gimbal and other accessories to bring it to life. Latest rumours have it ready by the 5th October for delivery. It has to be out soon even if to a handful of early buyers. All this press they're engaging would seem silly if no one has the camera by the end of the year.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Then also the fact it is missing a viewfinder makes it even less suitable for handheld shooting, that means you have to hold the camera in front of you instead of against your eye and you"ll loose another point of contact to stabilize. You can also forget to shoot with unstabilised lenses.
This is a tripod camera or one to put on a shoulder rig.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Perhaps it is only me but I find my footage more stable when I hold the camera in front of me and watch the screen.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

No matter how you handhold the camera, if there is no lens or sensor stabilisation it results in unusable footage, unless you are ok with the jitter or you like the look of post stabilisation.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

The BMPCC4K has a locking DC connector for external 12vDC power supply.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Great, then as far as I am concerned there is no issue in using the USB-c connector.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Yes, but for years you and others shot handheld with optically-stabilized lenses only. IBIS for *video-capable* ILC cameras is relatively new. There are plenty of MFT lenses with stabilization built in. So it is nonsense you cannot use the camera handheld.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Sure, if you are happy with a rigged up camera on sticks - a 12v power supply is big and heavy. The point, again, is that this camera is *in (large) part* specifically designed for handheld or gimbal use, so big attachments defeat one of its major purposes. You can mount a small usb battery pack (+CFfast) or a small usb ssd drive (and replace small batteries a lot) and still carry it around to shoot.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Read my post again, I was refering to lenses with no stabilisation and in that case it's not possible to shoot handheld without post stabilisation.
I and others did shoot with a very limited lens choice handheld in the past, but now I can shoot handheld with my gh5 with every lens I have which is a huge difference.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

But only 2 are faster than f2.8 and weddings are lots of low light situations.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

It was a constant frustration of mine that I could not use all my primes handheld so that same frustration will be present when using the pocketcam handheld as your lensselection will be limited; with the gh5 it doesn't matter what lens you use, every lens makes handheld shooting possible.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Read my post again, and be less defensive (I am defensive when someone implies I cannot comprehend a post). Duh, I know you know that handheld without any stabilization at all is impossible for good video, and I agreed (read my post again, and again). That I said it is nonsense that you cannot use the Pocket PC 4K handheld is not an implication that you believe that - it is a statement aimed at those who deny it is designed to be handheld (which a number of people have asserted as they dress up the camera with heavy attachments).

So, it really comes down to a more limited lens choice, not inability to use the camera handheld. This is exactly the same as for the GH5s. And we learned that IBIS itself has disadvantages.

I agree that the GH5 is better for handheld use because of greater lens choice (and that is a big deal), if one likes the baked-in look from the camera, and the crippled 4K 60P (so no HDR using that, for example). Trade-offs.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I did read your post and I don't see you agreeing on anything I said.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Well, I certainly read *all* the posts in this thread, and then I read 'em again, and I'm not quite sure where the disconnect is.

So let's agree to disagree, or disagree on whatever we've agreed upon, and move forward in a polite and cordial manner.

Thanks, everybody!

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I have the vLog upgrade, so no baked in look for me and technically HDR is possible in 50p 4K, though more potential for issues due to not being 10 bit. There's no perfect camera for every video job.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Of course if you use an Atomos external recorder with the GH5 ( S ) you can get ProRes, 10bit 4:2:2 50/60P using V-LogL or HLG . To record for an extended period of time the BM too will need external recording though nice in its case it is just a USB C SSD. It would be good if the GH5's could record using their USB C connector just like the BM. Maybe a firmware upgrade !!!

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

The recent announcement of a new Black magic RAW sounds promising and further extends the potential of this camera, should it be passed down to it and not just the URSA. I wasn't sure if it use this camera for RAW as I've heard the DNG files are a pig to edit. I planned to stick to Prices, but if this new RAW is included either on release or in upgrade, I can see me using it for some smaller jobs.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Yup, or just use a monopod / shoulder rig / easyrig / etc for quick and easy stabilisation of your shots, I've never owned a camera with IBIS and instead I do that.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

This just proves my point that the pocket cam is not a camera designed for handheld shooting, it can be for a very limited choice of lenses but even then not being able to look through a viewfinder and a lcd screen that doesn't move makes this a camera that is best used on sticks or any other kind of support.

All my real video camera's that I used in the past had stabilization build in, my vx2100, dvx100, xh-a1 and small handicams I used like the cx730, it was only when people decided to start shooting video on photocamera's that this so important feature was for a large part lost, my GH5 is my only camera so far that is giving me that freedom back of just handholding the camera with any lens I put on it, for some people this might not be a big deal but for me it is.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I like some of the features of the camera but BMPcc4K does not really suite my shoots. A lot of the time camera is way above my head on tripod. I can control the GH5 with Olympus power zoom lens completely with the Android app on my tablet. Full camera control and framing of the lens. I think the BMPcc4K fails on all these accounts. As far as I can find out it does not have an app and likely just iOS if it does. I like the RAW recording though to future proof more the full stage archive.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

The BMPCC4K is still a massively more user friendly camera to use than what I started out doing weddings with: a Panasonic GH1. And even that I found to be just fine.

But more importantly: the BMPCC4K will give a much much nicer image!

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Even if you factor out the lack of IBIS, the lack of flip screen, poor battery life, larger file sizes and possible issues - have we forgotten the infamous black sun - will make this camera less ideal for run n gun work. Which is what most Weddings tend to be. I capture between 350gbs and 800gbs per Weddding as it is.

Given the larger file sizes, I see this for small promo work, music videos and even documentaries and indie movies. Or as a b camera for the URSA. As I replacement to my very useful and versatile GH5, it's a definite NO.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Shoot BMD's new braw format, or ProRes LT

The data rates would hardly be much more unreasonable than you'd be getting with the best out of your GH5

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Best out of GH5 and that's 400mbps. I don't shoot that for Weddings. Shooting 150mbps every Wedding and I've got so many hard drives already, I'm almost out of letters to assign them to. :). I'm creating 2 hour videos for my Weddings, 80 a year. It'll be madness to shoot RAW with that number.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I did bump into an assistant Photographer who boasted he filmed Weddings on a Red camera with enormous file sizes. I assume he was targetting the Highlights only customers. Those who feel a Wedding Video is 5 minutes long. With that sort of output, RAW becomes viable. But unless you're charging 3k for your Weddings, it's not sustainable and probably why this guy scratches a living working as an assistant to a Professional Photographer.

I'm sure there'll be those who will find a way to work the Pocket 4K for Weddings. Some have worked phones, 16mm cameras, Canon cameras and others with some major restrictions, so the Pocket 4K is no different. However the original Pocket became quite famous for its wonderful image and yet those who purchased it rarely seemed to use it or even talk much about it after a few months of use. You have to wonder why?

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Yeah I have a friend who uses 2x REDs for weddings. Madness! As even worse, is a RED ONE :-o

Anyway, $3K is a pretty mainstream price for a wedding, so not unreasonable from that perspective


Of course not raw! I'd use ProRes LT with my BMPCC, a single card would last me all day long and more!

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

I use 128gb cards and go through 2 for most Weddings. Occasionally 1 and a bit for smaller Weddings and 2 and a bit cards for big Weddings. I'm not sure what the file size is for the Pocket 4K. They've given numbers but I'd rather know number of minutes I get per 128gb card.

The lack of IBIS and no flip screen limits it anyway. It can't be my main camera as I need the versatility. A gimbal camera if it can balance on my Ronin S maybe. However unlike the GH5 and GH5s which were roped into Weddings straight away, I'd be running tests and rests before committing to any shoot.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

The most important part of any weddingcamera is how fast you can change different settings, there are enough situations where you need to get a shot so you either have to rely on the camera all auto functionality (if that is any good) or change whitebalance, shutter, f-stop, iso or focus on the fly.

I never liked shooting on a dslr because I was used to shoot with actual videocamera's that had nd-filters build in, could do smooth zooms with controllable speeds, change f-stop without exposurejumps, had no recording limits, had build in stabilisation and had good auto-focus if needed, could punch into the screen while recording to check focus, had good audio and that all in one package without having to invest in anything else.

The gh5 is the first dslr I feel comfortable with to replace a "real" videocamera though it's far from perfect but it does have the necessary functionality to allow me to use it as a run and gun camera.

The 4K pocketcamera seems like it's way easier to operate then the original version but I don't see it as easy to operate or as versatile as the gh5, I"m sure it will be great with a 2 videographers shoot but not so much for solo shooters.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

It's been confirmed that the Pocket 4K can fit onto the Ronin S, so I may well have a use for it at Weddings. I could use a dedicated camera just for gimbal, leaving my GH5s which I currently use as tripod only. The 50p 4K is of better quality on the Pocket, so would work well. Except for AF performance, but then Pansonic is hardly a winner there either.

If the rumours about the Panasonic Fullframe are true, latest suggests both a budget and pro version both with IBIS, then next year's Wedding season could be much easier to film. Now if they can finally get AF right, all my problems will be sorted. Well those with my gear anyway.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Great comments! Nice to share with pros. We try different things, not just cameras, tripods, monopods, lights, gimbals, they don't all work out as expected. Even between monopods, it would be easy to lump them together as if they all work the same benefit but they don't. Same with anything. A mistake for me is trying too hard to make something work that I have this picture in my mind is ideal, but once in the field of battle the problems are revealed, have to learn and move on. Speed and readiness most important, and a certain minimum level of acceptance. For example, it's twilight, it's been bright, the clouds roll in and wind picks up just as the bridal procession begins. There's no time to fumble with ND filters. Before you've gotten to that point there is so much to do, mic'ing the groom, plugging into pa or soundboard, recording acoustic musicians, having lights staged for the grand entrance/toasts, being able to switch from outside to inside shots, remembering how you have set your camera presets, remaining situationally aware to be in position for the shots and not forgetting where you have to be at any moment.

For me, one of the keys is not to try and do too much and go into sensory overload, not try and combine too much complication. Make it as simple as possible. With so many great tools and options, it's easy to fall into traps, and fail to remember the most important thing is to keep a record button ready to press instantly.

Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings
 

Haha, every weddingvideographer that says they never had their camera in standby mode while they thought it was recording is either lying or about to shoot their very first wedding. :)

You gave a very accurate description about the issues we often face at weddings, this year especially my frustrations have been building up more then usual, I have a perfect picture in my head how I want to capture but there is always something not going as planned.

This is one reason why I use several cameras and audiorecorders to cover for things that go wrong but it adds a lot of complexity to my solo shoots, I had several photogs laugh when they saw my gearbag this year, "the man with the many small camera's" one photographer called me. :)
Like many videographers I too suffer from the gas syndrome thinking that every new piece of acquired gear will make my work look or sound better and sometimes it does but currently it becomes hard to keep track of all gear I use and I have lost some small accessories because of that, mainly while moving fast between locations, lenscaps in particular seem to want to escape my gearbag a lot. :)

As my backproblems are getting worse again I made a decision 2 weeks back to make a more radical change in my work and will start to do photography but am looking to see how I still can combine it with video but with a much lighter gearbag, my lumix camera(s) will continue to play an important role because of their ibis but I decided not to buy any new camera for video anymore, unless one of my current camera's would break down. I'm going to sell some of my videogear and keep only the essentials, I got myself a Sony A7III with 2 primes, a 35 and a 85mm and a flash last week which I am primarily going to use to take pictures, I know it shoots good video as well but for that my Panasonic cameras will be used.

That means I won't get the 4K pocketcam as I initially planned but it will stay interested to see what other users will do with it.