Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

If there is one organisation where I would not recommend buying music from then it is Songfreedom, I also found a known song in their library years ago, I believe it was 25 dollar for a lifetime use, couldn't believe it because it was a popular group, long story short, Songfreedom said "no worries, you can use whereever and whenever you want, our license covers everything" while Sabam, the Belgian Association of Authors said to me their license had no value and that I would be invoiced by Sabam for using that music which would be a lot more then 25 dollar.

When I confronted Songfreedom with this they gave me some idiotic reasoning that made no sense at all.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

I want to make a bet that youtube won't accept Songfreedoms license, they are crooks, if those songs are used on Vimeo you can be sure it will be a matter of time before they will find out and slap him with a DMCA claim.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

It is not up to YouTube, YouTube has nothing to do with it when you dispute the claim the communication is with the rights holder, not YouTube.

You'd better have a backup for your claim that Songfreedom "are crooks", it sounds defamatory to me.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

That is not what their written license conditions actually say.

When you license something you should read the conditions.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

You bet I have proof about them lying to me, I still have the entire email conversation, because you almost have to be a laywer to interpret the fine print on these licenses I contacted them directly, explained how I wanted to use that commercial song and asked if their license would cover me in that case. They said yes, I then contacted Sabam and they said no and if I would use that song I would be invoiced a second time by sabam but for a much higher amount.

When I showed Sabams answer to Songfreedom they gave me a answer that didn't make sense and which had nothing to do with my specific use so I'd rather sing my own songs then use anything from Songfreedom.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

How about your post that email? Perhaps other people might understand what their explanation is about.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Yes and it really didn't matter. Songfreedom themselves stated 'The artist is free to request ads if they so choose'. I guess, but wouldn't they do the same thing for a $.99 cent purchased song from Amazon?!

I mean, to me I tried to do the right thing. Its a layer of security and imho professionalism as I wasn't using a dumb Bruno Mars Uptown Funk & going hog wild with it. I also begin my trailers with a brief 'licensed by'. For $60, its worth it.

If my entire account gets shut down then things get bad as I have other semi needed videos on there. Maybe I should pull the weddings off & self host them. TBH I think I'm slowing down on weddings anyway & wouldn't mind if the website only keeps 3 or 4 up, at least for a while.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Just let it go guys. Noa, don't post the email. "You think they are crooks". Look, I agree with you, we all can. "You" think they are crooks. Doesn't mean Gary or Cary or me have too (personally I'm in the middle), so no need for the email. Plus, Sabam seems to be a Belgian rights company so thats an added layer of complexity vs an American using them.

Having said that, lets be real, they're not some basement run operation of kids selling a database of mp3's off their hard drive for $50 bucks off craigslist. Its a legit operation, I'm sure they have some legal counsel they work with and advises them. I'm sure they have some ties into the music rights industry and likely video hosting (Vimeo, youtube). So in that regard, they're legit. Fullproof? Prolly not, they could be a bit redundant or unnecesarry, sorta like Lifelock or undercleaning or whatever new car salesmen sell you. I mean, it's something, but maybe not 'worth it'.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

I couldn't even read Gary's reply as he has been on my blocked list for more then a year (and he knows about that) but when you quote him I unfortunately can see :) Probably he replies to me knowing I can't see it so it looks I can't prove it because I don't react.

No, I"m not going into that anymore, all I care about is what Sabam says because they are the only ones that can ruin my business if I don't comply, Sabam told me that what Songfreedom was telling me was not correct as Songfreedom said their license would cover me completely and that it was the only license I ever have to pay, I did explain in detail to Songfreedom under what conditions I was using that song so it was not that they didn't know in what country they lived. Even after I confronted them with Sabams reply they told some nonsense about the German Association of Authors and youtube which had nothing to do with my situation.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Except that's now how you originally described it.

Seems like you're heavily mis-remembering what the original conversation was like. You also seem like you don't understand the concept that you can license in one respect, and not be licensed in another, like using the basic license from PremiumBeat or Smartsound or something similar for a TV show broadcast on a national network.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

A member on this forum just send me Gary's reply, not sure why I feel the need to react but for the last time I will and then I"m out.

Gary was smart enough to leave a part of the conversation out so he can try to discredit me, the next part of that discussion he quoted was:

I also talked about this on 13 of Februari 2018 (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...ml#post1941316) and said this:

So the exact same thing I have been saying here so far, only in less words, I think we know by now when Gary gets involved in a discussion it derails in no time with Chris having to clean up the mess, only I"m am not going play his games anymore, bye, bye.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

What I quoted is what I believe illustrates the issue...that you thought “streaming rights” meant live-streaming, and you didn’t need that because you were just going to upload to YouTube.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

The same thing happend to someone else I know.

But its not random. They typically takedown videos after the copyright holder files a complaint. The problem is they can file a load of them in one go and Vimeo has a 3 strikes policy. And the holder could file 20 in one go. Thats an instaban.

Im writing a blog article on this as last year we switched to using licenced music from songfreedom. We were worried what our couples would say but the've all understood that if they want it online forever, they need to toe the line.

Also, with this new EU law being debated the chances are we could all see our librarys or accounts being hit.

Here's what I've figured out so far.

1) Just because YouTube let you, doesn't mean you won't be sued.
So, you uploaded to youtube, the copyright holder has agreed to let you use it but with ads (or no ads) and you think "Great, permission granted and it cost me 99p on the iTunes store". NOPE! While they choose to take a cut of your ad revenue they can still sue you! It is not permission to use the song.

2) Vimeo doesn't scan songs?
NOPE! They do, its just not as aggressive as YouTube. They scan them and it is reported to the copyright holder. They can then decide what to do about it.

3) But my country has a thing I can buy that lets me...
Doesn't matter! Thats for your country and youtube, vimeo and all the other streaming platforms operate globally. The internet is global. Most of these regional licences don't cover global streaming.

4) The PRS in the UK said I could
Yeah, this is a bit of a joke. I've spoken to them on a number of occasions. Each time with a different answer. Some say you can if you buy the PPL. Some say your small enough to go un announced. Some admitted they didn't know. The PRS also only control a small part of the music industry and thats for the UK. Again, internet is global and Sony Music Europe is not the same as Sony Music Americas and even if one gives you permission it doesn't mean the other will abide by it. This is why getting global streaming rights can be so damn expensive. PRS in the UK are not ready for the internet... Still.

The only safe bet is to use the likes of Songfreedom or the Music Bed who all have great selections. It can be expensive with it being around $50 per song from music bed or $60 per month for a Songfreedom subscription. But if we all do it and price ourselves accordingly then it's a non issue.

We're removing all our non licenced stuff and moving to a 100% licenced library so when this EU article 13 thing kicks in or Vimeo goes on a mass purge we can still be operating while everyone else disappears from the internet.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Care to provide some evidence for that? In the UK (& other jurisdictions) the courts would interpret acceptance of payment for use instead of requesting a take down as implicitly granting permission for use.

BTW AFAIK nobody has ever been sued in any country for posting a wedding video containing unlicensed copyright music on YouTube.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Are you a practicing lawyer?

Then you don't know very much about this issue, because Joe Simon was literally sued for $150,000.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

No but lawyers don't have a monopoly on understanding of the law. When the rights owner accepts payment this legitimises the infringing use just as you don't commit theft if you take an item & the owner accepts your proffered payment.

Evidently I know more about the issue than you do. Joe Simon was not sued he was threatened by a lawyer & decided it was prudent to settle before it ever reached a court. The sum asked for was $150K but the sum actually paid was a "five figure sum". We don't know exactly how much as one of the conditions of the deal was that Joe Simon was not allowed to discuss the details. The case was also wholly exceptional as it was the wedding of a sports celebrity & the video went viral & involved a leading wedding videographer charging large fees.

I stand by my statement that AFAIK nobody has ever been sued for using unlicensed music on a wedding video.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

https://daredreamermag.com/2011/12/0...t-videography/

Joe Simon sued. I do believe Dave Robin (rest his soul) was also sued. With Dave he was allowed to keep his video online, the label took their ad revenue but he was still sent that lovely letter.

We all like to think "It won't happen to me" or "I'll get a notice first" but as Joe can testify you can very well just get that letter sent to your inbox demanding money.

What is more likely to happen is whats happened to poor James and Shoot it Yourself where you get a rapid fire list of breaches and loose your account. Now tell me, how damaging would that be to you? No more background web videos, no portfolio, no more online client vids?

And how many are looking to move to all digital delivery? What happens if that only digital copy goes offline? Move to another platform. How long will that last.

The days of letting the clients have any music they like is gone. It's no longer a selling point and even if you host it on your own web host that will come to an end. This EU Article 13 law makes all platforms liable for what gets uploaded and trying to avoid this with self hosting or other methods is just admitting to the fact were all doing something we shouldn't.

If you pitch it right to your clients its a non issue. It really is. Even if you pushed your services as letting the client choose their music you can re-spin it as a good thing.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

I'll take their advice over yours any day. They pay their bills by their "understanding of the law" and you don't, and you're probably not as savvy in law as you think you are, i.e. Dunning–Kruger.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Nobody got sued. Be realistic. In all this time one videographer got a nasty letter from a lawyer & one other may have had to give up the ad revenue. I don't have a dog in this fight any more but honestly it's ridiculous scaremongering to believe that anyone is going to get sued.

Having Vimeo delete your account is far more of a danger but as Vimeo offers little other than a nice customisable player & given their current attack on their customers they aren't going to stay in business much longer you shouldn't be hosting on Vimeo anyway.

The issue isn't just with deliberately incorporating an unlicensed piece of music as the soundtrack it's also any incidental or background music that could be infringing which until a couple of years ago included anyone singing "Happy Birthday To You"

If you really are worried then it's a simple matter to self host encrypted files.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

We have already established that I know more about the Joe Simon case than you & I don't need to indulge in gratuitous insults.

Nobody has ever been sued for using unlicensed music in a wedding video. What advice would a lawyer give? While in theory you could be sued for using unlicensed music in practice it has never happened so chances are very remote that it's ever going to happen although past performance is no indicator of future results.

If the rights holder accepts payment for the use of the copyright material on YouTube then they cannot pursue for any infringement as they just permitted that use. The rights holder has the option of accepting money or issuing a DMCA takedown. Accepting money for use on YouTube also diminishes potential damages that could be claimed for any other online use as the payment by YouTube is very small.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

This is what you usually get when there is copyrighted material found:

---------------
You have 2 copyright claims on your video.

VIEWING RESTRICTIONS
Unavailable on some devices
MONETIZATION
Can't monetize video
If you agree with these conditions, you don't have to do anything.
--------------

Win-win situation, you can post your video and the right holder can monetize!

I would say that the highest probability of getting sued is if you self-host copyrighted material because unlike YouTube your have no contracts with the rights holders. Encrypting will make the case harder because the right holder could argue you intentionally tried to circumvent detection.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

In Simon’s case, to clearly settle for a helluva lot more than a Songfreedom license would cost, despite Noa’s ignorant assertion that they are nothing more than “crooks”.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

They have some beautiful music. The question is, will YouTube flag the videos for possible infringement? In other words, I have used SmartSound licensed music in the past, it gets flagged, I have to challenge the notice which I always win, but until the copyright holder withdraws the notice, it is played under appeal. Is it that way with artlist.io as well?

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Yes, it is the way with all of them. I've had one video flagged on YouTube (I primarily use Vimeo), which wasn't even close to being the same track (a Digital Juice music track was flagged as being a track from a spoken word Christmas album), and it was the same process.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

This is normal.

YouTube obviously cannot know if an individual channel owner has a license, it just 'Content ID's' it, there is no problem. There would be a problem if your dispute is rejected. But the whole dispute, appeal procedure is not between you and YouTube, it is between you and the rights holder. YouTube only does the content id check which it must legally do.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

In my case any SmartSound music is ALWAYS flagged by YouTube and it's always "Getty Images" who make the claim ...if you look on SmartSound's website they have this advice for users on both Vimeo and YouTube
https://www.smartsound.com/forum/ind...ight-violation

However the really annoying thing is that the outcome is always in your favour if you contest the claim BUT that takes 30 days or more and during the 30 days is when most brides want to watch their wedding highlights!! During that period too.. various countries are excluded (mainly Germany) and even worse mobile/cell phones will not load the video during the "contested period" so most brides will try and watch on portable devices only to be disappointed! Considering the cost of Audio Pallets (some of mine were $99.00) it's really not worth even trying to use them.

Simple solution??? upload with no music and it won't get flagged. Poor alternative as most brides like to walk down the aisle to Ed Sheeran but there really is no alternative!! Even the Wedding March nowdays gets flagged as does "Happy Birthday"

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

I don't think viewpoints like this are entirely accurate, and why we shouldn't be claiming to know copyright laws & practices. For instance, I doubt you can create an online commercial for a small local business, and use a Lady Gaga or Bruno Mars song in it.

Youtube likely has 'terms and agreements', deep within it are clauses and loopholes. Of which could be video's not intended to brand or promote ones business, which, in a way, wedding trailers and other demo videos could be perceived as. It was a long time ago, but remember the videographer who shot Tony Romo's wedding like 10 years ago, and used a Coldplay song. It went viral and he was sued.


Things like that. Sure you can create a video with your 4 year old daughter using a Taylor Swift song, but when you dabble in and venture into 'business promotion', I think Youtubes terms and copyright licensing likely changes. Just try not to speak in absolutes.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Please don't keep perpetuating this myth. As I mentioned in earlier replies Joe Simon did not get sued. He received a nasty letter from a lawyer. It never went anywhere near a court. He though it prudent to settle for a "five figure sum".

Get a sense of proportion. The Joe Simon case was wholly exceptional. In all the years of YouTube no wedding videographer has ever been sued for using unlicensed music on a wedding video.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Which is why you shouldn't be offering legal advice, not being a lawyer or anything. Being sued does not automatically mean you go to court. Joe Simon settled. That's hard to do if you aren't sued.

Besides, in his own words, "I can’t discuss the details of the suit, but it is real. I did have a video that went viral, we had used a very popular song on it, someone saw it and brought it to the attention of the labels legal team and from there they came after us. Getting that letter in my inbox and as a fax was super scary. You always hear “they’ll just send you a cease and desist letter and you take it down” and I always thought that would be true. But the letter that came through and they wanted a lot of money for damages,it the tune of $150,000 for one song. If that didn’t scare you straight I don’t know what would. I spent the next month or so going back in forth with the label to reach a settlement, it was a huge stress on my business and my life and I would never wish this on anyone else. I can’t say what we settle for but it looked like this $XX,XXX , which is a LOT of money for a small business."

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Joe Simon got what we in the UK would call a Letter Before Claim which said if you don't pay up we will take you to court. Whether he would have been taken to court or not is pure conjecture as he decided to settle for a fraction of the $150K demanded.

It's clutching at straws to cite this one instance of a wedding videographer receiving a LBC for using unlicensed music in a wedding video as meaning that it's a real risk for other wedding videographers. Where are all the other cases? If the record labels & rights holders are so keen to sue why aren't they issuing DMCA takedowns for all those thousands of other wedding videos on YouTube?

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Joe Simon doesn't live in the U.K., Nigel.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

On the Wedding Film Academy Facebook group, there were some other recent accounts of big time, long running wedding film makers having their vimeo accounts deleted for the same. Thousands of videos gone and it's only just getting started it seems.

Online is quickly not becoming a way to share videos with clients.... at least with Vimeo.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

No shit Sherlock! WTF does that have to do with the price of fish?

In the UK an LBC is also sometimes referred to as a "Letter Before Action" or LBA I wasn't sure of the equivalent US term but some Googling leads me believe it to be a "demand letter" or "letter of demand". In any case it's a letter from a lawyer demanding money & threatening legal action if the recipient doesn't settle. Whatever you call it this is NOT a court claim it's threatening court if the recipient doesn't settle but of course it's often a load of bluff & bluster that will either never be taken to court or would not succeed if a court case were initiated.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Your law degree from Google Law is worthless and your opinions on legal matters should be dismissed with extreme prejudice.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

'Being sued' is a general expression used to define any claim for damages regardless of court action. However it's just that, an expression. A lawsuit, ie legally being sued requires something to be filed with a Court of Law. Unless done in this singular instance of a Videographer being pursued for money in relations to copyright music, then legally he was not being sued.

However whether it's sued or not, makes no difference to the discussion. The guy got caught out and had to pay up regardless of the legal term for the claim.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

He is also in all the years of YouTube & online videos in general the only known instance of somebody being chased for use of unlicensed music on a wedding video.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Agreed. I think the music industry has more to worry about buyers passing their music onto others. Copying say my favourite album as mp3 to my Brother so he can avoid paying for it himself affects the artist financially in a way sticking a bit of music on my video ever does.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

Now that the music industry has pretty much given up on CDs apart from special box sets they should be more worried about apps that allow you to rip the album from your free Spotify account at 10X real time. Then you can give it to your brother & neither of you paid for it.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

The World is dominated by money. As are most motivations. Why don't most Wedding Videographers get law suits, it's because we are not worth much money. The moment a video goes viral it's assumed it's worth some money and if the artist or those who represent them, whose music is used, feels he or she isn't getting their share, they make a claim. Its that simple.

I have no problem with anyone using my video as long as I am registered as it's owner. Why, because it could potentially bring me money. If I use copyright music in my videos, unless it is felt it's bringing in more money to me than to the artist who made the music, no one has a problem with it. Why, because any publicity is good. If my videos get used, it can help my Business. Same goes for music. A Marryoke with Ed Sheeran promotes Ed Sheehan. Promotion is good. It sells. As long as it doesn't go viral and benefits me more than Ed Sheeran, he or his representative won't care. Hence why most Videographers are spared law suits. It's more damaging than any benefit from a claim can bring.

Could I pay xxxxx amount of money, no. So I'm not worth targeting and not worth the hassle or even the potential negative publicity such a claim could lead to. Only beurocratic organisations would seek damages in such cases, simply to justifuly their existence.
I could still get banned from Vimeo or blocked on YouTube. So copyright does affect me. But not for possible lawsuits by the music industry, who cream a small share from advertising and if they don't like the deal, they simply don't allow it.

The World is governed and shaped by those whose motivational reasons to do things are often personal and petty, copyright included. And if you feel that's silly, look at any political initiative, be it Brexit or Trumps laws. Few of us see or respect the bigger picture in these matters. We look out for ourselves, nothing more.

Even what is morally right is often just done as an excuse to make us feel better about ourselves or our lives a little easier.

Re: Vimeo shut down my account
 

In the 1920s when radio stations started playing music the record companies bleated that it would put them out of business because if people could have music for free on the radio why would they ever buy records? Eventually a way of delivering payment for radio plays was negotiated. The record companies also realised that plays on the radio were a great way of promoting the sale of records.