Not Posting Clips For a While
Hey Guys,
I have to be honest. I thought that I was doing a cool thing by introducing myself and sharing not only one clip but three of them. The idea was to spark a discussion about how our clients weddings and song choices can afford us an opportunity to break out of the box. How we can bend (and even break) a few rules as long as we keep the destination in sight. I would have loved to have had a debate or discussion on that. Instead what resulted was a debate (fought many times over) about use of copyrighted music. It was also implied that I was flagrant, arrogant and unprofessional for using copyrighted materials. This turn of events came as a surprise to me since I've seen many clips posted by videographers who also use copyrighted works and the issue never came up. In fact Glen posted a clip of his own around the same time where a poster from my thread calling me unprofessional turns around and praises his clip (which was awesome by the way) without mentioning his use of the "Kill Bill" soundtrack. I'm just asking for a little consistency here. I want to thank Glen for inviting me on this forum and I look forward to helping out whenever I can on various issues. As for clip posting, I was planning on going "silent" after this anyway. The responses to my introductory post only confirms to me that's the right decision to make. Between this board and another one I frequent, there's about 5 clips out there and I think that's enough exposure for now. I just had a run of unique weddings and wanted to share. If I feel the urge to share again, I'll just read my introductory thread again and that should solve things :). Not mad, just disappointed. Chris Watson |
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Again Chris, you've got lot's of experience to share - please keep doing it. |
I have to ask, how would you feel if I downloaded your clip, loaded it into an NLE and stripped off your name and added my own, then sent it out as a part of my reel to seek work? Would that be acceptable to you if I did a very very good job of it?
We should be sharing information about how to become better creative professionals, not how to be better at doing something we shouldn't do in the first place. |
Don't Ask Don't Tell
In order to avoid these uncomfortable situations I think we should adopt the US military's stance on homosexuals and that being Don't Ask Don't Tell.
We'll all assume that each clip has the proper copyrights and let it go at that....... |
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I encourage you to start a thread of your own about this issue. I would gladly take part in it as well as others who have no doubt contributed to other copyright debates. Hijacking a thread is considered rude and a subject as important as this deserves its own topic anyway. CW PS: The way I dealt with said thief was I posted his URL on VU, encouraged people to visit his site, and told them to download any clips they see on there multiple times. That was fun. |
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If you truly live by this than you never go over the posted speed limit on the highway even if your late to work. In the theme of an analogy that is something most people do as well. Does it make it legal, no....safe, absolutely not. However taking on a rather aggressive opinion about the issue doesn't solve anything. Videographers know the laws just like the motorists on the highway. If they decide to break them it's on them and not really necessary for you to provide an inclusive brow-beating. Also you hinted toward the fact that Event Videographers use of copywritten music is the reason (or at least a big contributing factor) for the lack of respect we get in the industry as a whole. I couldn't disagree more. I feel that is caused by: 1) Lack of education on the bride/clients part as to what modern wedding videography is and 2) The thousands of hacks that litter the industry bringing us down as a whole. Undercharging and/or producing boring uninspired videography all the while carrying the monicer "professional" videographer. Steve I don't want to single you out beings other contributed to the other thread who share your stance. I respect your stance on the issue- however I respectfully disagree with the analogy and some statements you made. |
Chris,
Keep posting the clips, I like them as do many others. It's a forum so people will always have opinions and disagreements. Even as this thread includes no video with any type of music the debate still lingers on. While I can't say either the majority or minorty use commericial copyrighted music it's a personal decision based on experience, knowledge and well just some fun risk taking action. I take the risks, my client likes the risks and would I be willing to go to court. Well..I would have too, but that is besides the point. I still would willingly go.. I am confident in loop holes..:) Actually I am confident in my ability to articulate my actions and have no problem telling the truth. Sure, it's illegal but so are so many other things. How about the people that insert the DVD logo on their wedding case designs. Looks official and professional.. It's illegal. Your not licensed to use the LOGO. So I'm sure if you had a company of 1000 videographers producing 500 wedding videos a month and making a windfall of money it wouldn't be long till the issue is addressed..:) I'm guilty as well since I have no replied to said debate.. As you can see it's clearly not you posting clips that starts debates. |
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One of the great tragedies of business in our day is the notion that what is right is what you can get away with and if you haven't been sued and lost, it's okay. |
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I'm so sorry you were greeted with this type of reception. This is why I no longer post clips on DVInfo.net I hope you stick around as your talent and knowledge can be helpful to many videographers. Trisha & I look forward to seeing you next month down in Orlando at the 4EVER Convention. http://4evergroup.org/conventionandtradeshow.html |
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As you are obviously so concerned with following all of the rules, perhaps you should reread the forum rules yourself and try and practice a little more discretion. Perhaps next time you feel the urge to discuss an issue so passionately, you could start a separate thread and refrain from using members as specific examples. I think it can safely be said that the majority of members here would prefer to have others share their work and be inspired, even if that means living without your very insightful and well-timed criticisms. Chris, I would like to echo what has already been said. Thanks for sharing your work and perhaps you will try again down the road. It really is a huge benefit to the majority of users. |
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The thing that upset me is that I freely shared my work on a forum when I really didn't have to. I could have kept my techniques and "secrets" all to myself and my clients. That's what alot of leading videographers do in our industry and rightfully so. When's the last time you saw a clip from the VonLankens or Loi Bahn or Joel Peregrine? To me when someone posts a clip, whether he or she is a begginer or industry leader, I feel priveliged that they want to share their talent or ask for advice. That's good for us all and should be appreciated and respected. Instead, I got a very different reception. One that I felt was unwarranted and disrespectful. We have differences of opinion on copyright issues and I think we both want the same thing in the end. If you want to dioscuss this, then start a thread of your own. You'll have plenty of responses I'm sure but have respect for those willing to share their way of doing things with the greater videography community. CW |
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A lofty goal if not fantasy. I think the copyright holders need to give up on it (as well as DRM) and throw in the towel because this just ain't gonna happen. Besides, I find it hard to believe the videography industry is to blame for stiffling music sales. I don't have a solution for the MP3 downloaders but I know most videographers wouldn't mind paying for an affordable synch license. Until then, I will continue to buy the music and include it with my edits. |
I did a few weddings back in the day but I quit for these very reasons. It has nothing to do with copyright music, it has to do with the fact that you are better than them and they dont like that. Trust me, if you posted some lame clips the stink wouldnt be as bad.
The wedding business in general is pretty nasty. I know there are some GREAT guys who do fabulous work but there are also a lot of jealous hacks... ash =o) |
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I find your reactions and those others who have expressed similar opinions to be very disconcerting to say the least. In truth I would have expected the majority opinion to be 180 degrees opposite. Perhaps you can explain to me why you seem to find business practices that are both illegal and harmful to the profession and to other artists to be examples of the way people ought to act, practices that are to be applauded, encouraged, and rewarded? Do you similarly hold software and movie pirates to be cultural heros to be applauded when it happens that they are very very good at what they do? Or should we have a moral compass in our business life that is guided by a higher standard than expediency? |
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While your intentions may be morally guided, you also have to consider the net effect of your actions. Those who will no longer share clips have not changed there practices because of you, they are simply not sharing them. You have not made things better, or more legal, you have simply tainted something that is an excellent resource ofr many of us. There are much better tactics to present your point of view, perhaps you could consider some of those next time. |
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Steve,
Let it go. |
Get real... quit acting like it is the same to put a minute of a song in a one-off wedding montage as it is to bootleg DVDs and sell them on the streets of Hong Kong as originals. I have recently completed a feature doc that has many famous songwriters, most I became friends with. I cant imagine ANY of them having a legal issue with someone putting a song on a wedding DVD or sharing a clip on a website.
The fact is, that more artists are taking back their own publishing in an effort to ENCOURAGE this kind of use and exposure. In the next 10 years you will see many artists making their new songs and catalog available, either for free or for a small standard fee with NO red tape, for independent film makers and videographers. ash =o) |
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I think it's great that some artists are making their work freely available and I heartily endorse those who choose to set up new and reasonable licensing arrangements. But in that case it is the artist and copyright owners that are choosing to do that. You simply cannot ethically justify someone coming along and simply taking the work from them whether the artist wants them to use it or not. It is for them to initiate the process and give, not for us to take without permission until we get caught. Just because someone feels that artists *should* give away their work doesn't justify taking it. There's a boatload of music available free or at very affordable licensing right now. What is wrong with restricting oneself to using the work of the artists who are presently making their work available under the arrangements you suggest or using buy-out and needle drop libraries, creating one's own music with software such as Acid, or collaborating with a musician to develop your own? The appeal of using popular and classic music is the fact that is popular and classic and that's why people want to use it. It's unlikely a tune as popular as "Theme from Titanic" will ever be included in the no-fee or low-fee catalogs such as you see on the horizon any more than you'll find it in a buy-out library today. But if artistic merit is the criteria, I'm sure there are hundreds of songs available at affordable prices that are musically of as good ln quality or better without the need to wait for new licensing models to evolve - why not use them? If many of the famous songwriters in your documentary have no problem with someone using their work in a wedding video, how about simply obtaining a license from them and being legal about it? If they truly are willing and they haven't yet sold their rights, it could be accomplished in matter of moments for the effort of a couple of emails. Think you can't do quality wedding video without using popular music? Take a look at the sample clips on San Francisco's Big Pookiehead Productions website. Speaking of famous songwriters and performers, our own forum here has several Grammy and Emmy winners participating. Pop up into the audio forum and ask Doug Spotted Eagle or Ty Ford how they'd feel about you using using some of their work in your next wedding video. |
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Easy.. It's on the owner to track down the infringing user and ask nicely for some payment for the use. If I had a manager or label I would expect them to do that for me and if not, it is up to me to get my payment or stop the infringment. Just because you have a copyright doesn't mean jack unless you the owner enforce it or choose to enforce it. AND since we all know nobody seems to be doing anything about it.. I figure they know when they want their money and when they want to do something about it. I mean I think it's pretty evident enough of us have done the leg work trying the legal way and we all get the standard response from the big labels and publishers in that 4th grade teach tone "Oh that's so cute for your little wedding video. Well we don't have anything in place to do that but just don't make a bunch of copies and I hope the video turns out for you. " As in my work I suppose if another videographer rips it. Well it's fair game I mean I can't really copyright it since I am using "THE BAD MUSIC". So if they rip it good.. Now I can advertise even more and show how others like it so much they use my work as well..:) Then again in court I could say, "Oh I didn't create that So and So did, check out his site I just downloaded it to watch it".. Now if I did all original and someone ripped it. Then I would send a nice letter asking for a monetary amount in exchange for the use. Again, it would be on me to do that.. I personally feel at this time the only musicians to benefit from a lengthly highly publized trial against the videographer community would be Enya and Celine Dion since every darn demo seems to use their music..ROFL! (Yes Steve I know multiple muscians under one label, yadda yadda) P.S. The only thing I am worried about his David Bonner kicking my butt for over using his DVD Cover design and using some of his techniques.. Dave tell me where to send the check..:) |
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Smartsound Maximum Action: Texas Rock or Smartsound Fashion Dictates. I'm kinda partial to Fashion Dictates over the Texas Rock. Copyright music threads are useless. Some people choose to drink and drive, some choose to load software to friends, some choose to not yeild on arterials and some smokers toss lit cigarettes out their car window, some people don't report that $300 slot machine win, some people murder people, some people rob people, some people speed, some people use trial software pass the trial period, some people take other peoples land and force them to live on reservations, some people read these forums, some people don't read these forums and some people have nothing better to do than do the work of the RIAA for free.. In all fairness to Steve he is doing and saying the right thing and if he were to apply with the RIAA he could have some good reference material. But I have to ask the question. Does he even do wedding videos and I can't imagine a Bride going with Smart Sound or Dewolfe over say Shania Twain per say.. Well let me be honest. "HI. My name is Pat and I'm a license Abuser" |
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(for Glen, I'm closing this thread; let's chat by email. thanks -- CH) |
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