working with lawyers
 

Ok, the bride is a lawyer. In response to my three page contract she submitted a 7 page addendum to the contract. Erf.

After a little back and forth we have whittled it down to a restatement of what we plan on doing anyway. At first there was quite a bit of language that alarmed me such as "required shots" and such. Once she was educated on the process we got rid of most of that objectional language. It is still, however, a very intimidating document.

How do you folks feel about this sort of thing? Have you run into it and how did you handle it? Live action events are a tough thing to supply gaurantees with so what is a lad to do?

Mike

I don't do weddings, but 5o% of my work is for lawyers. Although I have never encountered a contract that was as extensive as yours, I do find them to be a little more critical and cynical than most clients. I have used their revised contracts as a template for other projects. They do cross their T and dot their I's. On the plus side, once you meet them in the field, most seem to be smart, articulate and work well with a professionals.

Or they just sue your ass! (insert favorite smiley here)

Include clauses that release you from liability in the occurrence of situations beyond your control - ie: weather conditions such as rain or high wind if outdoors, significantly less than workable lighting conditions if indoors, shooting restrictions of the facility such as camera placement or timeframes when shooting is not permitted for certain sacred rituals, inhibiting performance of third-party vendors, ie: frustrating back-of-the-head shots when the photographer continously obstructs your lens as they vie for 'that perfect angle, or situations when DJ's or sound people provide sub-par audio capture and voice amplification where it could adversley affect your audio content.

Finally, and experienced most often - erratic and disruptive behavior of attendants and guests (usually small children left unattended running in and out of frame during those special moments where good video is so important -and of course any number of adult guests after partying and drinking for several hours - who choose to find the most crucial of moments to stand in front of the lens and assault the camera with the most imbecillic level of antics and mumblings. This can make for a great outtake reel, but is very difficult to fold into a nice, smooth romantic wedding video.

Others might add a few more - but you will then need to compile it all down to clear, concise 'legalese'. But in the end, you really need to make sure that you are not bound and liable for certain situations that are simply beyond your control.

You can adopt a shooting and production style that can help you anticipate such problems in a few cases, but again, you shouldn't be legally bound by things that you need magic to overcome.
-Jon

Lawyers--
 

Are you separating shooting duties, from subsequent editing and production duties ? You may get in a situation where you just don't want to work on the other side.

I'm curious if any one else considers an escape clause that can be exercised.. by either party should it become apparent that there is no way of satifying the client....

By the way, this comes from an attorney...

Chris Barcellos.

lol, u know whats funny i was iun teh EXACT same situation..

sure enough she didnt need to make all those 7 pages worth of changes but the fact that she wanted to go over it and add and remove things aggravated me...

at the end of the day the contract ended up remaining as is, however the idea of someone going around and changing a bulletproof contract (for me) annoyed me, coz to be honest with u, its not negotiable.. i mena sure the packages are, but the production values arent..

as for shots, i would steer clear of anyone demanding certain shots if they intend not to offer a guide for you.
Ive done Afghan and Maco weddings with specific shots required during the reception (henna ceremony etc) and i ALWAYS demand that for specifics like this, i need to know at least 10 minutes in advance by somoene close to the bridal party so i can be there to shoot. This is in writing.

Apart from that if theyre going to be THAT pedantic, i dont bother with them, Ive been doing this long enough to be selective with my clients however i dont need somsone telling me how to do my job when 100% of my clients have been happy so far.. AND they get a contract throughout the whole process to boot.

If it aint broke, dont fix it..

when i run into picky clients, i just don't bother. if a prospective client ever sends me a 7 page addendum (!!) to my contract, i would probably turn down the gig.

it's not worth the headache. i can always book the date with a couple that's easier to work with.

I've been handed similar contracts, but not for weddings. One thing you might want to consider is that the lawyer is more of an expert in these things than you are. So you might want to tell the client you'll need to raise your bid for the project to cover the costs of having a lawyer go over the contract+rider (and perhaps buy E&O insurance <g>) to make sure you understand what you're getting into.

Or just pass on the job. Boy, if the pre-nup is that stressful, just imagine what may happen when you deliver...

Jim

Snipping the rest because I don't need to read any further.

Walk. Simply "walk" away from this one. Not because she's a lawyer - because she slapped a counter-contract on you. Your contract and handling of prior clients should stand on its own.

Simply tell her, "My attorney has advised me not to negotiate the terms in my contract and that we both should reconsider this arrangement". She'll understand.

Pass on the job and send condolences to the groom. I would not risk it.

Mike

"One thing you might want to consider is that the lawyer is more of an expert in these things than you are. "

It dependson what context your refering to here.. expert as within the contract structure, or expert as in the video itself?
Im assuming ur refering to the contract, however ive had quite afew potential lawyer wedding clients whove tried to pull the fast one so now the contract is NOT negotiable.
As far as im concerned my contract was written in lamens terms by me, however it was passed onto a QC (Queens Council.. the highest "lawyer" status in the country.. lucky hes an uncle of my best mate... he woulda cost me 7grand an hour...) anyways.. the point im making is that just coz theyre lawyers, doesnt make them know and understand what we do and how we do it..

if they dont know (which is prolly 99% of clients), they will automatically assume the worst and include these amendments.. if however you cover your ass within the contract yourself, they really arent left with much ammo...

apart from the "personal taste" where they try to add things in for free (like raw material) as they believe they own it.. there really shouldnt be a need to add or change anything

Great Line for a movie--
 

Sounds like good line for a movie. In my legal experience, whether it is a three page contract or a 20 page contract, it is only as good as the two people backing it up..... You can make a judgment on who you are dealing with long before you get the contract out... I have to do that with clients every day....

Chris Barcellos

I would suggest that in the future you simply state that you would be happy to have your attorney review their changes but that, sadly, you will need to add your attorneys fees to the bill.

In addition for this type of client I would suggest a SIZEABLE retainer.

That should simplify the process greatly.

Just a thought.

"I would suggest that in the future you simply state that you would be happy to have your attorney review their changes but that, sadly, you will need to add your attorneys fees to the bill."

heheheheh good call.. ;)

I couldn't help but thinking the same thing. I wonder what kind of pre-nup that poor guy had to sign...

I was just thinking that no matter what your profession, doctor, lawyer, or whatever, you should be able to put it aside long enough to get married.

I think this job would be problematic and I would pass or get a real good lawyer myself.

Mike

Well thank you folks for all the input. Very interesting.

After much thought, quite a few phone calls and a meeting this is my impression. First, the client needed some education in the ways of video. Once some things were explained to her, she understood and removed most of the offensive language. It was not a case of "trying to get away with something". Rather, it was simply not understanding the nature of live action video.

I agree with the post stating "you ought to be able to put away your day job for a while". She doesn't agree. Her take is that she is simply putting in writing all the things I state on my web page and the things we talked about. Her position is that this just makes it clear what both of us expect to do.

My first reaction to all this was to run like hell. She is, however, a pretty nice person in person. Upon further investigation it turns out she has been in the bridal party of two weddings that had vendors go bad. In one case the video guy.

Now before we get all defensive and say things like "you can't go around judging others that way" let's review this. Here is LA there are a HUGE number of jokers out there who buy a camera and nail up a shingle. The horror stories are endless and the wedding industry in general does a pretty poor job in self policing. So, with that kind of reputation I really can't fault her too much for the paranoia.

I am going to give it a run. I tend to trust my gut on people and I think she is straight up. I will post anything interesting that transpires.

Thanks again for the views, they helped make the decision.

Mike

Sounds like you have thought it out well. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Mike

I still think you should trust this initial instinct and follow through with it but no matter...

And I still think "her" contract indicates she's not willing to say the same about you. (Or to the extent it matters).

Good luck!

A high pesentage of my wedding clients are Lawyer and Judges. The only ones that try changing anything on contracts are the ones still in school or resently graduated.
I just tell them to trust me, that before they started going to school I was already doing this for many years.

Well, my contract basically reads that I will do my best, but if I miss shots or events for any reason at all, sorry about that. If you have this kind of clause in your contract (and you should), she should be smart enough to know that nothing else she adds really matters.

At the very least I would add enough to their bill to pay for a lawyer to review her changes. And I would probably add in enough to buy some lawsuit insurance, since it costs her NOTHING to go the court route if she feels slighted or thinks she looks fat. More likely I would just use my contract as-is, or write up in my own language anything that needs to be changed or added.

I don't think I will allow and "addendum" again. We made the mistake of opening the door on this by "having a look" at what she sent. From now on there will simply be no discussion about this sort of thing. Either you take us as we are or not. Nothing personal, just business.

I believe this is a case of the artistic world meeting the cynical lawyer world. A lawyers job is to clearly outline a transaction with as few loopholes (or as many) as possible. Ours is a much more nebulous, free spirited approach with the goal of creating something the client will love with as few restrictions as possible. Two parties seperated by a common language....

I suppose the bottom line is that I trust in our product. Maybe I am too optimistic and will get flattened here but I refuse to give in to the cynical approach. I'll keep you posted!

Mike

Good Thread
 

This is a great thread Mike. Keep in mind a young lawyer singing your praises is a good thing to have. I wouln't worry about not getting paid personally. I would want to be covered should things go the other way and you had a major system failure. It's good that you were able to give her some edducation on what it takes to do good work. If your contract says basicly that you are not to be held liable should things go bad then I'm ok with it. Personally I think it kind of small for someone who can make $300 or more an hour all day long to come back at a guy with a seven page addendum who is trying to make it work with his video camera but maybe she doesn't know how long it takes to make a good product and hopefully you have brought her up to speed on that. I do in the future favor the idea of you holding firm on the contract that is there to protect you. I used to do a lot of custom home building and additions, people were always asking me do to things that were sub code. I always said sorry but you need to get someone else. 90 percent of the time they would then elect to do it right the other 10 percent weren't worth working for. As far as having a shot list, I make it very clear that any list of shots is a wish list and not in any way to be construed as a to do list for a successful project.

Mike Smith

I had a wedding couple just recently where the groom was the lawyer, and to boot he was also the front man for the wedding planning. The bride was much less involved. He had a few issues with my contract (mostly just questions), but nothing like a 7-page addendum. I could understand an extra page to clarify things, but from where I sit a 7-page addendum seems awfully excessive.

Now, to your bride's credit, I sincerely doubt that she was trying to get away with anything. I never thought that of my groom lawyer. They are just trying to protect themselves. However, you have to protect yourself as well, and live events are nothing to sneeze at, especially weddings since much of what is planned does not actually go as planned. I know I would never change or add on to my current contract unless I felt totally comfortable with the change or add on. And for that matter, the fact that I have nothing but satisfied clients would make me even less inclined to cater to the whims and fears of a lawyer. I think you did the right thing in educating the bride so she could understand the challenges you face.

It sounds like you have worked things out, so good for you. She will likely be a good source of referrals for future work.

Lawyers
 

Sounds like it's this woman's bad experiences and not her profession that make her overly critical of Mike's contract. My wife was in law school when we married in '96, and neither of us agonized over our videographer's contract. Of course, videography's come a long way in ten years, so client expectations these days are (and should be) higher.

My point is that lawyers are people too, and some of them have hearts :)