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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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With the exception of playback issues, sounds like your list of short comings are about "niche uses". Really, how many out there are capturing into cards ? Maybe a thousand or two worldwide ? I am curious about that. Like FCP X, but earlier on, I think SCS has recognized that money is not in those specialized uses, and that third party plug in will grow as use by mainstream users increases. Definitely not a marketing strategy that favors the pro user with specialized need, but on the other hand, one that may preserve the economic viability of the product. The question is can the pro user get what he needs in this NLE so he or she can take advantage of the nice things about it. Thus, the reason for this thread. Is the pro or high end consumer better off going to Premiere Pro or Avid or FCP X ? The history of Adobe products has been ever increasing pricing-- probably necessary for the development it has undergone. But the result is that you lose a share of the market every time your entry level goes up $100.00. And when updates are charged at high levels, that makes the common user who doesn't want all the new stuff, look at alternatives like Vegas. Conversly, if Vegas starts adding support for these niche areas, its licensing and development is going to require its price to increase. I don't think its a matter of concentration on developing the core, as much as it is a choice of marketing. From that stand point, I like the idea of a solid clean and easy to use NLE like Vegas, with the specialized capabilities to be added as I need them from third parties. I think Apple has recognized that too, though it didn't expect as much backlash as it has gotten. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
As a wild card, I'd add the new Lightworks to the list, still beta, but I've been having a quick play with it and shall we say I find it less annoying than Vegas when trying to do actual edits. Vegas is good at assembling lots of different media, but to be honest I find it frustrating as a program for frame accurate action cutting.
Lightworks isn't the power in the NLE market that it was, but for actual editing it's pretty neat. Interestingly, you can use either AVID or FCP keyboard inputs or the rather cool looking Lightworks console. The manual is also pretty readable. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Again I'm not knocking Vegas at all. I think it is an awesome program but we also use CS5 and FCP at work. We are even an authorized dealer for Sony Vegas but there are just some things in a professional environment it just cannot do. We see an example of this need right now with FCPX. It isn't because it is different that pros are furious over. It is the lack of some of those features lacking in Vegas. There is a good reason why companies like AJA, Blackmagic and Matrox exist. Because people out there do have a need for capture cards. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Though I am not an Apple user, I like the idea with FCPX that I can buy a real clean basic NLE and ad what I need for my specific product. I think this is beginning to come true for Vegas with its most recent changes in plug in structure.
I get a feeling with Adobe that you pay a pretty high price for medium level performance, and then if you want to maximize it, you have to go to a specialized product anyway. And in the background of all of this is the development of Linux based freeware editing, which seems to be accelerating. I have played with KdenLive a bit in months past, actually editing my Canon DSLR footage. Big issue there is output codecs, from what I have seen. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Hmmmm. While I love the open source concept, at first blush Lightworks looks like it has a pretty steep learning curve. Though I haven't explored in detail, it seems that the preview capability is week. Also, It only displays on one of my two screens.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
I haven't gone into Lightworks beta with any depth, but there appears to be a logic to everything. Although it currently doesn't ingest everything and there is also the commercial version. Also, you need to buy a license that allows you to ingest certain codecs.
Is There a Good Overall Tutorial here or on DVD for Beginners? - there's an intro video half way down. From my quick play the editing was much more fun and I was making test edits very quickly. They've got a quick manual which gets you going. From what I could see, Lightworks wasn't that more complex than Vegas, just different. From what I gather from an editor friend it was originally designed for film editors, so if you've cut film (which I've done) you can see the parallels at work. It really depends what you want to use it for, but I'd use it before Vegas for narrative drama or standard TV docs. Perhaps less so for a production that has multi source media. which Vegas seems to be strong at. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Sony's version of EDL, but not a standard EDL. It's no good for cross-application use.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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In the forum I also saw a bit of similar issues re: what the NLE should be---- a powerful open source pro editor, or one that morphs into another consumer NLE..... |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
I guess that's the divide, the professional's requirements with the need to interface but a small market or a pretty much stand alone program for consumers with larger sales.
Lightworks has had an unfortunate past, so what becomes of it will be interesting. My editor friend was talking to one of the people involved in the early days and things could have gone in a totally different direction if the investment funding had worked out with Grass Valley. The control console was impressive and you could really spin through the material. I found this recently uploaded demo of the console: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO0-0IVEYnM |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Why only in the 32 bit version? Premiere can save AAF , and its 64bit. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Well, it's rather strange that it supports AAF in 32 bit and not in 64 bit.
Are you allowed, license wise, to install both versions? And if so, can one exchange Vegas projects between the two? It's in the hands of software companies, if they decide there's more money to be had by selling cheaper and simpler programs to a wider audience there is nothing we can do. That happened to FCP, Vegas was halfway there and others might follow FCP's lead ... With Open Source you'd be less at the mercy of shareholders. You could help Lightworks (going open source) by beta-testing it - you'd only have (future) developers to deal with. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Yes you can install both 32-bit and 64-bit and both versions can open the same projects. So just install the 32-bit version too, edit in 64-bit, load in 32-bit, and export.
NOTE: the LAST one you install will become the default when you double-click on the icon so most people prefer the install the 32-bit version first and the 64-bit version second. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
"Are you allowed, license wise, to install both versions? And if so, can one exchange Vegas projects between the two?"
Yes you are allowed to install both. 32bit and 64bit work fine together and the project can be opened in both. I believe you cannot copy and paste clips between them however. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
On the Lightworks end... I tried a key last night on some old footage I had, and have to say it seems to work well. I still don't quite understand the method of pulling together a whole project yet, but I am halfway through a group of tutorials I found. They are not that great, but at least its an attempt to go though the process with Lightworks.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
I suspect the project organisation with Lightworks maybe rather like the way film editors worked. One method they used was to cut sequences or scenes and then join those together, rather than cutting everything as one continuous whole piece.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Actually, Brian, that is way I do it, and I have no prior (prior to digital NLE's) experience with that type of editing.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Makes sense on longer form pieces.
Lightworks seems to be in transition from a proprietary system to the final open source program, so your input/output options currently seem to be limited until the new arrangements can be put into place. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Re: Lightworks: Interestingly it handles the Canon footgage fine. It also takes Cineform converted avi's too.
A couple of things are a bit disturbing. You seem to be able to lose an edit or a bin of footage pretty easily, unless you take affirmative steps to assure save. Seems like me the default should be saving "on", with an option to delete. It is hard to adjust to this cut and insert process, after working so easily with Vegas. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
You only have to name the bin to make it and it's contents persist. Alternatively, anything you do use from a transient (non-permanent) bin will not be removed. Cleverly useful actually.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
I'm sure the whole process makes clear sense to a real film editor. Cutting and trimming clips seems to work like they want to preserve that actually snip out a section and then drag the remaining footage to join in the edit. Doesn't seem to have a ripple effect that I have seen yet. Just makes my appreciation for Vegas grow so much more.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
I think Lightworks involves a different way of working compared to Vegas, which I do tend to find fiddly when things can "slip" so easily when just working in the timeline. An example of a "slip" being that you find you've got a fade instead of cut... I guess that comes from the program's sound editing roots.
You may find their term for ripple is different, rather like they use stripview instead of timeline. The layers of logging/filing organisation in Lightworks is impressive. Overall, I'd say it's closer to Avid or FCP than Vegas and I gather it's the console (currently not available) that's the really nice thing to use when editing with Lightworks. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
For about a week I tried real film editing is 70s, using Super 8 footage. Seemed so tedious. It would have helped to have a good camera and a decent editing system. I stayed with still cameras for any creative bent I might have. Fast forward 25 years to 97 or so, and I discovered video and digital editing.... But missing was all that history in between that would have left me with an appreciation for the way many continue to feel they want to edit. I don't have a feel for the need for editing decision lists, etc. I worked first Pinnacle Studio, then went to Premiere Pro with an editing board. Worked with that for about 5 years, all the time, wondering why things were done certain way. As I look at it now, so much of that was due to the way physical film had been edited, and an attempt to carry a lot of the techniques and traditions forward. Later when I started in on Vegas I felt like I was freed from some of those imposed restrictions, the same process that others feel comforting. I think this really explains what is going on with FCP X and the growing popularity of Vegas. The older style is being supplanted by them in favor of what might be more acceptable to the the upcoming generation.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
There are demands for various versions of a film during an edit as various producers and executives throw in their half pence worth. Any new editing programs need to highly capable in dealing with this and be quick in allowing the editor make changes within a tight schedule. I think these are the requirements that any professional NLE programs need to address over and above if you edit in the timeline or in a trim or edit box.
The requirements for even an advanced consumer are rather different, which is why there could be a division in the two markets. NLEs are perhaps closer to 16mm or 35mm editing with the magnetic sound tracks than Super 8 and the creative process.is the same, just the mechanics are different. BTW Looking through the listed features, ripple is available on Lightworks. You could try editing on its timeline, I suspect there are quite a few things that can be done the same way as with Vegas, although pushing different buttons. The rather nice thing I like is you can inch though the shots using the wheel on the mouse, which on Vegas seems to just expand or contract the scale of the timeline. Traditionally, professional editors tend to stick to the NLE they're used to... I guess they don't want those "how do I do this" moments with a director or producer looking over their shoulder. The Lightworks appears to be a work in progress; http://lightworksbeta.com/index.php?...112&Itemid=246 |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
The potential of Linux Lightworks support is kind of interesting to me. I ran a box for a while with KdenLive, and saw that open source is really progressing. Its kind of fun to run on an open source OS, using all open source tools from Gimp through Open Office. We are at a point where with a little dedication, you could actually outfit a decent edit bay with a new box and software for a grand..... Obviously. Something to consider for those not collaberating in their work with others.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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You could always multiply the matte with one of the tracks. But what about the other track? You cannot just add it to the result of the multiplication. You could multiply it by the negative of the matte, I suppose, but how would you add the result to the track multiplied by the mask itself? The only way I can think of is to nest projects: In one you multiply a track by the matte, in the other you multiply the other by the negative of the matte, then you nest one project within another and add them. But doing that is like flying from London to New York through Singapore. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Adam, try this:
Track 1: B/W Mask. You must set the track to "Multiply Mask" compositing mode. Add a "Sony Mask Generator" effect to either the mask or the track - it doesn't matter which. Track 2: Video to show through the white areas. This track must be a "child" to track 1 Track 3: Video to show through the black areas. This is just a standard track. I explained the full process in Vol 2 #5 of my newsletters. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Gosh, I have been using SV for years and still do not know many things about it. I wish there was a really detailed book that explained everything about Vegas. Maybe that is what “They” have that Vegas does not. If even diehard Vegas users do not realize all the power Vegas offers, it is hard for those outside to see how good Vegas is. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
Douglas Spotted Eagle has a series of books on the various versions of Vegas, the one I have seems to cover a vast range of stuff in about 500 pages.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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I know they offer the webinars, which helps, but a systematic printed handbook would go a long way towards attracting customers. |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
I think the Vegas manual assumes a certain degree of familiarity with the editing process and for some, that might be sufficient. The 440 page manual for Vegas Pro 8 (included on the DVD along with the 172 page DVD Architecture manual) is very helpful, but to add a different perspective or more detailed explanation, I try to collect the DVD training videos, as there are several of them out there. Sometimes I find what I need on YouTube. The Vegas Pro 10 manual is currently available for download.
Sony Creative Software - Download: Manuals Mark |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
The Sony manual is difficult to read and the terms used get confusing, even if you know the basic processes.
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
i really think this is a pointless exercise.....
vegas will NEVER be considered a pro tool until it incorporates, at a minimum, comprehensive edl and time code management, (let alone other collaborative features). the pro market's orientation towards avid / ppro / fcp (whose poor fanboi's are now discovering the its pitfalls) stem from their basic collaborative and media management facilities. vegas can't even export an industry standard cmx edl, and media management (in the form of mm) is simply laughable! that said, for the event and indie producer vegas, when combined with any, or a combination of plugins from boris, genarts, newblue, etc., offers a phenomenal, in house, one stop post-production solution. i don't see scs being interested in pursuing the (relatively small) pro market (after all, sony's broadcast division has long spruked avid as it's preferred nle), and i'm sure, judging from the rapid introduction of 3d into vegas rather than a serious rewrite of code to get away from the almost archaic vfw, only goes to prove that their target is the high end consumer / event videographer. my hopes are that they get rid of the 'serious' remaining bugs, such as random media replacement, out of memory problems, and as mentioned, doing away with vfw once and for all.... |
Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
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Marc |
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Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I
In another post, I talked about an FCP 7 user that I had at my edit facility, in which we were performing a music video edit with Vegas. He was amazed at how I was dragging and dropping multiple formats and framerates of footage on the time line, keying from the time line and adding effect to each, and generally rushing through the edit so quickly.
Recently I spoke with him again. He said he had just started working with FCP X. He said that it was a lot more like working with Vegas, and he felt that it was actually a blessing to him in terms of ease of use. I have no idea why EDL is so important to some, and what the issue is with "media management" IN fact, I have never used Vegas media manager. But I am sure that is because of what was said above, I don't really have to worry about working with anyone else, and I am a one man show. In the event I have project going with another Vegas user, we simply exchange the raw files, and I can then send .veg files to him. I also use stand alone drives that I can physically move to another computer system. |
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