Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

How would you color correct this image in Vegas? The brown jacket is suppose to be black.
Filmed with the Sony EX1 on a custom profile.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

i might be wrong, but judging from the whites and skin tone i think you might be looking at the sort of synthetic material which refracts light differently than normal natural materials such as cotton, linen, wool....

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Hi Nicholas

Wow that sure is tricky!! The overall white balance looks correct as there is no colour cast in the bride's dress. You can key various colours in Vegas but the issue there would be that the timber beams in the Church are also close to the groom's jacket. Is this thruout the entire video??? You could create a matte over his jacket but that would take months to apply to frames as he moves.

It's hard to believe that the camera only "saw" the jacket as the wrong colour ..your skin tones look pretty much right and other "brownish" objects in the frame also seem correct.

Even if you correct the colour can you actually match the correct jacket colour....I'd like to know what caused just the jacket to be off!!! In longer shots is it still brown????

Chris

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

That is a serious case of IR contamination. The EX1 and EX3 are both susceptible to that issue. Its most pronounced when shooting in sunlight or under hot lights with certain fabric types. Black car seat belts are just about guaranteed to demonstrate the problem. The EX1r included updated IR filtration to reduce the effect.

If you have the original EX1 you may want to grab an IR filter. Tiffen has produced a filter specific to the issue and you can read more about it here - ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams

There is a lot of info about the problem in the EX areas of the forum here as well.

Sorry I can't help so much on how to fix the problem in Vegas since I'm not a Vegas user but the above info about the filter should help you prevent it from happening next time.

How I would fix it in my system is to do a garbage matte around the suit with motion tracking then use secondary color correction to do a color exchange.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Nicholas,
I have to agree with what's been said. All the other colors seem to look proper and I looked at the buttons on the jacket and they show as black so it would seem the material of the jacket is made of some sort of reflective material and quite frankly there is probably nothing you can do that wouldn't take perhaps months to do to "fix" the jacket all the while perhaps doing damage to other areas. Honestly I would leave it and IF the couple were to say anything simply explain the law of light vs. certain materials.
I've had black jackets turn blue under the right conditions. Nothing I can do about it. Same applies here.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Thanks for all the input guys! My brown is actually a red! Chris Medico I appreciate the link & advice I've heard about the IR issue on my EX1 but wasn't sure how it affected my video. This is not the first time this has happened and it always seem to be the grooms jackets that suffer the most. The environment was very dark so I had two 750W tungsten lights with Full Blue (CTB) gels on the couple - this color problem usually happens under hot lights now that you mention it. I've tried every kind of color correction short of masking and I can't get a fix, masking is going to take a bit too long so I will make peace with the red jacket for now. I will have to buy IR filters as soon as possible, I've had a big problem with reds on my EX1 especially with skin tones under sunlight.

As mentioned material must also be a factor, have a look at the pants which seem to be black.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

I think the groomsmen's pants appear black because they are in the shadows. I think that overall the best thing might be to let it go and just go with it.

I see clothing appear differently under different lightinig conditions even in hollywood films and TV, on occasion.

Your problem would bug me also, but I truly think the customer would not even notice, because it is normal for things in lowlight situations to appear weird, and they know this at an unconscious level.

We pick up on this stuff because we're looking for it. I like you hate when black don't appear black but I'd skip it and just edit. As you've already surmised from the excellent comments, anything you do will only mess things up.

If you showed this image to your customer and said "Doesn't this look nice?", I bet they would agree it looked great. Then if you were to point out the color issue, they would be as bugged as we are about it.

Main thing don't mention it to them, and they'll be happy.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

I bet the groom is wearing wool pants and his mates are wearing synthetic. Clearly the pants on the left have the same problem as all the jackets but the pants on the groom do not.

Ah the troubles of modern life. It all looks the same but isn't the same. ;)

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

I disagree Chris. If we look at the grooms pants, we can see details such as wrinkles in his slacks, and the light distribution appears to be relatively even on him.

The area from the beginning of the bottom of the groomsmen's jackets and downward it appears we are seeing a less well lit area, there is a cutoff point where we are into shadows there and it's just plain dark, hence the darker appearance of their slacks. In addition, the left cuff of the groomsman on the left (for the subject it would be his right cuff) does show up brighter where light is hitting that spot above his shoe.

This is just one of those things that Nick is stuck with. His footage, based on this grab, looks perfectly fine to me.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

The source of my opinion is - The light causing the problem is out of frame on the camera top right side. You can see a nice shadow behind the groom from that light. His pants are well lit and are not in shadow. They are just a natural fabric and not a synthetic.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Not sure how to do in Vegas as I haven't tried doing the same approach but this tutorial for Edius shows how to isolate the colour and change to what is needed. I have used this to correct for the same EX3 issues in the theatre shoots I do. I now have a preset that gets me close and saves some time. There are others in this series too, can't remember which one is the most appropriate at the moment.


Ron Evans

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Chris, you are exactly right, the Groom is getting hit with the light more evenly.

The groomsmen are not, and their lower halves are in the shadows, hence darker looking slacks. At least that is my humble opinion. Our little debate is unimportant really, but interesting nevertheless.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

A good debate is a wonderful thing.

This is one of the best forums on the entire net.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

I think I see what you're saying about the fabric now. I think with some suits the jacket, even made with same fabric, will be more reflective, because it is heavier and a smoother surface and better reflective surface than the thinner slacks.

I have a couple of expensive wool suits (black) and the jackets are hard to match with the slacks, because one jacket has a shiny sheen, much moreso than the other, yet both sets of slacks look almost the same, and I can never figure out which slacks go with which jacket without going to the labels.

In other words, the slacks that go with the shiny sports coat have virtually no sheen to match the jacket.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Personally, I can't believe that those jackets are true black. That is some major red tint going on there.

We shot an actor recently against a green screen with what we thought was a dark grey jacket and we found some green tint in there. Not a big deal, but still... That grooms jacket on the other hand... a major pain to fix.

Edit: Chris is probably right about the fabric being the culprit. The brides hair is in the same light and looks pretty true... Not that I was there...

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Forgetting about the fabric debate for a second, I shot a lot of weddings with the FX1000, and I had many times when black suits looked brown, it drove me crazy on many-an-edit. There was just nothing I could do. The Panasonic HMC150, however really produced much truer blacks. While I did not care for the Panasonic, I did like it's color reproduction a lot in situations where the Sony was overly warm or muddied. Those cameras were not a good match.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Jeff,

That is due to one camera being CCD and the other being CMOS. CMOS is much more sensitive to NIR than CCD is.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Well, that certainly explains things. I love my new cams, mostly true blacks now, just so much better.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Shooting with EX3, NX5U, SR11 and XR500 for a theatre show the EX3 show the same effect on black costumes, NX5U has just a little of the same effect but the SR11 and XR500 show true black. All are CMOS. I now accept this is going to happen and correct as I do not own the EX3 it is used by a friend for the shows. I think the consumer cameras have the IR filter built in.

The fabric does have an effect based on how it responds to IR light/reflection. Painted matte black sets do not seem to show the effect.

Ron Evans

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Hi Guys

Just for interest, I have never had that issue with my Panasonics and my first two pairs of cameras were CCD and the current ones are CMOS but I must admit that Panasonic have always got the colour right for me...colour grading or correction is a rare event for me!!!

Luckily I have never come across Nicholas's issue !! The big problem is trying to explain to a non-technical bride why her husband's jacket is the wrong colour!!!

Chris

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

I have not tried to fix in Vegas but the fix in Edius is not that time consuming. The first time it took me about 30 mins since I wasn't sure what I was doing !!! Now it is quick to use the preset I created and just fine tune. Essentially a colour mask and secondary colour filter. Should be possible in Vegas too.

Ron Evans

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

FYI, I have the EX1r and I've not had the IR issues even though I shoot under conditions that would cause them in the original EX1. Sony got an ear full about the problem and at least addressed it in this camera series.

I've not noticed any blacks going red with the Sony F3 either.

Cross my fingers they learned a lesson there.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

To settle the lighting debate the couple was evenly lit by two Arri lights on either side (left & right), I was quite chuffed with my lighting, the church is as dark as a dungeon. It's definitively an IR issue compounded by the custom profile I created on my EX1, I will have to create a new profile for hot lights and black materials while I wait for my IR filter. I also tried selective coloring by isolating the red but the red is in skin tones as well so it's pretty pointless without affecting skin tones of guests unless I start masking. The problem is luckily carried over from the beginning during the groom preparations so it's a theme, the overall product is a pretty amazing edit so I don't think they will mind the color spill & if they ask there really is nothing that can be done at this point from a time vs cost perspective.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

The key to colour correcting is creating a mask just for the jacket/suit not the colour which will effect the whole image. Once you have the mask you can turn it into any colour you like !!

Ron Evans

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Nicholas, there was a similar thread on the Sony Vegas forum and the general consensus was that it would be a LOT of work to fix this problem in post.
Color Correction Help
I couldn't remember the thread so I asked for some help in finding it.
FWIW, here are two comments from my request.

The filter he needs (or maybe NEEDS) is a Tiffin T1. Fixing it in post is not a good idea, especially for something long form like a wedding. I'm not snobby about much but I will no longer use an EX series camera without one.
He may be able to tweek it out with some color correction, but I see a lot of keyframing in his future.

It is true that some dyed synthetic fabrics register poorly because of IR interaction, esp. with bright tungsten or halogen lighting. It's been the bane of wedding photographers for decades, where the groomsmen's wool tuxedos look right, but the best man's synthetic tux comes out deep amber.
Unfortunately, filtering IR at the lens is not terribly effective iirc, and filtering the lighting source would be generally impractical. Glass in itself is a moderately effective filter of IR in the near-visible spectrum.
WRT the thread at dvinfo, Chris Medico's comments seem spot on. I worked in custom photo labs for the better part of two decades, and I bet there wasn't a month went by that this issue didn't come up in the midst of a wedding job. The fix then was building costly film masks for the final presentation prints, but of course that's an impossible approach with video.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

That issue used to drive me nuts when I was using the EX3. I found that bumping the contrast slightly did seem to help, but of course it changes the overall look of the footage.

Good luck with this. Man, that is some nasty IR going on there.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

Mike, that filter is awesome, just looked it up, would solve the problem totally, it appears, and can be left on the camera all the time according to Tiffen.

Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown?
 

It can be left on the camera but it will cost you 1/2 stop of light.

It shouldn't be an issue since it would be used most often under strong hot lights. Just something to remember.