Vegas Field Order and Print To Tape
 

Our National Broadcaster had to delay the transmission of some of my footage today because of the following problem:

Over the weekend I created a disk that contained a .AVI file that was a PAL DV render of some footage.

This file was supposed to be used as the source for transfer to Betacam tape for broadcast.

This morning I was informed that there was very bad 'interlace flicker' on my footage.

I said that I would have another look at the footage and my render settings (in case I made a mistake). My render settings were fine i.e. Vegas PAL DV.

Instead of rendering and copying the resulting file to a disk I used the 'Print to Tape' option and output to my Sony FX1E, gave them the MiniDV tape, and the conversion went through fine (no interlace flicker and I had not changed any of my render settings at all).

My first question is this:

Does Vegas do anything differently when 'Printing to Tape'? (In my opinion I cannot see how the end result is different when rendering to a file).

I also tried to use MainConcept's DVCPro 25 and DVCPro 50 from within Vegas and these files were also unuseable. Does anyone know anything about these codecs? No matter what setting I use for rendering with regard to field order Vegas detects the field order of DVCPro 25 and a DVCPro 50 files as 'Interlaced, Upper Field First' (and checking the 'Change Field Order' in the codecs' settings also does not seem to make a difference i.e. I cannot create a rendered file with the field order set to 'Interlaced, Lower Field First' using these codecs and Vegas).

Input?

Regards,

Dale.

this sounds complicated, dale did you record in hdv first? then downconvert to dv?

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the reply.

No - I did not shoot in HDV - no downconverting - just straight PAL DV.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the studio doing the conversion to the Betacam tape either did not have the correct equipment or the knowhow to do this.

There was absolutely no difference between (at least) one of the files on disk (that was rendered as straight PAL DV) and the resultant footage of 'Print to Tape'.

Why did the footage that came from the tape look great and they say that the footage that I output to disk had interlace flicker and artefacts? It has just dawned on me that if they did not have MainConcepts Encoder(s) installed on the workstation it would not have worked anyway.

I created a DVD for the client to keep using the identical disk files that apparantely did not work and that DVD is perfect!

Put it this way - there was always a possibility that the DVCPro 25 and DVCPro 50 files had a problem because, like I said before, no matter what settings I use in Vegas (and no matter what settings I change in the DVCPro 25 and DVCPro 50 Encoder) the resulting file ALWAYS has a field order of Upper/Top/Odd Field First (according to Vegas anyway). This theoretically means that the DVCPro 25 and DVCPro 50 files had the field order reversed but the PAL DV file definitely had a field order of Lower/Bottom/Even Field First (likewise all of the clips in the project) so there should have been no problem with that file.

Does anyone know of some software that CORRECTLY judges the field order of a file (other than Vegas which I know to have issues sometimes)? Someone once showed me how to use TMPEGenc to judge the field order but this is by no means accurate.

Regards,

Dale.

Use G spot. Just like Vegas, it tells you in plainly written text what the field order of the clip is. Although it's certainly possible, I've never seen Vegas mis judge field order. I've seen lower field media have upper field, and Vegas thought it was lower field, but that was due to operator error in actually starting order off wrong.
HTH

Thanks for the reply.

A while ago I did use G Spot but if memory serves me correctly it only works on MPEG files (or am I wrong).

Edit by self:

Douglas - I just downloaded G Spot again - I was wrong about it only working on MPEG files BUT how or where does it show you whether the .AVI file is interlaced or progressive and if interlaced what the field order is?

Also please read on.

I need to check the field order of DV not MPEG and in particular MainConcept's DVCPro 25 and DVCPro 50.

In addition to the above I have asked the following question on numerous occasions on numerous boards but never had a reply:

What exactly does the 'Deinterlace method' in Vegas do (and, no offence to anyone, but please do not explain to me the difference between the methods - I know what deinterlacing is and the different methods of doing it).

Correct me if necessary on the following:

The 'Deinterlace method' in Vegas is the type of deinterlacing to be performed IF YOU INTEND DEINTERLACING YOUR FOOTAGE AT RENDER TIME?

In other words if you are not going to render to progressive then whatever 'Deinterlace method' is selected in your project properties should have no effect whatsoever on your footage when rendered? Correct?

That is my understanding!

BUT:

I have spent hour upon hour upon hour, day upon day, month upon ... (you get the picture) doing various tests and have come up with the following:

Using Vegas to convert HDV to PAL DV (and rendering to PAL DVD MPEG2) - if 'Deinterlace method' is set to 'None' - there is definite visible interlace flicker (and I did check the field order i.e. it should be, and was, 'Upper Field First'). In other words 'Deinterlace method' must be set to 'Blend fields' or 'Interpolate fields' for this exercise to work. Make sense? No!

Now because of this new problem (the problem that prompted the start of this thread) I did some more testing with PAL DV, DVCPro 25 and DVCPro 50, and the result (when re-rendering to PAL DV or MPEG2):

If the 'Deintelace method' in Vegas is set to anything OTHER than 'None' - again there is definite visible interlace flicker BUT ONLY ON THE DVCPRO25 AND DVCPRO 50 FOOTAGE! (All media in the project was 'Interlaced, Bottom Field First' and the same field order was used when rendering).

My point is this - in none of the above execises have I tried to render to progressive so why does the setting of 'Deinterlace method' even matter???

After even more digging I realised that when I rendered the files for the studio I used 'Blend fields' BUT this should theoretically have made no difference as I was rendering from PAL DV to PAL DV, DVCPro 25, DVCPro 50 all Lower/Bottom/Odd/Field B first!

Please - this issue has been getting to me for the last couple of years so I am either understanding this wrong or the 'Deinterlace method' does a whole lot more than it is supposed to.

Regards,

Dale.

I won't lie to you - this message was posted to get my query relating to 'Deinterlace method' exposure again.

Anyone have any thoughts on what is happening (above)? DSE?

Regards,

Dale.

Do you have any pan/cropping going on in the main image? Track Motion? It's possible to upset the pixel offset to create problems in the field order.

From what I understand, this is how Vegas works:

1- File --> Render as can override your project settings.

Project settings: Here you can specify what 'format' your project is in... i.e. upper/lower field first, deinterlace method, etc.

File --> Render as settings can override the project settings.

2- Vegas always tries to detect the format of your footage and convert it into the right format for the project.
So if you have have 24p footage (with pulldown) in a 60i project, Vegas will convert from 24p to 60i. It uses interpolation/Vegas' secret sauce instead of leaving the footage like it is.

3- You can right click an event and check "reduce interlace flicker".
Under file --> properties, deinterlace method sets the deinterlace method for the operation above.

When you have 60i footage in a progressive project, Vegas will also de-interlace footage. Recall in #2 that Vegas will make the footage fit the project.
Again, deinterlace method under file --> properties will set the deinterlace method.

Thank you both for the replies.

DSE - no in my test footage I was just using the media generator i.e. 10 seconds of large scrolling text.

Glenn - thanks for the reply.

However - I'm not sure if I do not understand what you are telling me or if I am not explaining myself well.

Are you saying that based on Vegas' judgment Vegas may INDEED be performing a deinterlace (and thereby using whatever setting for 'Deinterlace method' is selected even although YOU as the user are not actually instructing Vegas to render interlaced footage to a progressive file?

Regards,

Dale.

Sorry, that's a really long question. I believe this is the answer:

Yes, in some cases Vegas will deinterlace your footage. i.e. when you put 60i footage into a progressive project.

I'm not sure what caused your problem. Your problem could even be one of two things:
A- Interlace flicker. This is caused by 1-pixel horizontal lines that flicker on a CRT TV. De-interlacing is one way to solve this.
B- Reversed field order. Everything looks wrong when the fields are displayed in the wrong order... i.e. 2 1 4 3 instead of 1 2 3 4.
The way to fix this is to choose the right field order.

Glenn,

Hello, sorry, but I would really like to have this sorted out in my mind (and you are one of the first (only) people (person) that has actually taken on the challenge)!!!

I know all about field order and the like. That is not the issue.

Let me give you another radical example of why I say that either 'Deinterlace method' does MORE than it is supposed to or does not work the way I understand it to work.

The following works without fail i.e. I can replicate the issue no problem every time:

Vegas Project - HDV 1080-50i (PAL)
Vegas Project - Field order - Upper field first
Footage in Project - 1080-50i (from Sony FX1E captured with Vegas to .m2t)

Render the above to a MPEG2 file with the following render settings:

PAL DVD changing Aspect ratio to 16:9 display with Field order Interlaced, top field first.

Here is THE issue:

If 'Deinterlace method' is set to 'None' in the above project the resultant MPEG2 will have definite and noticable interlace flicker.

If 'Deinterlace method' is set to ANYTHING OTHER THAN 'None' i.e. 'Blend fields' there is no problem with the MPEG2 file.

And here is MY issue:

In the above example you will notice that at no point have I told Vegas to deinterlace my footage and the field order has not been changed anywhere in the project no in the render template SO WHY DOES THE SETTING OF 'DEINTERLACE METHOD' IMPACT ON THE RESULTING MPEG2 FILE? In my mind it should not make any difference to the resulting footage in this case.

I could understand that if I changed the field order in the render template to 'Progressive' for example that the setting of 'Deinterlace method' would make a difference i.e. I am then telling Vegas to deinterlace the footage at render time and use the method set in 'Deinterlace method'.

But, like I said before, in my example I am using the same field order throughout the project and rendering with the same field order so 'Deinterlace method' should not come into play BUT IT DOES and this is where I am possibly lacking understanding.

One thing that I don't understand is that I cannot be the only person in the whole wide world that has noticed this or has this issue (or does not understand the issue). Maybe this is why we see so much footage on our TV screens (over here anyway) that definitely has field order problems i.e. much 'shimmer' and 'shake'!!!

Regards,

Dale.

1. HDV is always upper field first.
2. Deinterlacing quality will depend on several things, but in great part, the deinterlace mode.
3. you haven't specified where you're monitoring the media.
4. You haven't specified your EXACT workflow and desired output format. Or if you have, I've missed it in the posts.

Until this post, I was unaware you were dealing with HDV footage, which makes a significant difference. You mentioned handing off a DV tape, which implied that you were shooting DV, and therefore, it's a different animal. If you're using DVCPro 50, how did you hand that off on a DV tape? Whose tool did you use to capture the DVCPro, and how did you get from HDV to DVCPro? Why did you go from HDV to DVC Pro?
Your render settings override your project settings.
what specifically are you doing from shoot, to capture, to print to tape?
I'm confused, because HDV, DVCPro shouldn't be related. Then you throw delivery on DVD into the mix, but you also comment on output to DVD.
so many variables, not enough information, it's difficult to answer the question. Or questions, of which there seem to be more than one?

Hello,

Sorry about the confusion.

I suppose that I should have started another thread for this.

My actual (initial) problem that started this thread is irrelevant to the current discussion.

Also the particulars of what footage etc. etc. are also of no consequence.

Let me state my query another way:

No matter what source material I am using - as long as the source is 'Interlaced, X field first', the Field order in the Vegas Project Properties is 'Interlaced, X field first', and the Field order in the Vegas Render Template is 'Interlaced, X field first', then it should not matter what the 'Deinterlace method' is set to in Vegas and it should not make any difference to my final output. That is my understanding. Is this correct?

Please just comment on the above for now so that we can do this step by step.

Regards,

Dale.

This is correct. It does not matter what you have your deinterlace setting value set to for your project, nor for your final render, unless you've got a project setting of "progressive" and you've dropped interlaced footage on the timeline.

Yep. Of course, Vegas could have a bug or be doing something really un-intuitive.

I haven't tried your workflow so I don't know if I would get your problem or not.

Good Morning, and thanks for the replies.

Now that is exactly what I was getting at i.e. in all of the scenarios that I described in this thread the setting of 'Deinterlace method' in your Project Properties SHOULD BE of no consequence BUT IT IS.

Basically (my) golden rules are:

When rendering HDV footage to ANYTHING ELSE - 'Deinterlace method' CANNOT be set to 'None'.

When rendering DV to ANYTHING ELSE - 'Deinterlace method' MUST be set to 'None'.

The problem, of course, comes in when you try and mix HDV footage with DV footage!

Thanks for the replies once again - I just needed to clear things up in my mind and I am relieved to see that (for now) my understanding and logic was correct.

For anyone that is interested I started compiling a sort of 'Black Book' for myself (basically started because of this issue).

Now that I know that it is not me that was doing something wrong with regard to this 'Deinterlace method' issue I make this document available to everyone and hope that it helps someone else that may be confused about certain issues and it may save others some time in the long run.

Basically it contains information relating to software that I have tested and/or use with Vegas.

The document was created with MS Windows' Wordpad (.rtf).

I update this document every so often when I come across issues and their solutions (at least the ones that work for me).

Please feel free to comment on the content and if there is anything that anyone can contribute or would like to see detailed in this document then please feel free to let me know.

The link to the document is:

http://www.audiovisualproductions.co...oBlackBook.rtf

Have fun.

And thank you DSE and Glenn for the trouble.

Regards,

Dale.

You're welcome for the trouble, but regarding your "black book" there is a lot of incorrect or misinformation written there.
here's what I'd recommend you do for safety sake.
Go to File/Project Properties, and on the upper left (I think you already found this earlier), go to Match Media Properties, click that, the dialog will ask you to browse for a file.
Choose an HDV converted file, ala CineForm.
That alone, will eliminate most of the "issues" you've got in your black book.
For example, your segment on titles is very incorrect. If you create titles that are 1440 x 1080, there won't be a problem with interlace flicker.
I suspect a lot of yoru problems are due to the various codecs, etc that you're trying or experimenting with. MainConcept, for instance, should never be part of the quotient. (Outside of Vegas built in tools)
When transcoding or downsampling, the render properties should always be set to "BEST" with HDV.
Settings in Vegas don't matter one whit when you capture. "Capture" is a misnomer left over from analog days, just like "Digitize" is. When you transfer files from the camcorder to the computer, it's merely a data transfer. No different in any way, from connecting a new hard drive to your computer, copying and pasting files to another hard drive. Except instead of being a round disk, the storage on the camcorder is a linear hard drive.
Many, many people do HDV to SD and HDV to HDCAM, or HD to hard drive delivery every day with Vegas, and don't have these problems. I'd recommend that you work within Vegas only for a project, not mess around with DVCPro anything, or Matrox or MainConcept, etc, and just let Vegas manage everything for you. Some codecs, like DVCPro, want to be UFF, some want to be LFF, but Vegas always knows what *it* wants to deal with.

Again DSE thanks for the reply.

However - I ALWAYS use the 'Match Media Settings' when starting a new project and that does not automatically solve the issues that I describe in my 'Black Book' particularly with regard to Interlacing.

Now that you mention it have you noticed that when you use 'Match Media Settings' and select a Cineform converted HDV file - the template that is automatically selected is '(unknown)' or '(undefined)' (one of the two - the exact description escapes me for now).

Even although the actual attributes of the Cineform converted file in the Project Properties are correctly detected one would think that Vegas would automatically select the 'HDV 1080-50i (1440x1080, 25.000 fps)' template but not so.

This has also always worried me because Vegas is obviously detecting something something in a Cineform converted file that I don't know about!

Put it this way - that document is the culmination of at least two years testing, rendering, testing again, making the final DVD, testing again etc. etc. (you get the picture). I just decided to start documenting my findings to save myself time and effort and eliminate guess work in the long run. I have made more test DVD's than I have camera hours or footage!!!

I will have another look at the title section (and make more test DVD's)!

Anyway if anyone else has similar problems at some stage I hope my document will at least give them a starting point for troubleshooting.

Believe you me the issues described in the document don't even compare to the problem that I found today (see my last post in the thread 'Vegas, 5.1 Surround, and DirectSound')!!!

Regards,

Dale.

You still haven't specified where you are monitoring the media. This alone is a huge factor in what we could be talking about.
I'm fairly well convinced it's that you're using outside, odd codecs that use various upper/lower field combinations, plus using HDV in which to do it.
We do this all day, every day, with HDV and uncompressed HD, with some of the DVCProHD starting to sneak in. None of your "black book" issues are issues for us, and we do roughly 90% (sometimes 100%) of our titling in Vegas, and all of our output is either to SD-DVD or HDCAM. In other words, we're working with multiple formats, but we keep it all in Vegas unless we send something to Boris or AE for compositing, and then we use uncompressed in all situations.
As far as CineForm, I believe that they're just not putting language in the header file that Vegas is reading. Vegas isn't looking at the actual frame, it's looking at the header info. I don't use CineForm all that much anymore, because it's just too dang hard keeping up with all their versions, telephone or email installation support, but on the two machines I'm running old versions of CineForm on, this isn't a problem at all.
No one else seems to be having these issues either, which leads me to suspect your workflow and codec installations/usage. As soon as you start introducing outside tools, this is where it can get very squirrely, and for obvious reasons, Sony won't support it.
No disrespect intended, but I don't find your "tests" compelling at all. There is no data about how your workflow specifically goes, the subjects are diverse and non-focused, no screenshots to illustrate the problems you're seeing, no explanation of where you're monitoring, no explanation of the final DVD output nor how you arrived at conclusions, there is just a lot of missing information, on top of which, you're mixing information, codecs, and what I feel is jumping to conclusions. Vegas is no where near perfect, but thousands of people are daily doing what you describe as difficult.
I'd suggest (if you want clear and detailed answers) that you put up a few seconds of an m2t you've shot.
then describe your exact workflow, and detail why you are deviating from any standard/in Vegas workflow.
Then describe all tools from hardward and software, that you've used in the process.
Put up a screenshot of your finished video to be analyzed. Let others see if they can match the workflow and problem.
At that point, we'll all have all the information needed, and can work towards a specific conclusion and solution, so that it's not based on supposition, mixed facts, and various workflows described as one workflow.

I'm sorry if my information seems a bit jumbled up - basically this thread started as one thing and then moved on to another topic - my fault.

I always preview my stuff using a normal, consumer, set top DVD and ordinary TV, as this will always be my final product (PAL).

I will create DVDA ready MPEG2 files and post them on one of my websites.

Unfortuanately if you are serious about having a look at some of the issues that I have noted you will have to download the files and then create a DVD using my files. Is this what you are recommending?

I will also post my workflow for each example detailing all media, project, and render settings etc.

Let me know if this is acceptable.

I must just tell you, by the way, that the some of the issues that I have noted manifested themselves on a 'clean' installation i.e. XP and Vegas (no other codecs, software, etc. etc. except for Cineform Connect HD) so I am not convinced that is a codec issue.

If nothing else I have now learned something new from you - I did not know that Vegas only read a file header - I was always under the impression that it actually analyzed the file or at least the first frame. This explains much to me e.g. when rendering a file using Boris RED 3GL and ensuring that the uncompressed Boris output is, for example, 'Interlaced, bottom field first' Vegas always insists that the file is 'Interlaced, top field first' when using the 'Match Media Settings'. I know the Boris file in this example is actually 'Interlaced, bottom field first' from doing various tests and have to change the field order in the Vegas project. Now I know why although it is dissapointing.

Dale.

Actually Douglas - you have now made me even more curious.

You would not happen to have the details / layout / example of a media file header?

Regards,

Dale.

that in and of itself speaks VOLUMES about the problems you're having. HDV downsampled on the fly to SD looks horrible.
ALWAYS work in HD until the last possible second, then transcode to SD on final render. Never drop HDV into an SD timeline and expect quality. Never preview HD on an SD monitor and expect anything looking decent. There is a lot of processing involved, and Vegas can't do it on the fly and be clean/clear.

Good Morning!

NO, NO, NO - I seem to really have a problem explaining myself lately.

Sorry - by 'monitoring the media' I thought you meant 'how am I monitoring my final output'.

My final output is to SD DVD for SD TV and this is where I judge the quality of my work as this is what I would distribute.

I 'monitor the media' either on a secondary windows display (for HDV or HDV to SD DV) or on a flat screen high quality TV via a Canopus ADVC 100 (for SD DV or HDV to SD DV).

However - mostly my footage looks fine 'when monitored' - the issues that I have raised appear on the final product i.e. SD DVD and SD TV - and - as this IS the final product - it does not matter what I 'monitor' on - the final product is what counts.

Anyway - do you have a sample of a media file header (see my last post to you)?

Dale.

Unless you use a tool like G-Spot, the header is invisible to you.
You're welcome to download G-spot or other file examination tool and look at the header yourself. There is also a VFW file examination tool out there, but I've forgotten what it is called. There might be another way to view it, but I'm not aware of it.

Hi,

I had a look for this information after posting my initial query to you and found LOTS of stuff on Microsoft's website.

Like I said before I had tried G Spot and downloaded the latest version available after our previous correspondece.

It would appear that G Spot attempts to read the header of a .AVI file but it obviously does not recognise a lot of the FOURCC information (I think that is the term) particularly with regard to the interlace or field order information.

From what I gather (after a brief read through of some of the stuff on the Microsoft site) interlaced video has to be specially dealt with and I'm pretty sure that it is for this reason that Vegas sometimes does not correctly detect the field order of a file (possibly because the other software or codec manufacturers are not strictly adhering to these standards - I'm not sure why - but it is at least comforting to know that I can trust my own judgement when in comes to the field order of a file - I tended to always trust Vegas' judgement and question my own - even when I absolutely certain as to the field order of the file).

Anyway - let me go and shoot some HDV footage for you to prove to you that I am not going nuts with my 'Deinterlace method' issue!

Regards,

Dale.

This is interesting because I was actually wondering what is best for tv, so I found a help page in vegas. It says for dvd TV display use upper field first.

And no progressive scan for viewing on PC.

When I go to save a non progressive file to dvd in mpeg-2 format; to be viewed on a SD TV, the default it gives me for field order under the video tab is Interlaced, bottom fielf first.

Should this not be set to top field first if viewed on a SD TV?

bottom field first is the same as lower field right?

Hi Neil,

I had forgotten about this thread (never actually uploaded the files for demonstration purposes).

Anyway - to answer your question - the golden rule - bottom line - do not change the field order of a file!

DV is always interlaced, lower / even / bottom field first so when rendering to MPEG2 for DVD use interlaced, lower / even / bottom field first.

HDV (if not progressive scan) is interlaced, upper / odd / top field first.

As far as I know a normal (not progressive scan capable) TV and / or DVD player does not care whether it is upper or lower field first.

Regards,

Dale.

After replying to Neil's message yesterday I realised that I had not posted the files as promised for Douglas to have a look at.

The links are:

http://www.audiovisualproductions.co...end_Fields.mpg

and

http://www.audiovisualproductions.co.za/video/None.mpg

Workflow:

Copy .m2t file from FX1E using Cineform Connect HD
Convert .m2t to .avi using Cineform Connect HD using options 'Large' and 'Interlaced'
Open file in Vegas after matching project settings to media (using 'Match Media Settings') - no other changes except for de-interlace method as described below
Render to DVDA PAL video stream ensuring that field order is set to 'Upper Field First' - first with de-interlace method in project properties set to 'None' ('None.mpg') and then with de-interlace method in project properties set to 'Blend Fields' ('Blend_Fields.mpg').

Unfortuanately both of these files have to be put onto a PAL DVD and viewed on a TV to see the problem that I described in this thread (I am assuming that you have a multi-system DVD player and TV).

You will notice that the file 'Blend_Fields.mpg' displays noticeable interlace flicker where as the file 'None.mpg' has no interlace flicker at all.

Both of these files were created on a newly installed workstation (about two weeks ago) i.e. other than Windows XP Pro there is nothing else on this workstation except for Sony Vegas 6.0d i.e. no other codecs installed other than Cineform and Vegas standard codecs.

Based on this I stand by my 'Video Black Book' details with regard to converting HDV to SD DV using Vegas unless someone can give me an explanation as to why when using 'Blend Fields' (or 'Interpolate Fields') is interlace flicker evident.

Once again - I am not asking for the footage to be de-interlaced at any point anyway - so why should the setting of de-interlace method make any difference at all?

Regards,

Dale.

Why are you rendering to UFF?? SD MPEG is LFF. Of course messing with the fields will create this issue. Can't download your files now as I'm on dialup for the next 10 days or so, but that alone is a pointer to problems.

Hello again.

Sorry - but I was always under the impression that you would get this issue if you did in fact change the field order i.e. my Cineform HDV footage is interlaced, upper field first, so I render using upper field first. Is this not the golden rule?

While waiting for your input I will render to SD MPEG2 with lower field first and see if that makes a difference.

Regards,

Dale.

Dale, best advice is that you use the templates in play from Sony. That'll assure you don't mess up. Based on other posts, you seem to like to tinker, and that's fine. But those templates are there for a reason; it prevents people from blaming Vegas for their own errors.
HDV-UFF
SD MPEG-LFF
Some SD cards use UFF, but it's the exception, not the rule.

Either way, use the templates. The ONLY thing you need change in the templates is change "GOOD" to "BEST" for best output results from HDV-acquired media.
Any test comments would need to be based on factory templates, not render settings of your own creation. Otherwise, there are just too many variables and potential errors, as this thread would suggest.

Hello,

OK - well - just for the record - changing the field order - or at least - rendering to an MPEG2 file with bottom field first from HDV source that is interlaced, top field first, makes no difference (although I was quite sure that changing the field order would muck up BOTH outputs) i.e. with de-interlace method set to 'None' - visible interlace flicker - with de-interlace method set to either 'Blend Fields' or 'Interpolate' - no interlace flicker and smooth video.

I know what you are saying about the templates (and yes I do like messing around) but even with a clean installation using standard templates (like I used to create these files) this anomaly occurs and I am just trying to find out WHY? I mean that there is no problem with my footage - I know the workarounds - but I have that kind of mind - I do need to know WHY?

I have also found another strange anomaly that nobody else seems to have (or at least do not think they have) i.e. if I render out to Windows AVI uncompressed and specify 'Progressive' as the field order Vegas insists that the resulting file is 'Upper Field First' when using 'Match Media Settings' in the project properties.

Actually it does not matter what field order I use or change to when rendering to an uncompressed Windows AVI (using the standard Vegas 'Default (uncompressed)' template - 'Match Media Settings' in the project properties ALWAYS detects the field order as 'Upper Field First' and apparantely a few other people on this forum are quite sure that whatever setting they use for field order in the render template for Windows AVI uncompressed that is the setting that Vegas detects.

Having said that I have checked the resulting output files and although I cannot check whether an output file is either upper field first or lower field first I can tell you that the output files that are created by Vegas are in fact interlaced (if selected) or progressive (if selected) so Vegas is actually creating the correct output that you have selected - it just does not correctly detect the field order of it's own output files and on this point I am just wondering if this is a standard Windows AVI codec issue i.e. maybe an uncompressed Windows AVI file is supposed to ALWAYS be 'Interlaced, Upper Field First', and this is why it's properties are being misreported to Vegas.

Also - I am still of the opinion - that when you change the format of a file i.e. for this example changing HDV to SD DV Vegas FIRST de-interlaces the file and then re-interlaces it to create the new file as per your selected format and method. Why else would the de-interlace method make a difference in the above excercise?

By the way - regarding your VASST book entitled 'Boris Effects' - does this cover Boris RED 3GL 3D Compositing? (I figure that because you are one of the sponsors of this site asking this question should be OK here). I am thinking of ordering it from you - just wanted to know if it's any good (I am only able to do basic compositing etc. as I battle to get my head around the Boris workflow).

Regards,

Dale.

I don't think this is true. I had horrible flicker in a clip that was reversed.

Then I changed the setting for the Video Project Deinterlace mode to interpolate and the flicker was gone. The render settings were exactly the same.

So the Video Project Settings do affect the render as output.