HD content burned onto a standard DVD playable with either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Players?

Scott Jaco · September 2nd, 2006, 10:19 PM

I just got back from testing my HD-DVD at Best Buy. The problems with the menus remain, they don't function.

Pressing Stop & Start bypasses the menu & the movie actually plays back perfectly in HD but there is no sound! The H.264 disk I burned had the opposite problem, I could hear the sound but no video.

It's just too buggy right now. I would wait and burn HD to a blu ray or HD DVD disk when they come down in price.

Trying to cheat by burning HD content to standard DVD media just isn't going to cut it for professionals with paying clients.

Kevin Shaw · September 2nd, 2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jaco

Trying to cheat by burning HD content to standard DVD media just isn't going to cut it for professionals with paying clients.

But note that this has apparently worked fine for some videographers for a while now using the Avel-type DVD players and HD content compressed in Windows Media format. It's not a very elegant solution because you don't get standard DVD menus, but you can play the content just fine using a simple file menu access system.

Scott Jaco · September 2nd, 2006, 11:01 PM

What are "Avel type" DVD players?

Kevin Shaw · September 3rd, 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jaco

What are "Avel type" DVD players?

Scott: see this link -

http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=7

These are special DVD players which can play high-definition content from red-laser discs in Windows Media format (and possibly others). The catch is that you don't get traditional DVD-style menus; you just put the video on the disc as a data item and access it through a simple computer-like onscreen menu. Do a search on these forums and you should find more about this option, which is basically a compromise until HD-DVD and Blu-ray become more mainstream.

Nate Weaver · September 3rd, 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Jaco

Pressing Stop & Start bypasses the menu & the movie actually plays back perfectly in HD but there is no sound!

A quick Google just now tells me that the Toshiba only reads HD-DVDs with MPEG2, not H264.

Scott Jaco · September 3rd, 2006, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

A quick Google just now tells me that the Toshiba only reads HD-DVDs with MPEG2, not H264.

Yes, I am aware of that. That is why I encoded this latest HD-DVD w/ Mpeg2 compression. It did playback video but with no sound. This appears to be a software issue w/ DVD Studio Pro 4.0

This software came out before the HD-DVD players so there was no testing for compatability.

Scott Jaco · September 5th, 2006, 06:05 AM

Just found this link

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304086

This might explain why I couldn't hear the audio on my HD-DVD.

Apparently if you use an Intel Mac to encode Dolby 2.0 (AC-3) audio, it won't work.

This only applies to HD-DVD projects. Regular DVD projects work fine with Dolby 2.0 (AC-3).

The solution is to use uncompressed PCM audio.

I'll try this next time I burn an HD-DVD.

Tom Roper · September 6th, 2006, 10:42 PM

There is a thread on authoring to HD-DVD disks on standard 4.7gb red laser DVD or dual layer at the AVSFORUM.COM located in the HD-DVD software discussion, a sticky at the top. I can confirm it's working. The tools are basic but relatively inexpensive.

In nutshell, you need Womble MPEG Video Wizard or MPEG2VCR to transcode (no rendering) from m2t transport stream or other format to mpeg2 program stream. At that point, the mpeg can be loaded into Ulead Movie Factory 5 which then authors the video much like a regular DVD with chapters and simple menus, without rendering. The final step requires Nero version 7.2 or Roxio to burn the HVDVD_TS folder to disk. You select the checkbox for X-Box compatibility mode.

I have the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player and the above procedure if carefully followed according to the steps listed in the AVSFORUM thread really does work 100%

I also use the aforementioned I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 which in most respects is a much more flexible networked and friendly way to stream out files to your HDTV monitor for previewing, and works with many formats like WMV9, Divx, AVI, and others. The LinkPlayer is much less expensive, and now carried in stock locally by some Comp-USA stores, a real shocker to me since I never thought it would achieve mainstream distribution. The picture quality between the Toshiba HD-A1 and I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer 2 is overall about equal if you do the "filter mod" described on page 13 of the LinkPlayer FAQ sticky at AVSFORUM.COM under the section for SD-DVD players. What I'm comparing however is not one for one, since after the filter mod the 720p or 1080i component output of the LinkPlayer is superior to the Toshiba component output which is mediocre at 1080i and abysmal at 720p. The LinkPlayer is much better (after the filter mod), so much so the output compares favorably to the HDMI output from the Toshiba A1. On that count, the Toshiba 1080i HDMI will enjoy a very slight edge in picture quality over the I-O Data 720p/1080i component output, but again the Toshiba 720p even from the HDMI is very soft, even said to be derived by downsampling the 1080 interlaced lines to 540, effectively throwing away 1/2 the resolution, before resampling to 720 vertical lines. It certainly appears that way. But as long as you have a monitor that accepts 1080i well, you will enjoy excellent picture quality from the Toshiba over its HDMI.

For a client, authoring a mpeg2 file to HD-DVD video probably makes more sense in the long run than making them buy a LinkPlayer. The Toshiba is seemingly strict about what it requires to make it play your home brews, but for the end user it's much more simple and robust than the extremely versatile but quirky LinkPlayer which is more suited to a committed computer geek. The HD-DVD player would seem an easier sell to the client since once he's finished viewing his wedding videos, he's able to use it into the future for Hollywood HD-DVD titles, and you are able to provide a simple menu structure and chapters.

This will all get sorted out as better software tools become available, and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray burning hardware. But for now, you can get it done on the HD-DVD format using regular DVD media.

Scott Jaco · September 7th, 2006, 12:13 PM

**Success**

I’ve finally got this damn HD-DVD thing working. I got it to work on the Toshiba A1 HD-DVD player.

Here is what you do if you are using Final Cut Studio….

Encode your video timeline with Compressor “HD Mpeg-2 30min 19Mbps” preset. Make sure to change the frame rate to 59.97. The default is 50 which won’t work.

Encode your audio from FCP as an AIFF file. (Do not use Compressor to make it Dolby 2.0 or AC3) just leave it uncompressed.

Use DVD Studio Pro 4.0 and switch the preset to HD-DVD. Import your video & audio assets as usual and create your chapter markers. Don’t bother with menus. They don’t work on HD-DVD players. Just set your video asset as “First Play” and delete the top menu.

This works perfectly.

2 drawbacks to this method. You can’t use DVD menus, but this shouldn’t be that big of a deal since your chapter makers will allow you to skip ahead in the movie.

Second drawback is DVD capacity. A Dual Layer DVD 8.5 GB will only hold about 50 min. of HD footage so you will need to split your videos across 2 disks if you go over.

Hope this helped! It took a lot of trial & error!

Dave Lammey · September 22nd, 2006, 12:09 PM

Scott: can you elaborate on what hardware you used? i.d. which computer, which dvd burner ... thanks.

John C. Chu · September 22nd, 2006, 12:59 PM

Great job, and thanks for the heads up. [I hope Apple secretly rolls HD-DVD support in the next version of iDVD in 2007].

Now, the big question is...will Blu-Ray players support HD content burned on regular red laser DVDs?

Scott Jaco · October 12th, 2006, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lammey

Scott: can you elaborate on what hardware you used? i.d. which computer, which dvd burner ... thanks.

My Intel Imac's internal DVD burner. Nothing special there.

Scott Jaco · October 12th, 2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John C. Chu

Great job, and thanks for the heads up. [I hope Apple secretly rolls HD-DVD support in the next version of iDVD in 2007].

Now, the big question is...will Blu-Ray players support HD content burned on regular red laser DVDs?

I tried it on Blu-Ray, it won't even recognize it as a DVD. For now, it only works on HD-DVD players.

John C. Chu · October 12th, 2006, 07:55 AM

This whole format war really sucks for the consumer and content producers.[Ad naseaum] But it is so true.

Ever since I got my 16:9 tube HDTV back in 2002, I've been waiting for a hi-def movie player of some sort.

D-VHS was interesting...but the player and movies were both expensive and limited in terms of selection. However, if the studios had supported it, I would have gotten one.[This is from a LaserDisc fan that has probably more than $4,000 worth of LD's --forty bucks a pop x 100 discs]

As of now I'm waiting to buy the next generation DVD player.

HD-DVD is more affordable. And one can make HD-DVD's now on regular old 4.7 gigs DVD-R's. A big selling point for me. All I need is the HDDVD player and a HDV camcorder. But, without "studio support", I'm afraid I will be stuck with a player without the movies I really want.

As for Blu-Ray--they have some great movies that I want but the only player currently available is from Samsung at $1,000! And it won't play home grown HD on red laser DVD-R's. Even if they drop the price down to $499 to match the HD-DVD players, I would still like the HD on red laser DVD-R capability.

I can't afford to buy both players, so I will either wait, or "gamble" on HD-DVD sometime this Christmas.

Most people will wait, I imagine.

Thomas Smet · October 12th, 2006, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

A quick Google just now tells me that the Toshiba only reads HD-DVDs with MPEG2, not H264.

Actually all HD-DVD movies use VC1 for their compression which is why they look so much better than Blu-ray movies right now. I'm not sure if VC1 can be made from an Apple computer or not but that is the best format to use on HD-DVD right now. I'm not sure if H264 is exactly the same thing as AVCHD either. The psecs sayd mpeg2, VC1 and AVCHD but no mention of H264. Maybe H264 is the same as AVCHD but I'm sure there may just be a tiny difference that makes the HD-DVD player not recognize the video content.

VC1 is a form of WMV compression that has to be formatted the right way.

September 6th, 2006, 10:42 PM	#23
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	HDV for HD-DVD is working There is a thread on authoring to HD-DVD disks on standard 4.7gb red laser DVD or dual layer at the AVSFORUM.COM located in the HD-DVD software discussion, a sticky at the top. I can confirm it's working. The tools are basic but relatively inexpensive. In nutshell, you need Womble MPEG Video Wizard or MPEG2VCR to transcode (no rendering) from m2t transport stream or other format to mpeg2 program stream. At that point, the mpeg can be loaded into Ulead Movie Factory 5 which then authors the video much like a regular DVD with chapters and simple menus, without rendering. The final step requires Nero version 7.2 or Roxio to burn the HVDVD_TS folder to disk. You select the checkbox for X-Box compatibility mode. I have the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player and the above procedure if carefully followed according to the steps listed in the AVSFORUM thread really does work 100% I also use the aforementioned I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer2 which in most respects is a much more flexible networked and friendly way to stream out files to your HDTV monitor for previewing, and works with many formats like WMV9, Divx, AVI, and others. The LinkPlayer is much less expensive, and now carried in stock locally by some Comp-USA stores, a real shocker to me since I never thought it would achieve mainstream distribution. The picture quality between the Toshiba HD-A1 and I-O Data AVeL LinkPlayer 2 is overall about equal if you do the "filter mod" described on page 13 of the LinkPlayer FAQ sticky at AVSFORUM.COM under the section for SD-DVD players. What I'm comparing however is not one for one, since after the filter mod the 720p or 1080i component output of the LinkPlayer is superior to the Toshiba component output which is mediocre at 1080i and abysmal at 720p. The LinkPlayer is much better (after the filter mod), so much so the output compares favorably to the HDMI output from the Toshiba A1. On that count, the Toshiba 1080i HDMI will enjoy a very slight edge in picture quality over the I-O Data 720p/1080i component output, but again the Toshiba 720p even from the HDMI is very soft, even said to be derived by downsampling the 1080 interlaced lines to 540, effectively throwing away 1/2 the resolution, before resampling to 720 vertical lines. It certainly appears that way. But as long as you have a monitor that accepts 1080i well, you will enjoy excellent picture quality from the Toshiba over its HDMI. For a client, authoring a mpeg2 file to HD-DVD video probably makes more sense in the long run than making them buy a LinkPlayer. The Toshiba is seemingly strict about what it requires to make it play your home brews, but for the end user it's much more simple and robust than the extremely versatile but quirky LinkPlayer which is more suited to a committed computer geek. The HD-DVD player would seem an easier sell to the client since once he's finished viewing his wedding videos, he's able to use it into the future for Hollywood HD-DVD titles, and you are able to provide a simple menu structure and chapters. This will all get sorted out as better software tools become available, and HD-DVD and Blu-Ray burning hardware. But for now, you can get it done on the HD-DVD format using regular DVD media.

September 7th, 2006, 12:13 PM	#24
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	Success I’ve finally got this damn HD-DVD thing working. I got it to work on the Toshiba A1 HD-DVD player. Here is what you do if you are using Final Cut Studio…. Encode your video timeline with Compressor “HD Mpeg-2 30min 19Mbps” preset. Make sure to change the frame rate to 59.97. The default is 50 which won’t work. Encode your audio from FCP as an AIFF file. (Do not use Compressor to make it Dolby 2.0 or AC3) just leave it uncompressed. Use DVD Studio Pro 4.0 and switch the preset to HD-DVD. Import your video & audio assets as usual and create your chapter markers. Don’t bother with menus. They don’t work on HD-DVD players. Just set your video asset as “First Play” and delete the top menu. This works perfectly. 2 drawbacks to this method. You can’t use DVD menus, but this shouldn’t be that big of a deal since your chapter makers will allow you to skip ahead in the movie. Second drawback is DVD capacity. A Dual Layer DVD 8.5 GB will only hold about 50 min. of HD footage so you will need to split your videos across 2 disks if you go over. Hope this helped! It took a lot of trial & error! Last edited by Scott Jaco; September 7th, 2006 at 06:10 PM.

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September 2nd, 2006, 10:19 PM	#16
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	I just got back from testing my HD-DVD at Best Buy. The problems with the menus remain, they don't function. Pressing Stop & Start bypasses the menu & the movie actually plays back perfectly in HD but there is no sound! The H.264 disk I burned had the opposite problem, I could hear the sound but no video. It's just too buggy right now. I would wait and burn HD to a blu ray or HD DVD disk when they come down in price. Trying to cheat by burning HD content to standard DVD media just isn't going to cut it for professionals with paying clients.

September 2nd, 2006, 11:01 PM	#18
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	What are "Avel type" DVD players?

September 5th, 2006, 06:05 AM	#22
Scott Jaco Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 471	Just found this link http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304086 This might explain why I couldn't hear the audio on my HD-DVD. Apparently if you use an Intel Mac to encode Dolby 2.0 (AC-3) audio, it won't work. This only applies to HD-DVD projects. Regular DVD projects work fine with Dolby 2.0 (AC-3). The solution is to use uncompressed PCM audio. I'll try this next time I burn an HD-DVD.

September 22nd, 2006, 12:09 PM	#25
Dave Lammey Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Simsbury, CT Posts: 247	Scott: can you elaborate on what hardware you used? i.d. which computer, which dvd burner ... thanks.

September 22nd, 2006, 12:59 PM	#26
John C. Chu Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rego Park , NYC Posts: 665	Great job, and thanks for the heads up. [I hope Apple secretly rolls HD-DVD support in the next version of iDVD in 2007]. Now, the big question is...will Blu-Ray players support HD content burned on regular red laser DVDs?

October 12th, 2006, 07:55 AM	#29
John C. Chu Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rego Park , NYC Posts: 665	This whole format war really sucks for the consumer and content producers.[Ad naseaum] But it is so true. Ever since I got my 16:9 tube HDTV back in 2002, I've been waiting for a hi-def movie player of some sort. D-VHS was interesting...but the player and movies were both expensive and limited in terms of selection. However, if the studios had supported it, I would have gotten one.[This is from a LaserDisc fan that has probably more than $4,000 worth of LD's --forty bucks a pop x 100 discs] As of now I'm waiting to buy the next generation DVD player. HD-DVD is more affordable. And one can make HD-DVD's now on regular old 4.7 gigs DVD-R's. A big selling point for me. All I need is the HDDVD player and a HDV camcorder. But, without "studio support", I'm afraid I will be stuck with a player without the movies I really want. As for Blu-Ray--they have some great movies that I want but the only player currently available is from Samsung at $1,000! And it won't play home grown HD on red laser DVD-R's. Even if they drop the price down to $499 to match the HD-DVD players, I would still like the HD on red laser DVD-R capability. I can't afford to buy both players, so I will either wait, or "gamble" on HD-DVD sometime this Christmas. Most people will wait, I imagine.