4:4:4 P2 Camera at DVinfo.net

David Kirlew · October 23rd, 2005, 04:22 PM

I've searched the forum for an answer to this and I'm if Panasonic has any future plans to release a 4:4:4 P2 camera. If not is it a data rate issue or some other reason I don't know?

Matthew Wauhkonen · October 23rd, 2005, 06:10 PM

Why do you need 4:4:4?

Star Wars Episode I and III were both 4:2:2. I think only two features ever (Sin City, Episode III) were shot in 4:4:4.

Other advancements (higher resolution than 960X720 on the varicam, for instance, 10 bit color even) seem much more important. The naked eye really can't tell the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 so easily, and for greenscreening work--with interpolation--4:2:2 is more than good enough, as proved by the fact that Sky Captain, Star Wars, etc. were all virtually entirely greenscreened. (Although, I admit Sin City and Episode III did have the best compositing work, possibly as a result of 4:4:4 color.)

And no, it won't happen soon. You'd get a minute or two at most on a tape and the data rate would probably still be too high. Double SDI outputs (on the cinealta) are really the only solution.

Dean Harrington · October 23rd, 2005, 06:30 PM

If Andromeda and sculptorHD were ever to really get off the ground, this might be a good solution to get 4.4.4 in the HVX200.

David Kirlew · October 23rd, 2005, 06:34 PM

It's not that I necessarily need a 4:4:4 camera. I'm just curious.

Hayden Rivers · October 23rd, 2005, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Wauhkonen

Why do you need 4:4:4?

Star Wars Episode I and III were both 4:2:2. I think only two features ever (Sin City, Episode III) were shot in 4:4:4.

Actually, Episode I was shot on 35mm film, Episode II was shot on 4:2:2 using the F900, and Episode III was shot on 4:4:4 using the F950.

And personally, I think Episode III looks MUCH better than Episode II. The skin in Episode II looks very much like it was shot on video.

I look forward to Superman Returns which is being shot on the new Panavision Genesis camera with a 35mm sensor. I have to hand it to George Lucas. When Episode II came out, he said "This is as bad as it's ever going to look. It's only going to get better."

Jon Miova · October 23rd, 2005, 09:16 PM

check this link

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/aug04...ral/page1.html

For an interesting articles about the Collateral movie shooting using HD cam.

Peter Richardson · October 24th, 2005, 12:02 AM

Hayden--Where did you hear Ep I was shot on 35? I was at Skywalker when they were finishing the film and everyone there seemed to think the film was shot on HD.

Peter

Barry Green · October 24th, 2005, 01:15 AM

Episode one was 35mm film. Lucas snuck in one shot that was from the first version of the CineAlta (the "midichlorian" scene on the balcony).

Episode II was the first all-digital film from LucasFilm. Wasn't the first CineAlta film released though; the David Mullen-lensed "Jackpot" beat it to the screens.

John Vincent · October 24th, 2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Episode II was the first all-digital film from LucasFilm. Wasn't the first CineAlta film released though; the David Mullen-lensed "Jackpot" beat it to the screens.

I also believe that 'Jason X' was shot with the very same camera(s) that would then shoot Episope II... this does bring up an interesting question - how many theatrically released films were shot on video? It's still a pretty small number I think....
John

Jon Miova · October 24th, 2005, 12:41 PM

In the link above about Collateral shooting:

Quote:

The Thomson Viper has been lauded for its 4:4:4 uncompressed raw-data FilmStream mode, in which the pure image signal is sent to a hard drive, but Cameron found that this mode of shooting posed several practical problems. Because the signal undergoes no processing and is viewed on a monitor in “raw” form, the resultant images have a sickly, greenish hue. “That yellow-green image didn’t represent anything we could see by eye,” says Cameron, “and that made it impossible to judge the image from the monitor.

Is this true with all 4:4:4 that exist and will be made ??

Quote:

"Basically, HD shooting has to do with signal-to-noise ratio,” continues Cameron. “In film, photochemical magic takes place in the falloff and in the highlights, but HD reacts very differently — once you start pushing the gain, you have to carefully monitor your signal-to-noise ratio. Our biggest concern was how to deal with the noise in scenes that show Tom and Jamie in the cab, and those scenes comprise about one-third of the movie. We discovered we had to increase the signal — meaning the amount of light — on the actors’ faces to an acceptable IRE level [registered on a waveform monitor], knowing that we’d later bring it down digitally with Power Windows in color correction before the film-out. What looked great to the eye didn’t necessarily translate into a good-looking close-up on the final film-out (.....) “We’d light beautiful night exteriors that looked amazing and natural and had so much detail, but when we went in for the close-ups, we had to overlight the actors to reduce the noise on their faces. On the monitor, it looked horrible and incredibly overlit. It was very hard to wrap my head around what we were doing, and it went against every instinct I have as a cinematographer.

Is this applicable on "smaller" camera such the HVX or only on high-end camera ? Nightshots are different that much from film to digital ?

Dean Harrington · October 25th, 2005, 04:10 AM

How 4.4.4 looks on a monitor would be a good question for the folks at Reel Stream. I'm just at this moment asking over there. Here's some indication from a similar question and answer from Juan at Reel Stream, "The S-Video from the power book will show the uncompressed footage on an NTSC monitor just fine. The same works if you have a mac mini with a DVI-SVideo adapter($19 from Apple) and use the NTSC monitor as a primary display."
I'd love to get some kind of idea if SculptureHD can display clarity (I heard that the image is displayed over exposed) on a laptop computer's LCD.

Dean Harrington · October 25th, 2005, 07:59 PM

Juan, "The viewfinder on the cam of coursed shows the DV image. This DV image has at least 2-2.5 stops less of dynamic range on the high end, but it mostly depends on what LUT you are using.

The monitor on the cam is still very useful while you are shooting if you are sitting a the camera. However, to actually see what you will be recording, you want to check the uncompressed monitor and make exposure adjustments with it.

However, once you use a particular LUT a couple of times you will be able to adjust exposure for Andromeda on the camera as well, it's just a matter of knowing how much to stop down."

Cheers,
Juan

It seems reasonable that with a bit of experience behind this kind of workflow, it's possible to get exactly what you need on a shoot.

Hse Kha · October 26th, 2005, 08:35 PM

Are the Sony Cine Alta 900 and 950 cameras 1920x1080 or 1440x1080?

Dan Diaconu · October 26th, 2005, 10:50 PM

900 is 1440x1080 and 950 is 1920x1080.

Barry Green · October 27th, 2005, 02:19 AM

Well... depends on how you're asking the question. Both CAMERAS are 1920x1080. If you output HD-SDI you'd get the full 1920x1080.

The HDCAM recording deck on the 900 downsamples to 1440x1080.

HDCAM-SR keeps the full 1920x1080 frame, IIRC.

October 23rd, 2005, 04:22 PM	#1
David Kirlew Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 25	4:4:4 P2 Camera I've searched the forum for an answer to this and I'm if Panasonic has any future plans to release a 4:4:4 P2 camera. If not is it a data rate issue or some other reason I don't know? __________________ David Kirlew

October 23rd, 2005, 06:30 PM	#3
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	Reel-Stream...... If Andromeda and sculptorHD were ever to really get off the ground, this might be a good solution to get 4.4.4 in the HVX200.

October 23rd, 2005, 06:34 PM	#4
David Kirlew Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 25	4:4:4 P2 camera It's not that I necessarily need a 4:4:4 camera. I'm just curious. __________________ David Kirlew

October 25th, 2005, 04:10 AM	#11
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	SculptureHD..... How 4.4.4 looks on a monitor would be a good question for the folks at Reel Stream. I'm just at this moment asking over there. Here's some indication from a similar question and answer from Juan at Reel Stream, "The S-Video from the power book will show the uncompressed footage on an NTSC monitor just fine. The same works if you have a mac mini with a DVI-SVideo adapter($19 from Apple) and use the NTSC monitor as a primary display." I'd love to get some kind of idea if SculptureHD can display clarity (I heard that the image is displayed over exposed) on a laptop computer's LCD.

October 25th, 2005, 07:59 PM	#12
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	From Reel Stream..... Juan, "The viewfinder on the cam of coursed shows the DV image. This DV image has at least 2-2.5 stops less of dynamic range on the high end, but it mostly depends on what LUT you are using. The monitor on the cam is still very useful while you are shooting if you are sitting a the camera. However, to actually see what you will be recording, you want to check the uncompressed monitor and make exposure adjustments with it. However, once you use a particular LUT a couple of times you will be able to adjust exposure for Andromeda on the camera as well, it's just a matter of knowing how much to stop down." Cheers, Juan It seems reasonable that with a bit of experience behind this kind of workflow, it's possible to get exactly what you need on a shoot.

October 23rd, 2005, 06:10 PM	#2
Matthew Wauhkonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 285	Why do you need 4:4:4? Star Wars Episode I and III were both 4:2:2. I think only two features ever (Sin City, Episode III) were shot in 4:4:4. Other advancements (higher resolution than 960X720 on the varicam, for instance, 10 bit color even) seem much more important. The naked eye really can't tell the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 so easily, and for greenscreening work--with interpolation--4:2:2 is more than good enough, as proved by the fact that Sky Captain, Star Wars, etc. were all virtually entirely greenscreened. (Although, I admit Sin City and Episode III did have the best compositing work, possibly as a result of 4:4:4 color.) And no, it won't happen soon. You'd get a minute or two at most on a tape and the data rate would probably still be too high. Double SDI outputs (on the cinealta) are really the only solution.

October 23rd, 2005, 09:16 PM	#6
Jon Miova Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 47	check this link http://www.theasc.com/magazine/aug04...ral/page1.html For an interesting articles about the Collateral movie shooting using HD cam.

October 24th, 2005, 12:02 AM	#7
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Hayden--Where did you hear Ep I was shot on 35? I was at Skywalker when they were finishing the film and everyone there seemed to think the film was shot on HD. Peter

October 24th, 2005, 01:15 AM	#8
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Episode one was 35mm film. Lucas snuck in one shot that was from the first version of the CineAlta (the "midichlorian" scene on the balcony). Episode II was the first all-digital film from LucasFilm. Wasn't the first CineAlta film released though; the David Mullen-lensed "Jackpot" beat it to the screens.

October 26th, 2005, 08:35 PM	#13
Hse Kha Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New England Posts: 195	Are the Sony Cine Alta 900 and 950 cameras 1920x1080 or 1440x1080?

October 26th, 2005, 10:50 PM	#14
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	900 is 1440x1080 and 950 is 1920x1080.

October 27th, 2005, 02:19 AM	#15
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Well... depends on how you're asking the question. Both CAMERAS are 1920x1080. If you output HD-SDI you'd get the full 1920x1080. The HDCAM recording deck on the 900 downsamples to 1440x1080. HDCAM-SR keeps the full 1920x1080 frame, IIRC.