Cineporter vs. 60gig iPod at DVinfo.net

January 6th, 2006, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaku Ito

Now that I have two 4GB P2 cards, the space runs out very quick. As not much things I shoot, I'm backing up the data to iPod 60GB very often. So if you folks are buying the cards (not like 2 4GB P2 cards are bundled free like me), I would recommend to buy one 8GB card for now, reserve the slot for connecting a cineporter.

Important things to say first -
1) I'm sure the quality of the cineporter and reasons for using it will blow the iPod out of the water.
2) I'm starting this thread as a central place to talk about these two options. I've read other posts here and there about both of them, but at this point not enough to make any decisions on which one I'll pursue (if either).
3) This thread is a product of something Kaku brought up in "HVX200/Mac - Who's Taking this Route?"
(direct link here to this thread here - http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=57531)

So what would be the pro's and con's for each of these storage solutions?

iPod -
Pro's:
1) cheap
2) seems to be working
3) easy to find
4) available now

Con's:
1) not really meant for this purpose
2) could be some issues?

Cineporter -
Pro's:
1) specifically designed for the HVX200 and P2
2) stores more

Con's:
1) expensive (when compared to an iPod)

That's what I'm thinking right now, today, this hour.

Marty Hudzik · January 6th, 2006, 11:09 AM

My first concern with the Ipod solution is battery life. Sure a typical ipod can last for 10-12 hours of music. That sounds great. But my logic tells me that when playing music the ipod will essentially preload a song from it's hard drive into a RAM buffer....I don't know how much RAM is on an ipod but there must be at least 8MB. So each song loads from the hard disk in a matter of seconds and then it plays from RAM....sound right? If this is accurate the Ipod woould not draw as much power from the battery when playing from ram as if it were streaming constantly from the hard disk.

However if you are copying data to the hard drive over and over that might draw more power and thus make the ipod run down much quicker. I don't know if this is accurate but it is a concern. I would think that it is obvious that you won't get the same battery life out of it as you would using it as a portable music player. BUt the difference is what is the question here.

Kaku is the only one I know on eactually using this method. Maybe he can shed some light on the lifespan of his ipod being used this way.

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 11:23 AM

One huge CON for the iPod is that you can't record to the iPod. The Cineporter is a recording device. The iPod is only storage device. So the length of your shot is limited with the iPod. And you are also adding time to the workflow by copying over shots to the iPod every handful of minutes.

If all of that is OK with you, then I still think there will be better options than the iPod, because once you use the iPod for this purpose, it will no longer be an iPod. You can never use it again with iTunes and as a player, etc. It seems that if you are looking for a storage device only, then a self-powered USB or firewire drive seems a much better alternative

Kaku Ito · January 6th, 2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik

My first concern with the Ipod solution is battery life. ....

Kaku is the only one I know on eactually using this method. Maybe he can shed some light on the lifespan of his ipod being used this way.

I fully charged the iPod and took three HVX batteries to shoot some stuff. I ran out of HVX batteries then still had battery left on my iPod. One good point, iPod charges itself while it is connected to G5 for bringing in the clips to FCP. How nice.

But If I get something like CinePorter, I would put my iPod back to a music player for my car. I'm using iPod for now just because I don't have any battery operated small firewre hard disk drive.

Marty Hudzik · January 6th, 2006, 11:38 AM

Kaku,
I guess the more important question is about how many "offloads" of P2 did you do on the IPOD. Since it is a 60GB Ipod the max it could hold would be 15 or so. If it can have 15 offloads without losing it's charge that is all that really matters since when you are not offloading it can just go to sleep and save the battery.

Thanks!

Robert Lane · January 6th, 2006, 11:45 AM

In my business your work - and your shoot - is only as successful as the reliability of the hardware you're using. I wouldn't want to trust the iPod to work under the rigors of a professional shoot and have it die, get a glitch etc.

Another thing to consider is support. Apple does not have pro-level support for any of it's "i" products. Ever try to get tech support for Keynote, iTunes or iDVD? If the tech person on the phone can't help you troubleshoot it and the help isn't on the web, you're screwed.

The Cineporter is a product designed for working professionals; yes it's more costly than an iPod but it will also be much better supported by the manufacturer.

However, my workflow plan for my HVX project will be to shoot to the 2 8gb P2 cards in the camera, then transfer the clips directly to an external Firewire drive (probably an OWC Mercury Elite), reformat the P2 cards and go on. I would have preferred to be able to use the Cineporter but it won't be available in time to use in my production.

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

once you use the iPod for this purpose, it will no longer be an iPod. You can never use it again with iTunes and as a player, etc.

I'm quoting myself and disagreeing with myself i know. But I think I was incorrect in saying that because if the HVX is in host mode it's just transferring files. The reformatting of drives (i.e. lose iPod functionality) would only happen if you were recording to the drive directly. And we know the iPod is not capable of that. Sorry for the misinformation.

Marty Hudzik · January 6th, 2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

I'm quoting myself and disagreeing with myself i know. But I think I was incorrect in saying that because if the HVX is in host mode it's just transferring files. The reformatting of drives (i.e. lose iPod functionality) would only happen if you were recording to the drive directly. And we know the iPod is not capable of that. Sorry for the misinformation.

I don't think that is accurate either Brian.......I thought the very first thing that happens to a portable drive that is to be used as an "offload" device is that the HVX must first format it. I thought that is what Barry said. Obviously you cannot record "live" to it but even for offloading it has to be specially formatted. I think......

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik

I don't think that is accurate either Brian.......I thought the very first thing that happens to a portable drive that is to be used as an "offload" device is that the HVX must first format it. I thought that is what Barry said. Obviously you cannot record "live" to it but even for offloading it has to be specially formatted. I think......

So Kaku, is your iPod and iPod still? Did you delete all of the functionality of the iPod by having to format it? Hopefully you didn't just lose an iPod and gain a 60gig drive without realizing it.

Ram Ganesh · January 6th, 2006, 01:43 PM

yes... ipod will no longer be ipod after mating with HVX...

Ash Greyson · January 6th, 2006, 03:37 PM

Ipods are not made for transferring files, I have killed 3 of them by using them as an external HDD to move files from home to work and back. For the same price as a 60gb video ipod you can get a used Thinkpad or Ibook! You can also get a battery operated external enclosure, etc. Ipod is a bad bad bad bad choice, a novelty yes, but just a workaround...

ash =o)

Barry Green · January 6th, 2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

But I think I was incorrect in saying that because if the HVX is in host mode it's just transferring files. The reformatting of drives (i.e. lose iPod functionality) would only happen if you were recording to the drive directly. And we know the iPod is not capable of that. Sorry for the misinformation.

This is not correct. When the HVX is in host mode, it must format the drive before it can use it. Formatting the drive involves erasing/deleting all partitions. It then allocates a new partition for each card that you transfer over.

So if you want to use the ipod, you have to make a decision: is it a music player? Or is it a P2 offload device? Can't be both.

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 06:01 PM

So I was originally correct. Dang it. Why didn't i just stick to my guns.

So Kaku, do you realize that you don't have an iPod anymore? You mentioned that once you get a Cineporter or something you'd put the iPod back in your car to use as a music player. Apparently, that's not really an option anymore. You have a 60gig harddrive now.

Barry Green · January 6th, 2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Petersen

Apparently, that's not really an option anymore. You have a 60gig harddrive now.

If you've backed it up to a computer, you should be able to restore it completely. So it can go back to being an ipod, but while it's an ipod it cannot be used for offloading HVX footage. And while it's an HVX offloading device, it cannot be used as an ipod.

Edwin Hernandez · January 7th, 2006, 10:07 AM

I don't think the iPod is a cost efficient solution. Aren't there battery powered Hard Drives with larger capacity and lower price?

January 6th, 2006, 11:23 AM	#3
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	One huge CON for the iPod is that you can't record to the iPod. The Cineporter is a recording device. The iPod is only storage device. So the length of your shot is limited with the iPod. And you are also adding time to the workflow by copying over shots to the iPod every handful of minutes. If all of that is OK with you, then I still think there will be better options than the iPod, because once you use the iPod for this purpose, it will no longer be an iPod. You can never use it again with iTunes and as a player, etc. It seems that if you are looking for a storage device only, then a self-powered USB or firewire drive seems a much better alternative __________________ Brian Petersen www.thinktankthemovie.com www.albrightacademy.com

January 6th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#6
Robert Lane Go Go Godzilla Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ USA Posts: 2,788 Images: 15	In my business your work - and your shoot - is only as successful as the reliability of the hardware you're using. I wouldn't want to trust the iPod to work under the rigors of a professional shoot and have it die, get a glitch etc. Another thing to consider is support. Apple does not have pro-level support for any of it's "i" products. Ever try to get tech support for Keynote, iTunes or iDVD? If the tech person on the phone can't help you troubleshoot it and the help isn't on the web, you're screwed. The Cineporter is a product designed for working professionals; yes it's more costly than an iPod but it will also be much better supported by the manufacturer. However, my workflow plan for my HVX project will be to shoot to the 2 8gb P2 cards in the camera, then transfer the clips directly to an external Firewire drive (probably an OWC Mercury Elite), reformat the P2 cards and go on. I would have preferred to be able to use the Cineporter but it won't be available in time to use in my production. __________________ Robert Lane Producer/Creator - Bike Pilots TV

January 6th, 2006, 06:01 PM	#13
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	So I was originally correct. Dang it. Why didn't i just stick to my guns. So Kaku, do you realize that you don't have an iPod anymore? You mentioned that once you get a Cineporter or something you'd put the iPod back in your car to use as a music player. Apparently, that's not really an option anymore. You have a 60gig harddrive now. __________________ Brian Petersen www.thinktankthemovie.com www.albrightacademy.com

January 6th, 2006, 11:09 AM	#2
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	My first concern with the Ipod solution is battery life. Sure a typical ipod can last for 10-12 hours of music. That sounds great. But my logic tells me that when playing music the ipod will essentially preload a song from it's hard drive into a RAM buffer....I don't know how much RAM is on an ipod but there must be at least 8MB. So each song loads from the hard disk in a matter of seconds and then it plays from RAM....sound right? If this is accurate the Ipod woould not draw as much power from the battery when playing from ram as if it were streaming constantly from the hard disk. However if you are copying data to the hard drive over and over that might draw more power and thus make the ipod run down much quicker. I don't know if this is accurate but it is a concern. I would think that it is obvious that you won't get the same battery life out of it as you would using it as a portable music player. BUt the difference is what is the question here. Kaku is the only one I know on eactually using this method. Maybe he can shed some light on the lifespan of his ipod being used this way.

January 6th, 2006, 11:38 AM	#5
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	Kaku, I guess the more important question is about how many "offloads" of P2 did you do on the IPOD. Since it is a 60GB Ipod the max it could hold would be 15 or so. If it can have 15 offloads without losing it's charge that is all that really matters since when you are not offloading it can just go to sleep and save the battery. Thanks!

January 6th, 2006, 01:43 PM	#10
Ram Ganesh Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 175	yes... ipod will no longer be ipod after mating with HVX...

January 6th, 2006, 03:37 PM	#11
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Ipods are not made for transferring files, I have killed 3 of them by using them as an external HDD to move files from home to work and back. For the same price as a 60gb video ipod you can get a used Thinkpad or Ibook! You can also get a battery operated external enclosure, etc. Ipod is a bad bad bad bad choice, a novelty yes, but just a workaround... ash =o)

January 7th, 2006, 10:07 AM	#15
Edwin Hernandez Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Panama City, Panama Posts: 162	I don't think the iPod is a cost efficient solution. Aren't there battery powered Hard Drives with larger capacity and lower price?