Understanding the "F" at DVinfo.net

Steven Galvano · January 17th, 2007, 09:30 AM

Just got an A1.
We are starting a new documentary in the middle east in feb. I am just now considering shooting in 24f. we have been shooting in HDV 60i for years, then de-interlacing/converting to 24p in Magic Bullet. We have been doing this very successfully.
I haven't researched how the 24/30 f function work in the A1. From the little I've read it is not like the Cineframe mode in our FX-1's. (which look horrible).

-We are actually getting progressive output?
-Where does the 10% rez loss number come from? Is that accurate?
-How can I ingest 24f footage into FCP?
-How will it differ/be better than working with Magic Bullet?

thanks!!
Steven Galvano
ColorsStudios.com

Bill Pryor · January 17th, 2007, 09:43 AM

There's been quite a bit of discussion about this. The F is the same as P. The end result is a true progressive 24 fps, no interlace. It's not at all like the Cineframe in the Z1. It's the main reason I got the A1 over the Z1.

FCP works great with the 24f footage. You must have the $49 crossgrade, and that allows you to get the free 5.1.2 download. If you have 5.1.2, you're in business.

I've been involved with Magic Bullet (even though I don't use it myself, a friend does, and I've edited much of his footage), and when you do the deinterlace thing in post, there is a bit of funkiness in the motion. When you're shooting 24 frames per second in HDV, you have a real 24 frames per second, no pulldown blur frames. You mark an in and out point one second apart, count the frames, and there are 24. Looks just like 24fps film motion

Chris Hurd · January 17th, 2007, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Galvano

I haven't researched how the 24/30 f function work in the A1.

Perhaps you should -- this forum is loaded with information about Frame mode, and a simple search would reveal just how frequently your questions have been asked, and how thoroughly they've already been answered. Please explore the numerous existing conversations about Frame mode for in-depth replies, but for now, here's a brief re-cap:

-We are actually getting progressive output? Yes.

-Where does the 10% rez loss number come from? Is that accurate? Yes, it's accurate. The 10% loss of vertical resolution is the price paid by the DSP for the in-camera conversion from interlace to progressive.

-How can I ingest 24f footage into FCP? In 5.1.2, simply use the 1080 HDV 24p capture settings. As far as Final Cut is concerned, 24F is 24P. Frame mode is completely transparent to the latest version of Final Cut Pro (and some other NLE applications). It captures as 24P progressive scan video because that's what it is... 24P progressive scan video.

-How will it differ/be better than working with Magic Bullet? It's a heck of lot faster and cleaner than converting in post.

Hope this helps,

thanks!!
Steven Galvano
ColorsStudios.com[/QUOTE]

Steven Galvano · January 17th, 2007, 09:53 AM

....that's why i love this site. Thanks for the insight.
I will continue to explore the posts info.

Can i use my existing HDV decks to ingest 24f footage...or do I have to use the camera?

Chris Hurd · January 17th, 2007, 09:58 AM

None of the current JVC or Sony HDV decks can read Frame mode. You'll either have to use the camera as a deck, or buy the Canon version of a "deck" which is their consumer HDV camcorder, the HV 10, and use it for playback. It handles Frame mode playback (but not Frame mode recording).

Again, a frequently asked question. Please, please, please search before posting. Chances are that whatever your question is, we've already answered it numerous times before in the past.

The types of posts that we're looking for are, what are you doing with the camera, share some clips of what you're shooting, your tips and suggestions, etc. Thanks in advance,

Bill Busby · January 17th, 2007, 10:55 AM

Why in the bleepity bleep doesn't Canon make decks? They never have & seemingly never will. I've always wondered this. I mean, at the very least, take the A1/G1's tape transport & all the goodies inside, & throw it in a box! :)

Seriously... are they afraid of competing with the "big boys"? I doubt the big boys will come out with a deck that plays Canons 24f... or at least anytime soon.

It cracks me up thinking the HV-10 is the only solution they came up with & laugh every time I reach for mine to capture. If a client was ever to come here during the capture process, I'd just hide it under my bay or somesuch :) Oh well.....

Bill

Bill Pryor · January 17th, 2007, 11:02 AM

That very issue will keep us from going with a couple of XL H1s next year. After getting the XH A1 for personal doc use, I've decided its quality is perfectly good enough to replace our bigger cameras at work when we buy new stuff, probably mid-next year. I had been looking at HDCAM HD, but the Canons are really good enough. I could buy two H1s, two decks (if they existed) and have enough money left over for three of the most-used HMI lights I normall rent--for less money than one XDCAM HD with two decks. Of course, we could shoot 60i and use Sony decks, but one thing we'll do when we make a move to new gear is start shooting 24p. There are some advantages to us for doing that beyond the look.

I've been loading my footage from the A1 using the camera, and it is maddeningly slow and cumbersome. I can live with it for the fun personal stuff, but it'd never fly in client production work.

Steven Galvano · January 17th, 2007, 11:05 AM

It's actually not a bad solution.
I've have always purchased high end sony decks.
For my FX1, a friend recently suggested a $899 Sony HC3 camcorder instead the the $4000 deck solution. All I use the camera for in ingestation. Three months later, I'm very happy with the performance....no glitches at all.....and with the 3k in savings, I bought the Canon A1.

One more question for Chris: been reading about the 10-12% rez loss for shooting 24f. I havent found the rez loss numbers for 30f. Is it the same?
It would stand to reason at 30f with be simpler for the DSP.

thanks
Steven

Bogdan Tyburczy · January 17th, 2007, 11:26 AM

Chris -

Could we include professional deck next to our list regarding Canon A1/G1 firmware upgrade petition? Hard to say why Canon linger. Maybe introduction of deck would not be optimal decision for them? Maybe they are thinking about solid state memory recording for the next generation of their pro video equipment?

Personally, I'm very happy with Canon's F mode encoding. It's not compatible with 60i/50i stream but I like it because it's fully progressive, more effective and elegant solution, that will also be fully compatible with their future true progressive camcorders.

Thanks.

Alex Leith · January 17th, 2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pryor

I've been loading my footage from the A1 using the camera, and it is maddeningly slow and cumbersome. I can live with it for the fun personal stuff, but it'd never fly in client production work.

In what way is it slower than a deck?

Insert tape. Rewind to start. Open HDV capture window and hit the capture buttons. 63 minutes later you have your tape nicely broken up into clips (well, with FCP you do, not sure about other software)...

..and in the meantime you can go and have a cup of tea / surf the web / play the playstation / watch tv / get some other work done / etc.

For me this method is far faster than setting in and out points and capturing the old way (even with a deck). Trimming clips and disregarding bad takes is so much faster that it more than makes up for the additional time of having to capture the whole tape.

Personally I cannot understand why people are so attached to having a deck. I'd never invite a client to the capturing anyway (unless I want to make more money out of them - hee! hee!).

And I'm happy that Canon's "deck" is cheaper and includes a free camera!

Although the FS4 is next on my shopping list, anyway!

Bogdan Tyburczy · January 17th, 2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

Personally I cannot understand why people are so attached to having a deck.

Decks are so convenient to work with and look cool on desk :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

And I'm happy that Canon's "deck" is cheaper and includes a free camera!

I agree. Never owned pro deck and my productions never suffered because of that, but... decks are cool :) If Canon released one for the price similar to HV10, I'd be very tempted.

Alex Leith · January 17th, 2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogdan Tyburczy

Decks are so convenient to work with and look cool on desk :)

And the truth shall set you free! :-D

When I worked for a TV news studio (about 10 years ago now) we were mostly on Beta SP. We did have a couple of stringers supplying us with footage from XL1s. And the deck we used for editing DV footage? It was a JVC camcorder!

Juan Diaz · January 17th, 2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Galvano

It's actually not a bad solution.
One more question for Chris: been reading about the 10-12% rez loss for shooting 24f. I havent found the rez loss numbers for 30f. Is it the same?
It would stand to reason at 30f with be simpler for the DSP.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....0&postcount=39

Juan Diaz · January 17th, 2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

In what way is it slower than a deck?

Well the tape mechanisms on pro decks are typically much faster than the ones on cameras so shuttling back and forth is faster on a deck. But you're right, once you actually start capturing it's all real-time anyway so that narrows the gap.

I know this solution isn't right for everyone but the firestore has been a fantastic solution for me regarding the deck issue. It's still cheaper than a pro deck (though not cheap). I still run tape as a backup, but haven't actually needed to use it. Capture times are way faster than any deck.

I don't know if it looks more or less impressive than a deck in the eyes of a client but I suppose you could refer to it as a Digital Film Mag instead of as a Hard Drive to get them to Ooohh and Aaahh.

Bogdan Tyburczy · January 17th, 2007, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Leith

And the truth shall set you free! :-D

When I worked for a TV news studio (about 10 years ago now) we were mostly on Beta SP. We did have a couple of stringers supplying us with footage from XL1s. And the deck we used for editing DV footage? It was a JVC camcorder!

Working with camcorders, people tend to care about drum hours, but almost nobody cares about DH in decks... Ain't that funny? :) We just like decks because we take their performance for granted. Decks never break, we beat them around, we don't even care to insert tapes gently, but we treat cams so nicely. That's not fair :)

January 17th, 2007, 09:30 AM	#1
Steven Galvano Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 109	Understanding the "F" Just got an A1. We are starting a new documentary in the middle east in feb. I am just now considering shooting in 24f. we have been shooting in HDV 60i for years, then de-interlacing/converting to 24p in Magic Bullet. We have been doing this very successfully. I haven't researched how the 24/30 f function work in the A1. From the little I've read it is not like the Cineframe mode in our FX-1's. (which look horrible). -We are actually getting progressive output? -Where does the 10% rez loss number come from? Is that accurate? -How can I ingest 24f footage into FCP? -How will it differ/be better than working with Magic Bullet? thanks!! Steven Galvano ColorsStudios.com

January 17th, 2007, 09:58 AM	#5
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	None of the current JVC or Sony HDV decks can read Frame mode. You'll either have to use the camera as a deck, or buy the Canon version of a "deck" which is their consumer HDV camcorder, the HV 10, and use it for playback. It handles Frame mode playback (but not Frame mode recording). Again, a frequently asked question. Please, please, please search before posting. Chances are that whatever your question is, we've already answered it numerous times before in the past. The types of posts that we're looking for are, what are you doing with the camera, share some clips of what you're shooting, your tips and suggestions, etc. Thanks in advance, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 17th, 2007, 09:43 AM	#2
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	There's been quite a bit of discussion about this. The F is the same as P. The end result is a true progressive 24 fps, no interlace. It's not at all like the Cineframe in the Z1. It's the main reason I got the A1 over the Z1. FCP works great with the 24f footage. You must have the $49 crossgrade, and that allows you to get the free 5.1.2 download. If you have 5.1.2, you're in business. I've been involved with Magic Bullet (even though I don't use it myself, a friend does, and I've edited much of his footage), and when you do the deinterlace thing in post, there is a bit of funkiness in the motion. When you're shooting 24 frames per second in HDV, you have a real 24 frames per second, no pulldown blur frames. You mark an in and out point one second apart, count the frames, and there are 24. Looks just like 24fps film motion

January 17th, 2007, 09:53 AM	#4
Steven Galvano Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 109	....that's why i love this site. Thanks for the insight. I will continue to explore the posts info. Can i use my existing HDV decks to ingest 24f footage...or do I have to use the camera?

January 17th, 2007, 10:55 AM	#6
Bill Busby Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 959	Why in the bleepity bleep doesn't Canon make decks? They never have & seemingly never will. I've always wondered this. I mean, at the very least, take the A1/G1's tape transport & all the goodies inside, & throw it in a box! :) Seriously... are they afraid of competing with the "big boys"? I doubt the big boys will come out with a deck that plays Canons 24f... or at least anytime soon. It cracks me up thinking the HV-10 is the only solution they came up with & laugh every time I reach for mine to capture. If a client was ever to come here during the capture process, I'd just hide it under my bay or somesuch :) Oh well..... Bill

January 17th, 2007, 11:02 AM	#7
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	That very issue will keep us from going with a couple of XL H1s next year. After getting the XH A1 for personal doc use, I've decided its quality is perfectly good enough to replace our bigger cameras at work when we buy new stuff, probably mid-next year. I had been looking at HDCAM HD, but the Canons are really good enough. I could buy two H1s, two decks (if they existed) and have enough money left over for three of the most-used HMI lights I normall rent--for less money than one XDCAM HD with two decks. Of course, we could shoot 60i and use Sony decks, but one thing we'll do when we make a move to new gear is start shooting 24p. There are some advantages to us for doing that beyond the look. I've been loading my footage from the A1 using the camera, and it is maddeningly slow and cumbersome. I can live with it for the fun personal stuff, but it'd never fly in client production work.

January 17th, 2007, 11:05 AM	#8
Steven Galvano Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 109	It's actually not a bad solution. I've have always purchased high end sony decks. For my FX1, a friend recently suggested a $899 Sony HC3 camcorder instead the the $4000 deck solution. All I use the camera for in ingestation. Three months later, I'm very happy with the performance....no glitches at all.....and with the 3k in savings, I bought the Canon A1. One more question for Chris: been reading about the 10-12% rez loss for shooting 24f. I havent found the rez loss numbers for 30f. Is it the same? It would stand to reason at 30f with be simpler for the DSP. thanks Steven

January 17th, 2007, 11:26 AM	#9
Bogdan Tyburczy Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 161	Chris - Could we include professional deck next to our list regarding Canon A1/G1 firmware upgrade petition? Hard to say why Canon linger. Maybe introduction of deck would not be optimal decision for them? Maybe they are thinking about solid state memory recording for the next generation of their pro video equipment? Personally, I'm very happy with Canon's F mode encoding. It's not compatible with 60i/50i stream but I like it because it's fully progressive, more effective and elegant solution, that will also be fully compatible with their future true progressive camcorders. Thanks.