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Old June 27th, 2011, 10:45 AM   #31
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

I think Stereoscopic Player's de-interlace is going to use the native de-interlace in your video card. In the case of modern NVIDIA cards, it's motion-adaptive and very good. On ATI cards, the default on-card de-interlace is selectable via the Catalyst control panel. Playback looks very good from Stereoscopic player on my 120Hz LCD page flipper w/ NVIDIA de-interlacing.

The big problem with 60i is that 1080 60i or 30P (the natural rate to de-interlace into) are NOT mandatory HDMI 1.4a 3D formats and therefore are not widely supported - so the "out of the camera" experience for some users will have to be anamorphically scaled and not full res. Also, 3D Blu-Ray is limited to 24P and there is no good way to get there from 1080 60i. You can always scale to 720 30P... but that sucks!
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Old June 27th, 2011, 11:07 AM   #32
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

For deinterlacing: would be good, but i read in the text file:

* Deinterlacing support (drop-field deinterlacing). The internal deinter-
lacing is not used if a compatible video decoder is detected. In this
case, deinterlacing is automatically enabled in the decoder and the
internal deinterlacing is disabled.

Drop is bad. You are sure, that you see 60frames, and not 30p?
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Old June 27th, 2011, 12:30 PM   #33
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

We're seeing 60i motion-adaptivly de-interlaced into 30P.

CoreAVC MVC decoder (that Peter Wimmer uses in Stereoscopic Player for MVC decoding) is almost certainly using hardware de-interlacing via DirectShow. It's using DXVA2 or CUDA hardware acceleration for decoding. If the DirectShow decoder can't do the de-interlacing, Peter falls back and discards one field for playback. That is certainly NOT happing on any of our page-flipping PC's here.

Are you seeing juddery playback of the MVC files from Stereoscopic Player on a page-flipping display? That is a tell-tail sign of dropping a field.

We've been trying to de-interlace, scale and modify the time-base of the native 1080 60i footage here. We've tried yadif, the motion-adaptive scaler/de-interlacer in Compressor and the optical-flow-analysis based Nuke/Kronos package. Neither offer ANY visual improvement in de-interlacing this footage in real-time with an NVIDIA card. We've tried:

- 1080 60i to 1080 60P
- 1080 60i to 1080 30P
- 1080 60i to 1080 24P (a crap shoot, I know)
- 1080 60i to 720 60P (had high hopes for this one, but no better image than 720 30P)
- 1080 60i to 720 30P

We were hoping to crack the 1080 60i fields in half (to 1920 X 540 60P), then scale to 720 X 1280 by borrowing spatial information from the original 1080 frame. There are apparently broadcast hardware processors (e.g. Teranex vc100) that can do this effectively. We have failed to replicate the process in software so far. All hopes of getting some production use out of the TD10 are pretty much dashed here. Here's hoping the HXR-NX3D1P ships on schedule.
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Old June 27th, 2011, 12:47 PM   #34
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Great, then it's time to upgrade my 7600GT :P
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Old June 30th, 2011, 11:13 AM   #35
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

OK - have a decent path to 720 60P working. Used Peter Wimmer's MVC-to-AVI. Used AVISynth to crack 1080 60i into 540x1920 60P (split the fields). Then used Compressor's statistical prediction resize filter to go from 540x1920 to 720x1280. Added a pinch of gamma correction ('cause something along the way stepped on the gamma) and the results are passable 720 60P 3D.

I'm test encoding now to see how much difference additional temporal information makes using this conversion as apposed to using a native 720 60P 3D rig.

If anyone wants the simple AVISynth script and/or Compressor settings, let me know.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 02:04 AM   #36
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Ok, i tested with the latest player which claims:
"Added support for interlaced MVC content. "

I use a geforce 210 (dxva and cuda support) and also
an Ati 5450, but i cannot see any hardware deinterlacing.
Graphics drivers are updated.. So what's wrong?
I see the horizontal lines, or dropped resolution when check the
"interlaced video" option in video properties window.

But if you see 30P from 60i source then it's also not the best, because
the best is 60 individual frame from a 60i source, so very smooth
motion.

"have a decent path to 720 60P working."

Great, and this is also a 3D Bluray standard :-)
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Old July 1st, 2011, 07:55 AM   #37
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

I'm a little stumped by the official Sony specs posted at this URL.
Sony : HXR-NX3D1E (HXRNX3D1E) : Technical Specifications : United Kingdom
________________________________________
Recording format
Video Format: 3D: 3D : MVC (1080/60i, 50i, 24p : original format), HD: HD : MPEG4-AVC/H.264 AVCHD format compatible (1080/60p,50p : original format), STD: MPEG-2 PS
Audio Format: 3D/HD: Linear PCM/Dolby Digital 2ch, 16bit, 48kHz, STD: Dolby Digital 2ch, 16bit, 48kHz
Recording frame rate
3D: 3D (28Mbps) 1920 x 1080/(60i,50i,24p)/16:9, HD: PS (28Mbps) 1920 x 1080/(60p,50p)/16:9, HD: FX (24Mbps) 1920 x 1080/(60i,50i,25p,24p)/16:9, HD: FH (17Mbps) 1920 x 1080/(60i,50i,25p,24p)/16:9, HD: HQ (9Mbps) 1440 x 1080/(60i,50i)/16:9, HD: LP (5Mbps) 1440 x 1080/(60i,50i)/16:9, STD: SD (9Mbps) 720 x 480/60i or 720 x 576/50i /16:9, 4:3
________________________________________

It sure looks like the camera records 3D at 24P, but the frame properties of recorded footage clearly indicate it is 29.97. Now I'm also looking at de-interlacing solutions for possible conversion to 23.98 but I'm not holding out much hope that it will look any different than Sony Z1U footage did when it would get converted to 23.98 - lots of strobing and other ugly artifacts.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 10:16 AM   #38
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prech Marton View Post
...but i cannot see any hardware deinterlacing.
Graphics drivers are updated.. So what's wrong?
Not sure. Works great here on Geforce 540M and GTX 580. Can you see a difference when you enable the switch for de-interlacing in Stereoscopic Player? Are you viewing on a 120Hz LCD or over HDMI 1.4 to a 3DTV? If you play in 2D from Windows Media Player, does it de-interlace any differently than when played from Stereoscopic Player in 3D?
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Old July 1st, 2011, 10:19 AM   #39
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz View Post
I'm a little stumped by the official Sony specs posted at this URL.
Sony : HXR-NX3D1E (HXRNX3D1E) : Technical Specifications : United Kingdom

Those specs are for the yet-to-be-released Sony HXR-NX3D1, we're discussing the TD10. They are likely the same basic camera with the exception that the NX3D1 supports 24P in 3D and has XLR audio inputs (and costs 2X as much as the TD10).
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Old July 2nd, 2011, 08:32 AM   #40
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M. Cole View Post
Those specs are for the yet-to-be-released Sony HXR-NX3D1, we're discussing the TD10. They are likely the same basic camera with the exception that the NX3D1 supports 24P in 3D and has XLR audio inputs (and costs 2X as much as the TD10).
Good point, hadn't made that distinction.

So, what would the best deinterlacing/24P conversion routines to run on TD10 footage to make it the most compatible with other 1080/24P footage like from a Panasonic 3DA1?

Compressor? other workflows? I've been reading your thread posts about converting to 720 but I'm not sure that is the way to go with a 1080 3D project. It sucks to find all this out after the fact, but I'll be looking more closely at the NX3D1 now.
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Old July 2nd, 2011, 12:16 PM   #41
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Schultz View Post
So, what would the best deinterlacing/24P conversion routines.
There is no good path from the TD10s native 1080 60i to 1080 24P.... it's just not really practical. There are optical flow re-timers (Nuke Kronos) that may get you somewhere, depending on the footage composition - but - the results are generally not good.

Going to 720 60P, which is another mandatory HDMI 1.4a 3DTV standard, works pretty well. You can use AVISynth to de-interlace to 1080 60P, then scale to 720. Results are fairly good. For fast action 720 60P IS the way to go in 3D. You need as much temporal resolution as possible to capture action, especially when the motion is parallel to the sensor plane. In 3D, blur = BAD.

It is a real bummer that Sony didn't implement 1080 24P in this camera. Also a bummer than GoPro's are 1080 30P (but, will do 25P in PAL mode at least).
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Old November 19th, 2011, 08:25 PM   #42
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Anyone find a all mac solution for this yet?
Been looking everywhere...
Thanks
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Old November 21st, 2011, 02:07 PM   #43
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Taj, I don't think Sony has made Mac processing of these files a priority - yet. You need to use the Sony Content Management Utility (Win only) to process the M2TS files into discreet L / R files and then you can edit/process them on a Mac in FCP, Avid, AE, etc. I know that the next update of Neo 3D from Cineform will process and mux them directly, but that's an expensive software package at $1K USD. Right now only CMU and Sony Vegas 10D,E or 11 will edit them natively - Windows only.

The main problem with the CMU from Sony is that you need to plug in the camera while you install it, then it runs ok without the camera plugged in after that. Don't know why they did this.

So the best answer for exclusive Mac users is probably to use Boot Camp, install any version of Windows from XP to Win 7 (I would skip Vista unless it's free), then install CMU with a camera (owned or borrowed), then make the files accessible from the Mac boot side to edit them.
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Old December 2nd, 2011, 02:58 PM   #44
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Hi! I'm new to 3D, the TD10, and this forum.

I cut on FCP, so I started looking for a solution that could allow me to edit there. I tried Wimmer's MVC to AVI Converter, but there was a big problem! The (beautifully compressed) .m2ts codec used in the TD10 mushroomed in data size, when converted to AVI. It was literally 100X more data; one 100MB file expanding into 2X5GB AVIs. So 10GB of footage would expand to 1TB! And that's all before transcoding the second time, from AVI to MOV.

That's a huge workflow bottleneck, in transcoding time, sheer data space, and edit throughput. How much easier it would be, just to cut natively in the .m2ts codec!

My first work-around was to pull selects from the footage, with a combination of Wimmer's Stereoscopic Viewer, and Sony's PMB (file management software that comes with the camera), which can trim the .m2ts files without changing their format. In theory, then, the selects would expand to smaller AVIs, although it would still take up a lot of space. Also, archiving footage gets a lot easier.

But once I started working in Vegas 11, which can edit the .m2ts files directly, I decided that was the only way to go. As an FCP user, it's a bit frustrating to learn Vegas' very different logic, but ultimately it's worth it, to be able to keep my file sizes small, and my workflow lean.

I have just shot an interview on the TD10, with the GoPro 3D rig as my b-camera. Since Vegas can cut the Cineform codec, I'm hoping I can sync up the two cameras there, without having to transcode anything. I'm not yet sure how best to finish the project (it will include some stereoscopic CGI), but I am definitely sold on Vegas (and hence, PC) as my near-term cutting solution. A learning curve in the short term seems like it will pay off well, over time, at least until FCP or Avid starts cutting .m2ts natively.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #45
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Re: Sony TD10 3D camera editing suggestions

Matt, my experience with TD10/NX3D1 files mirrors yours, however, I found Sony Vegas to be a pale comparison to FCP / Cineform Neo3D workflow so I have only been using it to separate the L/R images and converting/muxing them with Cineform MOV to use in FCP. I can see why some would opt to stay in Vegas and edit 3D natively, however I had serious playback issues with M2TS files in Vegas and not in FCP, so I didn't bother learning a new timeline routine. Also the 3D adjustments palate was rudimentary at best with very few options for fine tuning or ghost busting etc.

Vegas does a great job of creating full resolution L/R images from the MVC files and that is good enough for me.

Another note, I stated in an earlier post on this thread that the Sony CMU & PMB programs would work without the camera being directly hooked up to the computer, but this appears to not be the case. I have found though, that if your MVC files are still on an SD card in the camera that it is a much easier process to render full L/R frames out from those programs directly from the camera as they can be queued in a batch for processing saving mucho time. Unfortunately this isn't always the case as data gets transferred and then SD cards get re-used, so I'm working out the possibility of re-recording the MVC / M2TS files back to SD cards to insert in the camera for processing. This is ass-backwards of course but for some reason Sony has not made it possible to utilize the separation of clips from existing files on a hard drive - go figure. The fact that the Sony MVC files Right image is not a full resolution but rather a Delta file embodying only the differences between it and the full resolution Left image makes using the Sony software all the more important for image fidelity.

Cineform tech support tells me that the next update of Neo 3D will include native MVC processing for files from JVC, Panasonic and Sony.
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