in cam audio with 5Dm2, FP33 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 25th, 2010, 02:58 AM   #1
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
in cam audio with 5Dm2, FP33

I'm preparing to shoot a short film, and I know the conventional wisdom is to use an external recorder for audio when shooting with one of the video DSLRs, but this is a low/no budget production, and neither myself nor the director has access to such a device, we won't be purchasing one any time soon.

The options are in camera audio on the 5D, or using my XL2 as an audio recorder (my original plan).

reading on here, I see most people say recording dialogue is okay with the 5D, despite it's high pass filter.

I've been doing some testing, and am not pleased with the results. Before I give up and go to the XL2, I want to make sure I'm doing this right.

So 5D mic input is mic level, right?

So I'm running an AKG blueline hypercardioid into an FP33, coming out mic level via an XLR to 1/8" adapter cable to the 5D. I run tone from the FP33, setting master on the FP33 so the tone reads 0 on its meter. I then set the camera's meter exactly halfway (I'm guessing here, but if the highest notch on the meter is 0, and the lowest -40, exactly between them should be -20, right?). This seems like it should be the proper gain structure ( to me, anyway. . .unless something I did above is wrong), but when I did a test recording on the camera, with peaks about -10, the resulting recording sounds pretty hissy. . .FCPs meter tells me the hiss level is about -36. That is way loud.

So, did I set something up here wrong, or is this just how it is on the 5D?
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 10:01 AM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,267
Josh,
I am not sure what your particular problem is in getting the recording on the 5D to sound decent but you should try recording the signal a little hotter than midway on the inputs and see if that helps your gain structure on the camera and then run the mixer levels a little lower to see if that helps as well.
I did a shoot a few months ago using a 5D with a mixer on mic level and back up recording to a zoom and the editor said there was very little difference in the quality (which he was happy with) of the camera tracks and the recorder tracks with the recorder winning by being a bit warmer on the low end.
Daniel Epstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 10:14 AM   #3
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
I ran TONE at about halfway on the camera's meters (what I assumed to be -20, the way you would do it on a proper camcorder), but when actually recording peaks were about -12 to -10.
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 11:22 AM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass View Post
I ran TONE at about halfway on the camera's meters (what I assumed to be -20, the way you would do it on a proper camcorder), but when actually recording peaks were about -12 to -10.
That's about what you'd expect. Due to the nature of the mathematics of sine waves, a given level tone will read the same whether the meter is peak reading or averaging. Real-world sound such as speech, OTOH, reading a given level on an averaging meter would read 8 to 10 dB higher on a peak-reading meter. So sending tone reading 0VU on the mixer to the camera, adjusting the camera input level so the tone reads -20 dBFS on the camera meter means that speech reading 0VU on the mixer's averaging meters will read about -12 dBFS on the camera's. You could set the camera input higher but remember you have to avoid peaks ever hitting 0 on the camera meter at any cost.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 11:31 AM   #5
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ireland.
Posts: 15
Hi Josh,
you may find some useful information at this link.Good luck.
Neil

Audio Performance of Canon 5D Mark II Camera|Sound Notes|Sound Devices, LLC
Neil Hurley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #6
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ireland.
Posts: 15
Ha, sorry!! this one :Audio Performance of Canon 5D Mark II Camera|Sound Notes|Sound Devices, LLC
Neil Hurley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 02:23 PM   #7
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
Okay, looks like that link advises simply running camera's audio at its absolute lowest setting, one click away from totally off.

They then say set mixer's limiters to just below 0 dBFS.

Don't really have this option on an FP33 (I think the factory limiter settings are close to 1 or 3 db below its max --- +20 by default)

So then you don't line up tone at all? Just set mixer master to 0 and adjust individual mixer channel pots 'til it reads at -12/10 for peaks on cam meters?
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 03:49 PM   #8
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ireland.
Posts: 15
"So then you don't line up tone at all? Just set mixer master to 0 and adjust individual mixer channel pots 'til it reads at -12/10 for peaks on cam meters?"

Yes,that seems to be what they are saying. I don't own an SD mixer and I have not tryed to record direct to the 5D so I can"t say for sure if it will work.Id say its worth doing some tests using the above method and your own mixer.As I understand it the idea is to use more of the the mixer gain and less of the camera gain.

Good luck,Neil
__________________
Neil Hurley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 04:17 PM   #9
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
I will try it. Still wondering if tape outs (-10) are too powerful for 5D, if it HAS to be mic level.
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 11:11 PM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1,158
before you say you can't afford even a used zoom h4n.... then you probably can't afford to feed the crew or talent, pay for gas, props, locations, a drive to hold the media, another drive to back it up. given all that it takes to do something like this, doing audio poorly will mean just one thing - either it will kill the project because no one will be able to deal with ADR, it will die because its audio is unusuable, or there will be so much more extra work after the fact people will just quit.

put another way, for every $1 you save doing things the wrong way in production, expect it will cost $5-$10X each dollar saved to fix it in post, if it can be fixed. finding a couple hundred for a modest recorder needs to be on your list, and really there isn't any way around it.
__________________
Steve Oakley DP Audio Mixer Editor Colorist
http://stevenoakley.com
Steve Oakley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2010, 11:41 PM   #11
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
I appreciate that, but be that as it may, it's still not gonna happen.
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2010, 09:11 AM   #12
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass View Post
...I run tone from the FP33, setting master on the FP33 so the tone reads 0 on its meter. I then set the camera's meter exactly halfway (I'm guessing here, but if the highest notch on the meter is 0, and the lowest -40, exactly between them should be -20, right?). This seems like it should be the proper gain structure ( to me, anyway. . .unless something I did above is wrong), but when I did a test recording on the camera, with peaks about -10, the resulting recording sounds pretty hissy. . .FCPs meter tells me the hiss level is about -36. That is way loud.

So, did I set something up here wrong, or is this just how it is on the 5D?
Remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic, not linear. The -20dBFS point is not halfway between the -40 dBFS and 0 points, it's closer to about 1/3 the way down from zero.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2010, 11:31 AM   #13
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
Ah! I know in practice it's not linear, but some meters don't reflect that. Good to know. If that SD article is right, though, it sadly doesn't matter.
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2010, 11:52 AM   #14
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass View Post
I appreciate that, but be that as it may, it's still not gonna happen.
I don't get it. If there budget isn't there to shoot it right, why not defer production a little bit and build the budget to the level necessary to do the job right rather than proceeding to waste the time and what budget you do have on a film that'll sound so bad no one will want to watch it? Doesn't seem like a good use of time and resources to me.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2010, 12:08 PM   #15
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Elk Grove CA
Posts: 6,838
Frankly, not be able to monitor the actual recording as it is going to camera, is a problem for you. With Magic Lantern, there is a resolution to that, but at this point, it does not work with the latest version of the camera's firmware. If you have firmware 2.04 still in camera, it will.

Thus, it might be just as easy to record to the XL2, via a method you are familiar with, then line up the sound in post. To do that, set the camera sound on Auto Gain and record through the camera mic for a tract that can be used to match the sound.

Plural Eyes has a 30 day trial that you can use to line match you XL2 sound with your footage in common NLE's.

Depending on your NLE, look at Dual Eyes, from the same manufacturer, as it is stand alone, and can batch process and actually end up with a file that has the separately recorded should attached to it.
__________________
Chris J. Barcellos
Chris Barcellos is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:37 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network