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Old January 24th, 2006, 02:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Werger
Well, for a more "natural" recording, I'd go with omnis at about 2-3 meters distance. If you're worrid about an unstable stereo image, just add a third center mic and mix it evenly into the other two tracks. Panning one mic won't give you some essential time-difference cues that the pair will give you.

Also, re: Steve: mix artifacts aren't really likely to be an issue in a situation like this; they tend to be a problem when recording something closer to a point source. When recording large sources (like an orchestra or a herd of cows walking by), the mics aren't really competing for the same signal in the same way.

And, hey, I'm not knocking MS, I'm touting it! For orchestras, though... I vote Decca Tree...

I should say for the record, though, I've never recorded cows. I'm just guessing.
Phasing artifacts depend on a lot of factors, true. If you go with the 3:1 rule, where mic spacing is at least 3 times the mic/source distance, you can minimize them.

Schoeps has a white paper on their website about using multiple MS arrays and arrays of Figure-8's for surround recording. What a rush that could be, have the herd driven straight toward the camera to split at the last minute and pass to either side as the thundering sounds sweep from front to back in the surround system and the LFE churns out the subsonics!

Schoeps also has a handy one page summary of several common placements for free download from their site showing orientation and dimensions for each type and a nice summary of the pros and cons.
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Old January 24th, 2006, 07:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
Phasing artifacts depend on a lot of factors, true. If you go with the 3:1 rule, where mic spacing is at least 3 times the mic/source distance, you can minimize them.
Very true... but again, this assumes a point source. For a large complex source like a grand piano or herd of cows, 3:1 is rarely the way to go...

Quote:
Schoeps has a white paper on their website about using multiple MS arrays and arrays of Figure-8's for surround recording. What a rush that could be, have the herd driven straight toward the camera to split at the last minute and pass to either side as the thundering sounds sweep from front to back in the surround system and the LFE churns out the subsonics!
That would indeed be slick! I've done a lot of "straight surround" recordings (using 1 mic/channel in a careful array) and it can be pretty impressive...

Are we gonna get to see/hear the results? I'm looking forward to it...
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Old January 25th, 2006, 04:48 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Barry Werger
Very true... but again, this assumes a point source. For a large complex source like a grand piano or herd of cows, 3:1 is rarely the way to go...
...
Not quite - For example when using spaced mics on a choir spread out from one side of the stage to another, one should insure that the spacing between the mics is at least three times the distance the line of mics is from the choir and I don't think or a choir or a symphony orchestra as being a point source, although each instrument would be, of course.
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Last edited by Steve House; January 25th, 2006 at 07:00 AM.
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Old January 25th, 2006, 05:21 AM   #19
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I tend to use a stereo mic on occasions to record ambience that can be later mixed with MONO dialog or other sounds. A stereo mic gives you spatial awareness, but you wouldn't want it overiding the important mono info you have recorded, just as wild track or ambience.

Having said that, it can be easier to build ambience tracks in post that reflects more what you will be seeing.

Take the situation where say an actor walks & talks from frame right to frame left. It's easier to follow the actor with a mono mic on a boom than try and position two mics to get the stereo field. Also you would no doubt pick up more stray sounds than you would want if you used a stereo arrangement.

Stereo is also good for picking up doppler shift type sounds (car approaching and leaving).

Experiment with differnent situations, but for the main part, a mono mic will be your workhorse.
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Old January 25th, 2006, 11:49 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Steve House
Not quite - For example when using spaced mics on a choir spread out from one side of the stage to another, one should insure that the spacing between the mics is at least three times the distance the line of mics is from the choir and I don't think or a choir or a symphony orchestra as being a point source, although each instrument would be, of course.
Hmmm... do you really find this to be the case? In my experience, it leads to unnatural focus on the voices closest to the mics. Remember, what matters is not distance from any one instrument, it's distance from ALL of them... and in a choir, a mic may be 5' from one singer and 50' from another. Ditto for an orchestra... anything closer to an orchestra than 12-15' is more of a spot mic, and will never capture a full blended sound... and you sure don't want the mics 40' apart!
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Old January 25th, 2006, 12:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Barry Werger
Hmmm... do you really find this to be the case? In my experience, it leads to unnatural focus on the voices closest to the mics. Remember, what matters is not distance from any one instrument, it's distance from ALL of them... and in a choir, a mic may be 5' from one singer and 50' from another. Ditto for an orchestra... anything closer to an orchestra than 12-15' is more of a spot mic, and will never capture a full blended sound... and you sure don't want the mics 40' apart!
I agree - was thinking there about specifically using a spaced pair and the idea of a "point source" versus a widely spread source extending across the soundstage. It's been a while since I've done it myself but the results I've liked the best for orchestral and choral recording were done with a coincident or near-coincident pair located back a ways from the front of the house.
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Old January 27th, 2006, 03:32 PM   #22
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[/QUOTE]what you want to do is get an MS mic that outputs the M and S signals seperately, rather than a decoded Left-Right signal.

Now, MS (or any other easily portable mic setup) won't give you the spaciousness of a widely spaced pair, but will be very good for what you're doing, and give you a lot of flexibility in post. Recording separate M and S signals, you never have to decide between mono and stereo... you'll always have both, in infinite variety to match your image.[/QUOTE]

Barry ofcourse I will do reading about this issue, but what is decoded left end right signal. about the MS mics there is two output so are they seperate M snd S signal ? will I plug these inputs to the camera to each xlr input ?

thanks
alkim.
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Old January 27th, 2006, 03:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Werger
what you want to do is get an MS mic that outputs the M and S signals seperately, rather than a decoded Left-Right signal. With the separate signals, you have the ability to vary the width of your stereo signal in post, in order to match your shot exactly to your image...

Recording separate M and S signals, you never have to decide between mono and stereo... you'll always have both, in infinite variety to match your image.
quotation should be like this barry, I made mistake, but my questions are the same.
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Old January 27th, 2006, 03:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
Were it my project, I'd forget trying to field record this, and do it in post. Until recently I owned a small herd of cattle, and I know the sound you're looking to record, and it's not easy to capture and have correct. It also wouldn't translate well as field audio. But as others mentioned, I surely wouldn't want to do this around cattle to get the right sound if I was using my better mics.
yes, this is another option, but with underground recording, I did not put the mics without shelter or anything else, I supported each mic with small plastic box and also I put the cables coming undergroun mic into long hard-plastic pipe in order not to be damaged by the cows..

but doing this record at farm with relatively small groups of cows might be reasonable. I think this option gives more control and try to get the desired sound..

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Old January 27th, 2006, 03:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Barry Werger
Are we gonna get to see/hear the results? I'm looking forward to it...
yes but after april I think. I will post this herd sounds as well as wolves and other recordings with "how to" explanations..

thanks,
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Old January 27th, 2006, 03:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Declan Smith
Experiment with differnent situations, but for the main part, a mono mic will be your workhorse.
You are right declan. teh best way is experiment in field, but this is my first time to jump into balanced audio with limited purchase budget.so I ll try to cover every situation at least one or two mic with appropriate techniques..

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Old January 27th, 2006, 04:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Barry Werger
Well, for a more "natural" recording, I'd go with omnis at about 2-3 meters distance. If you're worrid about an unstable stereo image, just add a third center mic and mix it evenly into the other two tracks. .
barry what you mean by adding center mic. is it during recording and how ?

thanks.
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Old January 27th, 2006, 04:36 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Werger
There's a lot of good advice in the previous posts, but I want to add one or two things...

Recording with two mics is not "recording in stereo"... and stereo is not just "two mono tracks". Stereo micing techniques involve placing mics in a very specific configuration relative to each other, in order to record certain sound cues that the human brain interprets as spatial information. So it's much more about the RELATION between the two mics or two tracks than about the number. This can be done with two separate mics or two mic elements inside one housing (a "stereo mic").
What is stereo then if it is not two independent tracks. What is M-S?

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Old January 27th, 2006, 05:50 PM   #29
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Hi guys!

MS uses the output of two microphones, but they are not yet "stereo"... until they are mixed together through an "MS Matrix" they sound bad together, and don't yield spatial information.

The M mic ("Mid") is generally a directional mic (usually cardioid or hyper) that records the same thing that a mono mic would. If you don't mix in the S mic, you have a good and usable mono signal.

The S mic ("Side") is a bidirectional mic, that captures sound from both the left and the right, and captures as little as possible of what is straight ahead. Listened to by itself, it's pretty much pure echo.

The magic happens when you "matrix" the two together. The M mic plus the S mic signal gives you the left-channel of a stereo signal. The M mic minus the S mic gives you the right channel. And varying the ratio between M and S gives you varying widths of the stereo field... that is, more S is wider, and more distant-sounding, while more M means narrower, closer. At the extremes, of course, are pure M (mono) and pure S (echo)..

Now, many "stereo mics" are MS internally, but output decoded left and right signals (since many people can't or prefer not to deal with MS decoding themselves). Thus they have a fixed stereo field widths. Some "zoom mics" on cameras might be varying the MS ratio relative to the zoom setting of the lens, but still outputting L and R. However, some mics(or two-mic combinations) give you the original M and S signals. Then, the burden is on you to properly decode them, but you also get the benefit of being able to adjust the field width to your taste later.

Let me know if this makes sense,
Barry
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Old January 27th, 2006, 05:57 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Alkim Un
barry what you mean by adding center mic. is it during recording and how ?

thanks.
It can be during recording (using a mixer) or later (if you can record three channels).

Basically, pan the left mic full left, the right mic full right, and the center mic to the center. Level for the center mic should be a bit lower than the L and R mics... you'll have to lidten and see what sounds good....

But again, for the wide complex source you're talking about, two mics will probably be fine.
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