Microcrystalline Wax Techniques?

Keith Kline · June 23rd, 2005, 06:42 PM

Hey guys. I've been working on some other gear and still trying to get my garage/workshop clean out. I'm planning on ordering a few things from surplusshed.com I was thinking about trying to add a condensor lens or two to use with a micro wax gg. Does anyone have any clue what I should be looking for. Would I want a DCX lens or DCV or ?? I have no clue about that stuff. If anyone might know what focal length and what type of lens would work that would help a lot.

Oscar Spierenburg · June 23rd, 2005, 07:06 PM

Hey Keith,
I use two thin condensers which are flat on one side so you can put them right on the GG. Frank told me to do something like that, but you can also see the Movie Tube patent page showing the exact same setup (with wax too)
The thing is, the condensers captures the whole image (not only spread the light) only without the DOF. But this enables you to make the wax layer very very thin, so you get a sharp bright image.
Did you notice my step by step wax page? http://members.chello.nl/a.schultzev...g/wax/wax2.htm

Keith Kline · June 23rd, 2005, 08:00 PM

Okay i see what you mean do you know what those type of condensors are called? I know like DCV and DCX lenses are curved on both sides. Not sure what the type are that are flat on one face.

I've been following your updates on the wax. Glad to see you found some micro wax. I'm gonna give your steps a try this weekend. I got some glass left over from before, plus I have about 5-10 sets of circular glass lenses I cut a few weeks back and Might give those a try. I'm trying to figure out a way to adapt your technique to use with the circular glass.

Andy Gordon · June 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM

Flat on one side is called plano convex or PCX. I've tried a couple from Optosigma. I found if I put an 80mm focal length PCX between the lens and GG I got blurring of the image towards the edges. At the moment I've got GG PCX PCX camcorder like |)( It still has a little barrel distortion and chromatic aberration so I'm going to try 120mm focal length next (50mm diameter).

What diameter are your condensers Oscar? How thick are they? The 80mm focal length I have is about 13mm thick, longer focal length = thinner and less distortion, but possibly less hotspot correction.

Matthew Wauhkonen · June 23rd, 2005, 11:34 PM

What do you use for the second piece of glass when using a filter? Do you take that glass from another filter?

Oscar Spierenburg · June 24th, 2005, 04:58 AM

The lenses I use are not 'real' condensers I think, but maybe that's why they work so well. I took one from a super8 camera and the other one from a broken telephoto lens. They are both about 40mm in diameter and not more than 5mm thick.
Matthew, I used the glass of a smaller filter.

Matthew Wauhkonen · June 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM

Interesting discovery....

...a thin layer of vaseline makes a sharp focusing screen with no appreciable light loss. But wow...the hot spot sucks and so does the static image.

Leo Mandy · June 24th, 2005, 04:15 PM

Any pictures Matthew of what the vaseline looks like?

Oscar Spierenburg · June 24th, 2005, 05:23 PM

OK, but I would not use something that is too soft already. Also I wouldn't try to solve the light-loss issue with a different wax type, because the micro-wax at thinnest layer (in relation to the hotspot) gives just 1 stop light-loss.

One important thing I found out this week. I couldn't do anything because it's so terribly hot here this week (The Netherlands) that it's officially a heatwave.
Doing nothing didn't give me no results, in stead it proved that the wax (all of the test glasses too) holds perfectly in hot summer conditions. No melting, other deformations or whatever.

Leo Mandy · June 24th, 2005, 06:00 PM

That's good news - I know that I wondered if it would melt under the hot sun - no melting at all? No running or dripping?

Oscar Spierenburg · June 25th, 2005, 05:10 AM

No, the wax doesn't even get softer, so there is no issue on that part.

Jim Lafferty · June 26th, 2005, 12:02 PM

It will get softer and melt if you leave it exposed to extreme conditions at length. The melting point of S&P's wax is 96 degrees -- under most conditions it will be OK, but put it inside a black box or metal tube, then sit that in your trunk on an outting on a hot day and you'll get into trouble.

Frank Ladner · July 11th, 2005, 07:53 AM

My microwax framegrabs and test footage are now located here:

http://70.147.193.182/mwtest

Download times on the larger files may be a bit slower, as we have switched from a T1 to DSL and the upstream is reduced.

Jim Lafferty · July 11th, 2005, 10:37 PM

Quoting myself from another thread:

Quote:

I started working on a new microwax glass using the Oscar Spier method -- I'm leaving a 49mm filter untouched, placing a 43mm filter removed from its retainer ring ontop (with single layer tape spacers), and dunking the entire solution in melted wax. I'll have it finished tomorrow and let you know if/how it works.

Well, on the positive side, there are no bubbles or dust on this thing. The downside is the appearance of small anamolies, which plague this project for me :(

I'm thinking perhaps I need to place some weight ontop of the glass while it solidifies in order to even them out, but until then my results aren't worthwhile.

- jim

John Jay · July 12th, 2005, 08:09 AM

just a thought, may have been mentioned, but have you tried just letting the wax vapour condense on a glass plate?

hold a glass filter about 2inch above a tin of hot wax and let the condensed wax form a few molecules thick?

- move it about before its sets for even coverage.

June 23rd, 2005, 06:42 PM	#346
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Condenser Hey guys. I've been working on some other gear and still trying to get my garage/workshop clean out. I'm planning on ordering a few things from surplusshed.com I was thinking about trying to add a condensor lens or two to use with a micro wax gg. Does anyone have any clue what I should be looking for. Would I want a DCX lens or DCV or ?? I have no clue about that stuff. If anyone might know what focal length and what type of lens would work that would help a lot.

June 26th, 2005, 12:02 PM	#357
Jim Lafferty Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 636	It will get softer and melt if you leave it exposed to extreme conditions at length. The melting point of S&P's wax is 96 degrees -- under most conditions it will be OK, but put it inside a black box or metal tube, then sit that in your trunk on an outting on a hot day and you'll get into trouble. __________________ Realism, anyway, is never exactly the same as reality, and in the cinema it is of necessity faked. -- J-L G

July 12th, 2005, 08:09 AM	#360
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	just a thought, may have been mentioned, but have you tried just letting the wax vapour condense on a glass plate? hold a glass filter about 2inch above a tin of hot wax and let the condensed wax form a few molecules thick? - move it about before its sets for even coverage. __________________ John Jay Beware *PLUGGER-BYTES*

June 23rd, 2005, 07:06 PM	#347
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Hey Keith, I use two thin condensers which are flat on one side so you can put them right on the GG. Frank told me to do something like that, but you can also see the Movie Tube patent page showing the exact same setup (with wax too) The thing is, the condensers captures the whole image (not only spread the light) only without the DOF. But this enables you to make the wax layer very very thin, so you get a sharp bright image. Did you notice my step by step wax page? http://members.chello.nl/a.schultzev...g/wax/wax2.htm

June 23rd, 2005, 08:00 PM	#348
Keith Kline Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 153	Okay i see what you mean do you know what those type of condensors are called? I know like DCV and DCX lenses are curved on both sides. Not sure what the type are that are flat on one face. I've been following your updates on the wax. Glad to see you found some micro wax. I'm gonna give your steps a try this weekend. I got some glass left over from before, plus I have about 5-10 sets of circular glass lenses I cut a few weeks back and Might give those a try. I'm trying to figure out a way to adapt your technique to use with the circular glass.

June 23rd, 2005, 10:04 PM	#349
Andy Gordon Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Perth WA Posts: 103	Flat on one side is called plano convex or PCX. I've tried a couple from Optosigma. I found if I put an 80mm focal length PCX between the lens and GG I got blurring of the image towards the edges. At the moment I've got GG PCX PCX camcorder like \|)( It still has a little barrel distortion and chromatic aberration so I'm going to try 120mm focal length next (50mm diameter). What diameter are your condensers Oscar? How thick are they? The 80mm focal length I have is about 13mm thick, longer focal length = thinner and less distortion, but possibly less hotspot correction.

June 23rd, 2005, 11:34 PM	#350
Matthew Wauhkonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 285	What do you use for the second piece of glass when using a filter? Do you take that glass from another filter?

June 24th, 2005, 04:58 AM	#351
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	The lenses I use are not 'real' condensers I think, but maybe that's why they work so well. I took one from a super8 camera and the other one from a broken telephoto lens. They are both about 40mm in diameter and not more than 5mm thick. Matthew, I used the glass of a smaller filter.

June 24th, 2005, 10:18 AM	#352
Matthew Wauhkonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 285	Interesting discovery.... ...a thin layer of vaseline makes a sharp focusing screen with no appreciable light loss. But wow...the hot spot sucks and so does the static image.

June 24th, 2005, 04:15 PM	#353
Leo Mandy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 749	Any pictures Matthew of what the vaseline looks like?

June 24th, 2005, 05:23 PM	#354
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	OK, but I would not use something that is too soft already. Also I wouldn't try to solve the light-loss issue with a different wax type, because the micro-wax at thinnest layer (in relation to the hotspot) gives just 1 stop light-loss. One important thing I found out this week. I couldn't do anything because it's so terribly hot here this week (The Netherlands) that it's officially a heatwave. Doing nothing didn't give me no results, in stead it proved that the wax (all of the test glasses too) holds perfectly in hot summer conditions. No melting, other deformations or whatever.

June 24th, 2005, 06:00 PM	#355
Leo Mandy Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 749	That's good news - I know that I wondered if it would melt under the hot sun - no melting at all? No running or dripping?

June 25th, 2005, 05:10 AM	#356
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	No, the wax doesn't even get softer, so there is no issue on that part.

July 11th, 2005, 07:53 AM	#358
Frank Ladner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Poplarville, MS Posts: 453	My microwax framegrabs and test footage are now located here: http://70.147.193.182/mwtest Download times on the larger files may be a bit slower, as we have switched from a T1 to DSL and the upstream is reduced.