I'm starting to experiment with indoor orchestra recording and outdoor marching band recording. I discovered my pair of interview mic were easy over whelmed with sound levels of both types of performance. I have upgraded to a match set of Rode NT5.

For the indoor recording is in a theater I can place mic where I need to but I don't want to place the mic stands on the stage because I video the performance also and there in the shot. Would it be okay to mount the mics in the balcony, where I shoot from? it's maybe 40' to 50' feet from the Orchestra. This is the best location I can think of that I can still keep the mic's about 6' to 10' apart, for decent stereo separation.

For outdoor I can place the mic stand much closer, at field level, but what should the mic spacing be if the band is moving all over the field?

Any suggestions?

Thanks KPO

In short - no, it's too far, and the results will feature too much of the auditorium sound - especially if the audience clap or worse, cheer!. If you have the camera in the the balcony, then if you've already shot some stuff there you'll know what the sound is like. If you want stereo, then ideally the best balance will be above the conductors head, because that's where he or she balances the sections. You will get a recording - it will just be coloured. The venue will control if the colouration is pleasant or nasty. You may be able to mount something from a lighting bar? It will be a bit more upstage than ideal, but could work better.

Mic technique is tricky. Co-incident mic techniques are my preference, usually X/Y, although sometimes I'll go M/S. Spaced techniques like A/B sound much bigger and stereo separation is huge - but often suffers from a lack of sensitivity in the middle - so anyone upstage centre will be weak - so maybe a third mic you can experiment with in the studio.

Recording audio with a natural acoustic is VERY hard to get right. If you mix in your balcony mics, distance creates time alignment issues too - and a video editor's frame shift is not enough, meaning a proper audio editor will be needed.

This good feedback, thanks (pardon the pun). I can place the mic's on stage, it's not a big issue for video. I can cut in between the mic stands. Everything I researched so far describes the same ideal set up you mentioned. But the mic spacing seems to be an experiment, I only have equipment for A-B setup and the spacing is recommended around 12". I guess I only need one stand for this.

What about mic angle in a A-B setup? I'm guessing a 90 degree setup where one mic points over the top of the other. I read this is base on the arrangement of the musicians.

Thanks KPO.

I'm starting to experiment with indoor orchestra recording and outdoor marching band recording. I discovered my pair of interview mic were easy over whelmed with sound levels of both types of performance. I have upgraded to a match set of Rode NT5.

These are cardioids, yes?

For the indoor recording is in a theater I can place mic where I need to but I don't want to place the mic stands on the stage because I video the performance also and there in the shot. Would it be okay to mount the mics in the balcony, where I shoot from? it's maybe 40' to 50' feet from the Orchestra. This is the best location I can think of that I can still keep the mic's about 6' to 10' apart, for decent stereo separation.

Nope. Well, I'm assuming you want something better than your camera's internal mics will pick up. If you do want better, you're not going to get it from the balcony. And if you do want stereo, you aren't going to get it from 6 or 10 foot spacing. At that huge spacing, what you get is "multiple mono".

Recording audio of acoustical music is far more difficult than video. You won't believe that now, because you haven't done it. But if you continue down this road, you'll learn what I'm talking about.

To get you started, you'll need a book. One of the better ones out currently is Richard King's Recording Orchestra (https://www.amazon.com/Recording-Orchestra-Classical-Ensembles-Engineering/dp/1138854549/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1482874196&sr=1-1). This is about as concise an answer as can be given to your question -- it's way more complicated than can be answered in a thread on a forum. There is much to be learned.

But for now, suffice it to say that cardioids aren't typically used in AB, AB is mostly for omnis. Cards do well in ORTF. They'll also work in well in NOS.

Here's an interactive tool you might find useful (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm) also. Shows you visually how the various main arrays work. It's no substitute for using your ears, but it does implement the correct math.

Coincident microphones are going to be a more forgiving, accessible and reliable method than others, and behave better when you don't have many choices for distance from the orchestra.

For a first recording project, your NT5s in X/Y, placed on a single stand or flown above the conductor's head are a great start. Flown mics are a very clean look, if you can pull it off. In either case, you need a good rig, commonly called a stereo microphone bar. Be sure to get one that matches the thread size of your mic clips and stand, 5/8" for most but not all in the U.S. 3/8" is the other common size. You can also get adapters, but, easier to buy the right one from the start.

Strongly agreeing with Paul & Bruce, the balcony is no place for orchestra mics, though it can be a great place to record ambience and applause. Do experiment with mixing in a little of your camera mic in post...

Wow I guess I have opened a can or worms here. I was researching what ORTF means and found some great instructional material like (Visualization of ORTF Stereo Microphone System mic angle 110° spacing 17 cm equivalence system - Array with two microphones Time of arrical difference mic - Stereo recording angle SRA time difference level difference mic orchestra angle degrees visu (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-ORTF-E.htm)) , this helps a lot.

I'll check out the other reading material also.

Thanks for the instruction, KPO.

Kevin - good to see someone coming in here with an audio question like this as I’ve been doing a lot of research trying to raise my audio bar, but in a slightly different setup.

With regard to the orchestra mic setup question, these guys above are heads and shoulders above anything I can contribute but I’d like to comment about the mic placement being in the shoot.

There are a couple videos I’ve seen that were shot with a mic placed like others have said, over the head of the conductor. In one case it was with a 100+ string orchestra and the other with the Seattle Girls Choir.

In the case of the string orchestra, they were on the stage and the mic stand was on the auditorium floor about four feet below the stage, and it was really tall, guessing about 12 feet. The tripod stand had what looked to me to be rather skinny. The videographer had a cable that ran from it to the rear of the theater (it was a big one). Don’t know if it went to a recorder or to the videographer’s cam and he was in the balcony.

The Seattle Girls Choir is in a different large auditorium and the mic is similarly placed - but don’t remember if it was on the stage or the floor in front.

With regard to the mic setup, my take is the stand and the mic is so small compared to the whole stage that it is not all that noticeable, more like a thin black line. Bottom line, if the people in charge don’t mind a mic setup like that then I’d go for it. Have no idea what they were using for the mic setup but the next time I’ll be asking questions.

One thing I’d do differently, though, is avoid a long cable run and just run it to a good Wi-Fi capable recorder at the base of the tripod. I’m using a Tascam DR-44WL with an iPhone and the setup has worked really well but only based on two gigs so far, but there are more in the pipeline. I’m currently working on recitals, solo and small group live performances, and the like. There’s a lot to learn.

Yes this is a very interesting task, recording a large band / orchestra, I had no idea it was so technical. I've only done talking head recordings or watched the sound guys on set do their thing. I want to avoid the long runs of XLR cables but I guess the pro's like to avoid WiFi. I've seen a setup in the same theater I'm recording in that sounds like the one you saw at the girls choir concert. He used all XLR cable also.

I think I discovered that Sennheiser offers a EW-300-G3 kit with a SKP-300 plug-on and a EW-100 receiver. The SKP-300 will give me the phantom power and if Sennheiser offers it in a kit with EW-100 receivers then I can use the EW-100 receivers I already have. This solves my problem.

Next concern, how far does the WiFi reach with the EW-100-G3 system? What is the range?

Thanks, KPO.

How all depends on your budget, and the end users expectations. What it takes to produce "acceptable" recordings of high school ensembles for parent viewing/listening is far less than say, production for a TV network holiday special concert. Researching the available literature is a good start. BTW, the Shure web site has a number of white papers/publications on recording too.

Also, for performances involving material not in the public domain (e.g., recent Broadway shows, from Disney films), be aware there may be copyright issues if selling video. The high schools may have performance rights, but they might not extend to cover video sales. I have heard that in some areas they have stopped sale of performance videos at marching band competitions for this reason. Something you would have to discuss with the band directors.

Considering the simple grade/middle/high school performances scenario:
For high school marching band half time performances I use cardioid mics place on the center of the running track at the 40 yard lines (the band is large, over 200 players plus the pit) so they use most of the field. I've used wireless systems to get the sound to the camcorder on the press box roof. Over the years they have included Shure LX series, AT1800 series (with plug-on transmitters), Shure FP series, and I may try the Rode Newscaster series in the future. The mics I've used have included Sure Beta 58 elements in the LX (rugged), AKG C1000s, AT 2035, and AT AE5100 but there are many other possibilities that can work OK. The NT5 should work OK. (Different ears prefer the sound from different mics.)

You will likely need "dead cats" (the furry wind noise filters) on the mics in outdoor settings to suppress wind gusts. The foam filters are next to useless. While using wired mics should give better sound, the wireless saves managing cables and having someone manning a recorder near the mics and attempting sound sync later. Cardioid pattern is essential to reduce crowd noise pickup (many people at a game are not interested in the marching band performance). Note that placing the mics close to the pit causes their sounds to dominate. And be prepared for the possibility of rain

For indoor performances I typically use a moderate cost single point stereo (AT 825 <discontinued>) place a bit behind the conductor on a high stand (10' or so). I use a black stand, or put black gaffers tape on an shiny stand so it is not as obvious in video. By the way, video of stage band/orchestra performances can be boring unless you have a lot of close ups of performers as they play, meaning you need several cameras in the shoot for a good result, perhaps one fixed wide shot with audio, and one or more doing close ups.

As you have noted, there are a lot of technical things to consider, but the bottom like ends up being - whether or not the customer (it might just be you or the neighbor kids parent) happy with what you produce.

I can't speak to the EW100 G3 but:
Typical wireless mic range is limited by the allowable power of the transmitter and the receiver quality. Typical figures are up to about 100 yards clear line of sight in a electrically clean environment.

Near by transmitters (and even TV transmitters miles away), radio spectrum crowding, and nearby metal structures/objects can reduce this, some times substantially and not always predictably.

One thing I’d do differently, though, is avoid a long cable run and just run it to a good Wi-Fi capable recorder at the base of the tripod.

I advise against this. The name of this particular game is sound quality. No wireless system, no matter how expensive, can equal a simple XLR cable for sound quality. Which is why the people who make a living recording orchestras on location own a lot of XLR cables, but no radios.

The length of run of XLR cables basically doesn't matter. People make 1000' runs all the time -- that's what this technology is designed for. You can even make long runs of Ethernet cable using boxes like this (https://www.redco.com/Redco-EA-4F-and-EA-4M-Set.html). To use something like this, you run XLRs from the mics down the stand to the floor to one of these boxes. Then you plug in your ethernet cable, make your run, and terminate into another box on the other end. Then short XLR cables to your recorder.

Good info here. Without derailing, what would be a good solution for indoor (concert hall) concert band recording if the client is absolutely against a centrally located stand behind the director? Two stands to either side?

There are some very small full range mics available from DPA, Schoeps, ect. that would be just about invisible.
I would not use any kind of wireless, unless it's for start/stop, level adj,
Balanced mic cable runs can be quite long w/o any audible issues. at least 300+ feet, and 4x that for line level. Of course decent cables would be wanted. I would recommend the star-quad type, but a standard single pair would probably be sufficient .

The common audio problem of event videographers in theaters is that you don’t have access/permission/time/equipment to properly place mics. In house techs have access to areas that you don’t and can get around blocking the audience view by hanging mics from the ceiling. Of course it’s easiest if the venue mics it then you get a board feed.

If I have to mic it myself then my goal is to try to cover as large of an area of the stage and reduce picking up audience noise. Usually the only place available is directly in front of the stage. Two mics on stands 15 feet apart and maybe a boundary mic in the center. There are many venues that don’t have the floor space in front of the stage for you to put mic stands without the risk of audience tripping on them. It goes without out saying you need to clear any setup in advance.

In the end you need to decide how much you want to make their problems yours.

Bruce - re:
I advise against this. The name of this particular game is sound quality.
For good sound quality I'd prefer to run the mic audio signal direct to an external recorder and the Tascam DR-44WL has dual XLR inputs (plus two safety tracks) and can provide phantom power. Cam specifications for audio typically don't elaborate very much.

No wireless system, no matter how expensive, can equal a simple XLR cable for sound quality. Which is why the people who make a living recording orchestras on location own a lot of XLR cables, but no radios.
The Tascam is not a wireless recorder.

There are several advantages to using a recorder near the mic, one of them being a short Mogami will work fine so one doesn't have to string a lot of cable, especially when early arrivals are walking around. Personally, I do not like my cables being walked on because of the potential for damage. In an auditorium situation where a cable might be run from the stage to the rear of the building, depending on how it is set up, there is the potential for a cable to get trampled on. With a recorder taped to the mic tripod it makes for a really easy, clean, and neat setup. That's why I mentioned the Wi-Fi capability and it's a personal preference so "your mileage may vary."

The other thing I liked about the Tascam was the ability to remotely stop and start the recording between clips as it makes for easier syncing in post. Less effort to find which clip to match the audio with.

Picture of Tascam with Sennheiser ME-66:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/attachments/wedding-event-videography-techniques/37653d1502274333-request-suggestions-wedding-cake-cutting-img_4379.jpg?

Ambient recording is the hardest thing to get right out of almost everything. If the orchestra is moderately good and large, then you've got so much to consider. The seating arrangement of the orchestra is almost standard - 1st violins on audience left (Stage right), then 2nds, violas and cellos - add in the basses - then another fan of the woodwind and brass + percussion. The dynamic range can be huge - the difference between FFF and ppp is phenomenal once you go above 40 musicians or so, and somewhere will be a guy with a bell tree or a single glock.

If you space the microphones, the furthest sources are also the quietest, so you will lose them with even modest string levels. If flying the mics is out (it usually is unless you plan in advance very carefully) then the conductor can be your saving grace. He or she will be central, often elevated so they can all see the baton. This might give you the possibility of a single stand, perhaps with a heavy circular base on a carpet tile for a bit of isolation, and get the mics up in front of the conductor without obscuring his view and eye contact with the players. It's not the best, but it's a much better bet than further away. The usual 90 degree mic separation might not give you the very edges, but I'd recommend not opening it up because you then get a hole in the middle. You might lose the leader off to one side, but with enough strings, that might not matter.

Kit.
The best and most expensive radio system is nearly as good as a $10 XLR cable - avoid them if at all possible. They use companders to get better signal to noise and the wide dynamic range of an orchestra just doesn't sound good - PLUS - they always pop, splutter and cut out - and batteries always die. Always!

Long XLRs are by far the best solution, a zoom or similar a next best solution, and radio as an absolute last resort. Wifi is too unpredictable to be used at all.

Stereo techniques.

Huge subject - but DO NOT get carried away with ORTFs and Decca Trees. To use these you need to really have a lot of recordings under your belt. They are specialist techniques that done badly sound simply horrible. X/Y, as in the simple coincident par at 90 degrees-ish is by far the most forgiving. You'll find large number of variations that differ by opening up the distance between the elements.

Remember that stereo can be obtained by variations in amplitude between left and right, or variations in time between two mics in different places - or in the clever ones, both! Time errors can make or more commonly destroy your recordings, and if mono is ever in the gameplan - getting this wrong produces cancellation that can sometimes make soloists or even sections vanish totally! Cardioids are most useful. M/S is a definite possibility if you understand how to de-matrix it back to left and right.

For quite a few years I used to be in charge of examining recording by students and they had to do this. It was very rare to hear a good one - even the best didn't match what you hear on CDs, in the movies or on the radio. Most sounded hollow, weak, confused, noisy (electronic AND physical noise), and only a few didn't make your ears ache.

It uses very few mics and goes direct to stereo in most cases, and people assume this means it is easy. It is not!

Bottom line with respect to wireless, is use it only when wired mics are just plain too hard to do.

But back to some core questions that can drive the most effective approach.

What type of group are you recording?
Professional or amateur?
What is your budget for additional gear?
Who is the customer for the recordings?
How good is good enough?

Because beyond applying some basic low cost methods and techniques, better usually costs more, sometimes a lot more.

Thanks everyone for the info, this really helps. Thanks Don P. for your input, you described exactly what I'm am doing. Our HS Band just got back from Nationals so the outdoor recording is done for the season but the indoor concerts (Orchestra, Jazz, Drum Line) are just starting.

I figured if I had a paying customer and the indented use of the recording was for broadcast then I would become an XLR cord wrangler. I think Wireless quality is a good upgrade compared to the previous on camera mic and considering this is all pro-bono work.

Thanks again for all the info, KPO.

I did a similar thing for the several years that my three sons were in high school...video recorded orchestra, band, and choir in an indoor theater and marching band on the football field at half time.

in my case, the band directors had a professional audio guy do the audio recordings and he gave me a copy to sync to my video. it worked really well since he could focus on good audio while i focused on good video. he set up his mics on a tall stand in the center of the auditorium in the first couple rows. that gave him good sound. i was way in the back on either side to get a nice wide shot with one camera and used a second one to get closeups. the mic stand would be in view; so be it. syncing was pretty simple (sony vegas along with plural eyes).

for marching band, i did audio recording for two purposes. first, the band director wanted to show the band how they were doing to improve their scores in marching band competitions. thus, pristine audio wasnt necessary but rather just ANY audio and video to see what they looked like. so i would use an on-camera mic (a Rode SVM that was within my budget). it worked good enough for this purpose.

the second purpose was something for the marching band performers and parents to have as a keepsake. here, we wanted much better audio, so we'd use a studio recording of the marching band performance that i'd sync to video of them at half time. but it was a VERY big effort because i'd record a half dozen half time performances from the sidelines and merged them into a seemingly seamless performance. since the audio and video were no where near in sync, i would meticulously put everything in sync by going thru all 6 video recordings one at a time and stretching them in 10-15 second intervals to be perfectly in sync with the "master" audio track. once all 6 video tracks were synced, i could then do multi-track editing to cut between the various performances to make a "fake" single performance. it turned out realy good but was VERY time consuming.

that's what worked for me.

Integrating video and audio from different performances is a a lot of work, ainly due to tempo shift/drift between and within performances. I've used the "time stretch (preserves pitch)" effect in Audition to match audio to video. As long as one can keep within a frame or two it is not an issue as long as the audio does not lead the video.

"Professional" recordings are a good source for stage concerts if you can get them, and if they are good recordings. In some cases this is a "garage" business and might not be any better than you could do with a bit of practice. I record indoor work to a TASCAM DR100 recorder using wired mics. If video is involved I sync it in post. Indoor wireless would be reserved for mobile mics, such as with a vocalist moving around on the stage.

The companding (compression for transmission and expansion for receiver output) used in analog wireless systems while improving S/N can effect other audio quality, especially transients. However, compression for transmission performed in the digital domain may be less intrusive.

I note that some of the new all digital wireless systems operating in the 2.4 GHz claim 24-bit sampling and low latency (around 4 ms or so).

Please reconsider wireless, your money of course! As I said - wireless is simply designed for this. They all (bar some digital ones) have attenuators built in for when people bellow into them, to prevent distortion in the preamp, and as a result, even on the 0dB setting, there is insufficient gain for quieter pieces recorded at a distance. Only the very expensive ones provide phantom power for condenser microphones, limiting you to dynamics, so apart from a couple of cables present more problems than they solve.

I wish you the best of luck.

Would you guys recommend a pair of omnis or a pair of cardioids for a concert band performance? Looking at a pair of Rode NT5.

It depends. A pair of omni mics would have a more even frequency response.. but.. may pick up too much of the room, sound distant and/or pick up other unwanted sounds.
Cardioids would be safer. It's easier to add reverb to liven it up than to attenuate excessive ambiance afterwards.

I recommend cardioids for recording events with a live audience. Located between the audience and the ensemble. This will give around 10-20 dB suppression of audience noise. They have a reasonably wide pick-up pattern to cover the group, and provide a reasonable polar pattern at different frequencies.

Publications | Shure Americas (http://www.shure.com/americas/support/downloads/publications)
is a source with a lot of information on recording in a school/church/educational type of environment.

I would recommend cardioids for a simple set up. I find mics above the conductor to be too close. I prefer right off the stage or even as far back as the 3rd or 4th row of seats. A lot depends on the hall and what type of sound treatment it has. If possible hang the mics from the ceiling to keep your shot clear. If you are shooting from the balcony a single tall mic stand is not very noticeable in a wide and if you're punching in on specific instruments you most likely won't have it in shot. If it's that the house objects because it is blocking someones view, then hanging from the ceiling is the way to go.

When setting up your mics do some testing to make sure you don't get any strange combing effects. Wire your mics. Don't use wireless unless you have a strong stomach and tolerance for problems. Live performances are impossible to fully control what type of strange waves are floating around and having one less thing to worry about goes a long way.

My first pick for quick, a easy setup for orchestra recording are a pair of Schoeps CMC641's in XY. For better stereo imaging, in my opinion, I like M-S but it takes more in post. If you're project doesn't have budget for mics like the 641's, almost any decent pair of cardioids will do. I've even gotten good recordings with very budget mics like the iSK Little Gems ($50 ea). Just make sure that whatever mic you use can handle the dynamic range and has low enough noise so that the very quite passages can be reproduced without a lot of noise. I would recommend using a recorder or mixer with good mic pre's as this will really help reduce the noise in your signal path.

To see what a single mic stand in the middle looks like in a recording you can take a look at this video:
https://youtu.be/_PsPO0_5dRc

Recording orchestras are fun and very rewarding. I actually find it easier to record a full orchestra than a quartet or even a single piano. Have fun and experiment. There is no one way to skin this cat and you'll find that a few basic techniques can give you some really impressive results.

I usually put my mics on a stand about 10 feet in back of the conductor (around the 1st row of seats in the place we normally use) and fairly high - maybe a couple of feet higher than the conductors head. I always use M/S with a pair of Schoeps - figure 8 and Cardioid (or even Omni if the audience is well behaved, which they usually are, or maybe a Hypercardiod if they're noisy like when I record a brass band at the mall before Xmas.) I record into a Sound Devices 722 at the base of the mic stand (which by the way is gaffer taped to the floor!!!)

One of the reasons I back the mic stand a bit away from the stage is that I video from the balcony and it keeps the mics from blocking the line of sight to the orchestra. I usually have three or four cameras in the balcony, one locked off wide covering the whole orchestra, one locked off relatively tight on a soloist and one moving. In the case of a piano concerto I usually have a small camera on stage looking through the piano at the soloist's face and I sometimes have another small camera looking out at the audience from the back of the stage. If I can find space to set it up I like to have another small camera (even a GoPro) looking at the director's face. I run an output from the 722 into a digital wireless and have the receiver in the balcony feeding a sync track to each camera through a MOTU Audio Interface. The on-stage cameras are on their own! Again it's only a sync track. I bought a few refurbed Canon Vixias when they were on sale for $100 or so at B&H and that's what I use on stage - if one of them gets trampled it isn't the end of the world!

I used to run an XLR cable to the balcony but getting it laid in place with covers where it crosses aisles etc is a horror show and takes forever. The digital system is clean enough for a sync track and it saves schlepping a ton of cable and a lot of work. As it is, I can get everything set up and checked out in under an hour. The only thing I need help with is carrying the kit up to the balcony but there's always somebody willing to help. Aside from that it's a one-person deal.

I also tend to use an M/S mic for orchestra and acoustic ensembles but it is usually the Sony ECM-MS957 which outputs an A/B signal so is easier to handle.

You can also adjust the width of the mic and if budget is tight then even the smaller ECM-MS907 can give good results.

Placement is best a few feet back from the conductor or wherever you can put it in the room to be out of way and get best results and sometimes I hook the mic up to a small Canon HF11 camera as a locked off wide shot and stereo recorder combined.

I usually put my mics on a stand about 10 feet in back of the conductor (around the 1st row of seats in the place we normally use) and fairly high - maybe a couple of feet higher than the conductors head. I always use M/S with a pair of Schoeps - figure 8 and Cardioid (or even Omni if the audience is well behaved, which they usually are, or maybe a Hypercardiod if they're noisy like when I record a brass band at the mall before Xmas.) I record into a Sound Devices 722 at the base of the mic stand (which by the way is gaffer taped to the floor!!!)

One of the reasons I back the mic stand a bit away from the stage is that I video from the balcony and it keeps the mics from blocking the line of sight to the orchestra. I usually have three or four cameras in the balcony, one locked off wide covering the whole orchestra, one locked off relatively tight on a soloist and one moving. In the case of a piano concerto I usually have a small camera on stage looking through the piano at the soloist's face and I sometimes have another small camera looking out at the audience from the back of the stage. If I can find space to set it up I like to have another small camera (even a GoPro) looking at the director's face. I run an output from the 722 into a digital wireless and have the receiver in the balcony feeding a sync track to each camera through a MOTU Audio Interface. The on-stage cameras are on their own! Again it's only a sync track. I bought a few refurbed Canon Vixias when they were on sale for $100 or so at B&H and that's what I use on stage - if one of them gets trampled it isn't the end of the world!

I used to run an XLR cable to the balcony but getting it laid in place with covers where it crosses aisles etc is a horror show and takes forever. The digital system is clean enough for a sync track and it saves schlepping a ton of cable and a lot of work. As it is, I can get everything set up and checked out in under an hour. The only thing I need help with is carrying the kit up to the balcony but there's always somebody willing to help. Aside from that it's a one-person deal.

This response is a little off topic:
Hello Jim, you seem to have a similar event / environment setup as I will. Mic the stage and shoot from the balcony. Not sure how you do it alone and setup in one hour. But I like your idea of several accent cameras picking up special angles from stage level. I have several GoPro's I could use for this but do you let the on-stage cameras run the whole show?

Everything runs for the whole show - or at least as long as the batteries will last (Ha!) I do use a couple of gopros on stage and I hang an auxiliary battery with them. I TRY to start them from my iphone but it doesn't always work. It's quite a a challenge running up to the stage from the balcony and wiggling through the orchestra to start them manually.

Good news in a way is that the orchestra usually schedules concertos in the 1st half of the concert so the odds are good that the batteries will hold up long enough to get at least that much.

Getting it all set up in an hour is a challenge and no way I could do it until I got the Audio Technika wireless to replace the 100 feet of XLR cable to the balcony. The other thing I do is set everything up the night before at home and leave as much cabled together as I can transport in a large plastic file box. For example I plug all the cables into the MOTU box tagged with the camera they run to and stuff the MOTU with cables into the box. Because the AT receiver is so small it goes into the box with the MOTU. Cameras with lenses attached go into another large plastic box or two. The mics are set up on a holder and cabled to the SD722 and a backup recorder is cabled to the 722 as well. I had Markertek make me a custom cable so I can run an output from the 1/8 jack of the 722 to the transmitter as if it was the mic. This all goes into another "FOH" box cabled together as much as possible.

I can usually press someone in the first row into service as a "guard" to watch the FOH stuff for me - and as I said I tape the mic stand to the floor with a LOT of gaffer tape. I've recorded the same group in the same venue often enough that I can pre-set record levels pretty closely ahead of time and just make a quick tweak while the orchestra is tuning up. I have one set of headphones in the FOH box and another in the box with the MOTU that goes to the balcony with me.

I usually work up quite a sweat getting it all in place!!!

I used to run an XLR cable to the balcony but getting it laid in place with covers where it crosses aisles etc is a horror show and takes forever. The digital system is clean enough for a sync track and it saves schlepping a ton of cable and a lot of work. As it is, I can get everything set up and checked out in under an hour.


This just made me smile - the sound of the event is controlled by the amount of work you have to do? Seriously?

I have just filled my van to the brim, and am driving 300 miles. I have rolls and rolls of gaffer. A flightcase full of cable, rubber cable strips and quite a few doorway width pieces of carpet that will cover cables with less of a hump that the rubber stuff. I have bags of ties, clips, and even some nails and a small hammer hidden away. Some nylon cord, and other stuff. Tomorrow I will be 60 feet up running some cables up from the stage, over the top and down again to a camera position. I'm sitting here, looking at a 6 way rack of radio mic receivers. Should I unload all that stuff and just take this little rack and some radios? Not a chance!

I'm sorry to be blunt here, but you have been told the best methods, and you are choosing the simplest and quickest solution, ignoring the sound, and accepting compromise. It's up to you of course, but whats the point of asking for advice, then rejecting it because you're a little short on putting in time and effort to do the best job. I want the best sound, not the easiest sound.

I just do not understand the concept of compromise, unless the reasons are serious. Safety is one. Cost of course is another - but then the client has the call to make. We can do it for £X, if you need to do it for £Y, then the result will be Z - is this acceptable? Any compromise to the sound is then not your problem.

In a weeks time 3 people will spend best part of a day putting in a big PA for the same event - the sound designer has decided two cabs will go in a certain place. The easy place is 5m away. He wants them in exactly the correct place - so ropes, a cherry picker, scaffolding and tricky cable runs will be the result. Nobody complains - quality is the game here. They will have hundreds of metres of cable to run in, kit all over the place. Some will have to be fished through ducts, and others dropped behind wall panels.

This is the real world. If a couple of XLR cables is too much work, I'm a bit sad. When you listen to the result you will have to accept the compromise and convince yourself a bit of extra work would not have been worth it. The nasty THWOP the radio system suddenly makes you can ignore, and the over-ambient sound just one of those things. Blame it on the venue, the time allowed, the spur of the moment TV crew who turned on their transmitters without checking the frequency was in use - not expecting anyone would be daft enough to risk a radio link for a recording?

The title said it all - mic placement. People advised, advice rejected for all kinds of reasons. Just record it from the balcony. It might be a bit blurred and indistinct and audience contaminated, but at least it will be interference free. If you get to the end with a phutt free recording. It was sheer good luck.

...I run an output from the 722 into a digital wireless and have the receiver in the balcony feeding a sync track to each camera through a MOTU Audio Interface. The on-stage cameras are on their own! Again it's only a sync track...
I used to run an XLR cable to the balcony but getting it laid in place with covers where it crosses aisles etc is a horror show and takes forever. The digital system is clean enough for a sync track...

This just made me smile - the sound of the event is controlled by the amount of work you have to do? Seriously?...
I'm sorry to be blunt here, but you have been told the best methods, and you are choosing the simplest and quickest solution, ignoring the sound, and accepting compromise...
I just do not understand the concept of compromise, unless the reasons are serious. Safety is one. Cost of course is another - but then the client has the call to make...
This is the real world. If a couple of XLR cables is too much work, I'm a bit sad...
How late were you up packing the van for the drive, and how stressed are you? You’ve misread Jim’s post.

I’ve quoted his plan with some bold emphasis added. He is recording an M/S pair direct to stereo on a Sound Devices 722. The radio link is only being used to provide a sync track to a distant camera.

I would not be sad about Jim’s setup! There’s certainly room for debate on best micing practices for orchestra, but the methods he is using are fully capable of the classic coincident / near-coincident technique at a high level of quality. His primary recording - Schoeps M/S array to Sound Devices 722, placed above and behind the conductor, at a sufficient height - well, I wish all my direct to stereo projects started with this gear and placement!

Oh boy, a lively discussion! I write something up and get ready to post and someone beet me to it!
Seth - that’s how I understood it too.

Jim - Correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand your post it appears you’re is using the Sound Devices SD 722 “High-resolution portable recorder” with the two mics cabled directly into it. The SD 722 is spec’ed out at 24-bit/192kHz for recording and does WAV, BWF, and MP3 formats. I assume the mics are the main ones being used to record the performance and not just for a safety track. Since the two mics are directly cabled to the recorder one would think the audio track would be just as good as if the recorder was back in the balcony a hundred cable-feet or more away. Is my rational correct?

Two mics, two comparatively (less than a hundred feet) short cable runs direct into the SD recorder … I’m not sure how the audio chain could be improved.

If this is correct, that’s exactly how I did it (my post #15 earlier in this thread). Had the whole rig set up the day before so just had to mount it on a tripod and aim the mic. Total on-site set-up a few minutes. Not only did the iPhone app + the WiFi control the recorder (Start, Stop, and Gain). No fuss, no muss.

Clarification Note: The Tascam DR-44WL field recorder is not a wireless recorder. Also, current Tascam street price is only $229, which is less than some wireless mics. I have a small suitcase full of cable with my favorites in another case but they weigh a ton!!! The Tascam is ohhh …. so nice! (Also lighter when having to fly somewhere)

First, Mic Placement: Sometimes when a venue or director get crusty about stands and mic placement you have to go outside of the mic stand box. I have the brass 1/4 20 thread adapters for all of my mic clips. That means for 2 bucks apiece I have a ton of options for placement. I can put a mic anywhere I can mount a camera. I can use low mount compact table top tripods (ie: on edge of stages), gorilla pods to wrap around bars and rails, clamps, suction cups, and all of my GoPro mounting kit. It also lets me use a lot of the stuff in my lighting grip kit to mount mics. Those adapters open up a plethora of creative options.

Second: Paul made laugh....again! Anyone who has ever laid 1,000s of feet of XLR on a single gig or rigged hundreds of feet of Socapex through truss understands where he is coming from. I think the point does apply to the small video pro that will never have enough gear to fill a van. For less than the price of a single wireless mic you can put together a very nice assortment of XLR cable that can run several mics properly. As said (very loudly), live event mics should be wired whenever possible. How and where you run the cable is a whole other story, but it is not rocket science. Lets just say it almost never goes in a straight line from point A to B. Stepping on it does not generally harm it. But we run it so bare cable does not get trampled anyway.

Front of house cable runs are immaculate. Back of stage can get downright crazy and Murphy lives everywhere. After a crew of 20 of us spent twelve hours building a show we took a much deserved meal break before the technical rehearsals began. While we were gone one of the clients had complained big time to the venue because some of the rear stage house lights were burned out. The building engineers came in and ran over a 24 channel 300' XLR mic snake repeatedly and destroyed it. You talk about SHTF! The next few hours were tense and ugly as we punted to replace that snake with what the staging company had left in the truck. The irony of it all....those house lights were NOT burned out. We had unscrewed them so they could not go on!

Kind Regards,

Steve

First, Mic Placement: Sometimes when a venue or director get crusty about stands and mic placement you have to go outside of the mic stand box. I have the brass 1/4 20 thread adapters for all of my mic clips. That means for 2 bucks apiece I have a ton of options for placement. I can put a mic anywhere I can mount a camera.

But that is, of course, the problem. Where you can mount a camera is typically not where you need a mic. Ok, it's hardly ever where you need a mic.

If you can't put a stand on the stage where you need it, you can try flying the mics -- cables from above. This often means running a strong small cable from side to side, then dropping a mic pair from the middle. The variations are endless, and endlessly frustrating even when you've figured it out. But you can use this method (if you can get permission) to put mics out of the visual line yet still still in place for excellent audio.

Halls were they record practically every performance (e.g. Vienna Musikverein "golden hall") can have permanently installed "ceiling grids" of mic cables. All you have to do is pick the ones in the right position for what you need, attach your mics, and off you go. But that hardly ever happens for guys like us. Just sayin'.

...While we were gone one of the clients had complained big time to the venue because some of the rear stage house lights were burned out. The building engineers came in and ran over a 24 channel 300' XLR mic snake repeatedly and destroyed it. You talk about SHTF! The next few hours were tense and ugly as we punted to replace that snake with what the staging company had left in the truck. The irony of it all....those house lights were NOT burned out. We had unscrewed them so they could not go on!
Wow! That's a client who needs a meeting planner! And, a bit more common sense.

Back when I was doing more of this work, we were fortunate in (usually) working with great meeting planners. This meant two things - clients complained to the planner, not directly to the house, and he/she could appropriately filter requests and demands. Second, the staging producer would be invited to the setup meeting with house department heads, and could proclaim "everything back of the curtain line belongs to us! We will work with you on service paths etc., but here is my cell # if you need to do *anything* else backstage!"

That's an expensive snake! Not to mention the challenges of going live without it. I've often wished that house engineers & other staff had a bit more sense too, but, they just do what they're told.

Now, now, now. Never said the sound is controlled by the amount of work. Remember - the long XLR that was replaced with the AT wireless was just for sync track to the cameras. All the other audio parts and pieces are happily ensconsed up front close to the action. I prefer to keep the recorder in the balcony with me, but that turned out to just be impractical when I could only get access to the venue an hour or so before the concert and everything had to be out of there within an hour or so after. Ideally I would have set up the night before but that didn't work so I had to find a way to work within the available time. So I did. Without, IMHO, compromising either video or audio quality.

To confirm Seth's understanding, yes the Schoeps are the main mics and cabled directly to the SD722, which is getting a bit old, but certainly not a shabby piece of kit. I record at 96k/24bit.The 722 has a 1/8 inch stereo output that I merge to mono and run into the AT System 10 transmitter. The two mini XLR outputs run directly to a Tascam backup recorder. Everything runs on battery power and is stuffed under the first row of seats. I have on occasion put a pair of DPA mini's inside the piano adhered to the underside of the lid, but I'm more likely to do that for solo/small ensemble.

Because of the layout of the venue, the cables have to cross aisles and then run 75 feet or so down an aisle to the back of the house, and then be gaffer taped to the walls, cross the top of a doorway, then more wall climbing and then run along the front rail of the balcony. Just not worth it for sync track IMHO. I don't have a van, but I do have an SUV and it getss pretty damned full of gear.

All the video is color balanced/corrected in Resolve, all the audio is cleaned up with Izotope RX 5.

Bruce, "anywhere I can put a camera" was a poor choice of words. I am saying I can put a mic anywhere I can use one of those alternative mounts. It works.

Seth, In those days it was not "my show". I was the video playback operator. Yes, the days of frame accurate Beta decks stacked up in front of you. After the snake was crushed the finger pointing was intense. Luckily for me I did not have a dog in that fight. I kept my head down and learned from it for future experience. Even backstage cabling should not be pure spaghetti. How can you troubleshoot if you can't track cable....

Since then I have eaten more than my fair share of free cookies as the Hospitality Managers put on the dog and pony show at pre-con meetings.

Kind Regards,
Steve

I'd love to be able to fly the mics, but it's a no-no since there's no over stage cabling and I'm not about to try to improvise something hanging from the chandeliers over people's heads. Having the mic stand in the aisle isn't my first best choice either because of the foot traffic but as I said I tape the stand to the floor and also to the rail in front of the seats.

Sorry Jim - I misread that, my fault totally. Just a thought. Is there actually any need for the sync feed, as the camera audio would do the same thing to align the recording with the images? \

I just had that thought in my mind of the balcony recording we were investigating earlier, and missed the new important update. Sorry again.

In large venues there is a delay for the sound reaching a camera in the back. Syncing based on the audio will make the video out of sync. This is most noticeable when filming someone speaking.

In large venues there is a delay for the sound reaching a camera in the back.
Video travels at the speed of light, audio at roughly 1000 feet per second. So if the camcorder is 100 feet from the stage, the audio lags video by 3 frames.

The human brain understands this if the image conveys the distance to the sound source.. However, if the audio leads the video it will seem unnatural.

Video travels at the speed of light, audio at roughly 1000 feet per second. So if the camcorder is 100 feet from the stage, the audio lags video by 3 frames.

The human brain understands this if the image conveys the distance to the sound source.. However, if the audio leads the video it will seem unnatural.
It is noticeable otherwise he wouldn’t be going to the trouble of sending the audio to the rear cameras.

Yes, the lag is noticeable. Particularly when you're showing a tight close-up of a pianist's fingers on the keys. Without the perception of distance in a tight shot 3 - 4 frames is a problem. At least it's a problem for me!

And by the way, Paul, no problem I know you were well motivated. I'm too old to take anything personally.

The other problem I’ve run into occasionally is that in a noisy or reverberant environment, sometimes the post sync softward can’t resolve the two audio sources. Ouch! If your nice direct sound recording is too different from the camera sound recording there can be trouble.

I wouldn’t think that a problem in a concert hall... but it is worth bearing in mind. For our automatic sync digital magic to happen there needs to be some substantial similarity between the two recordings.

Risking bad sync can have big consequences. For long-form performances in a single take it’s not so bad to manually do a sync or two, though it is yet another skill to develop. If you have to do 10 or more it can get bad!

Another potential gotcha’: Always always all devices should be recording at a standard 48KHz sample rate. If you have an audio recorder capable of 96KHz such as Jim’s that works too. Some cameras and many recorders allow 44.1 or even 32KHz sample rates - using them (even for reference tracks) can greatly complicate post-sync, depending on the software.

The point I made badly is that if you have to sync the camera to the real audio, then even if you feed a cable, you still have to slip the video against the record sound, so the room sound gets you to roughly the right place, and then moving them into sync has to be done whatever, so the few frames is surely irrelevant? I don't use any clever software to sync my theatre stuff, ever. There are always visual clues. The delay from the house PA to the audiences ears is so short in a theatre, up to the balcony that it can be ignored. In a stadium it's significant, but a recording that far away would sound terrible anyway.

I use PluralEyes and it's worked quite well for me. I've had as many as 8 cameras running so I'll gladly use any automation that works.

While using a digital 2.4gHz wireless should get a much cleaner and less delayed signal for sync than just using the balcony camera's local mics, remember there is some amount of delay in the digital processing of the new wireless mic systems. It might be less than a frame, but it's easy to test out and find exactly what this amount is. That way if something seems slightly delayed even with a wireless connection, you'd know what it was coming from.

Yes, you're absolutely correct - there is still a few millisecond delay. The System 10 latency is spec'd at 3.8ms.which would be roughly 1/10 frame. I can live with that. Allowing for a little more latency through the MOTU box it's probably closer to 1/5 of a frame. I can live with that as well. If they want it any better than that they can get me an assistant or two and I'll run cable. I remember one time I did have two people running cable and after it was all done it turned out the male and female ends were swapped. Which is why I carry a couple of short cables with convertible ends as gender changers.