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All about using the Canon 1D X, 6D, 5D Mk. IV / Mk. III / Mk. II D-SLR for 4K and HD video recording.


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Old February 1st, 2016, 12:17 PM   #1
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5D4 Wish List

The interval between the announcement of the 5D2 (17-Sep-2008) and 5D3 (2-Mar-2012) was 3 years, 6 months. As of tomorrow it will be 3 years, 11 months since the announcement of the 5D3.

Chris doesn't like rumor sites, so let's not go there. Let's consider our wishes, at least the realistic ones.

Photos

* Improved sensitivity
* Roughly the same pixel count
* Improved frame rate
* Improved autofocus with more points
* Wi-Fi connectivity, plus an app that lets you get stuff into your phone. (It's always bothered me that with a nice DSLR in my hand, if I want to shoot a quick photo and immediately tweet it, I need to use my phone.)

Video
* Improved resolution without increased aliasing. (Even Canon execs have publicly lamented the softness of the image required by their anti-aliasing solution.)
* Improved sensitivity.
* Reduced rolling shutter.
* Deeper bit depth recording option to support HDR video.
* 4K? It would be nice, but it's not likely. Maybe at 24/25 fps only. Maybe windowed only. We will see...
* 60fps @ 1080p; 120 fps @ 720p.
* Advanced auto focus.
* Better video metering and focus tools. It's about time that Canon catches up with Magic Lantern in 2010.
* Wi-Fi? This is less important for video that photos. I might want to tweet/instagram/facebook a photo with friends in the moment, but I don't do vines. Video editing and sound are as important to me as the pictures.
* Accelerometers for fast, optimized stabilization in post (or even in-camera). Yeah, this is a long shot, but could be killer. By far the biggest pain point for DSLR shooting is stabilization. With full-frame, stabilizing within a crop window could be sweet. Then again, this would threaten IS lens sales and would one-up their Cinema-EOS line, so this is highly unlikely.

Anything else that people would like to (and would expect to) see in the 5D4?

Regarding timing, let's leave that to the rumor sites, though with my daughter expecting in September, I would hope that I can upgrade by then. Nothing like a new camera for taking baby pictures - and I'm sure that she would make good use of the 5D2. :)
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Old February 1st, 2016, 01:14 PM   #2
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

all the above and I'd like to see an onboard app with camera tools such as Dof calculator etc.
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Old February 1st, 2016, 04:04 PM   #3
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Re-summarizing my list above, in addition to typical evolutionary improvements, the new stuff I'd most like (and expect) are:

1) Better resolution/anti-aliasing for video
2) Higher frame rates
3) Advanced autofocus
4) Wi-Fi for photos,
5) Video tools (This is less likely, given Canon's history.)

And given that we're highly unlikely to see accelerometer metadata recording for stabilization, every millisecond of better rolling shutter performance is highly appreciated.

More bits in the codec might also be unlikely, but sure is nice to have in post. If I expected it, I'd insert it as the new #2 in my list above. And by bits I mean both bit depth (10 or 12 vs 8) and mpbs.
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Old February 2nd, 2016, 01:31 PM   #4
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Looking at the 1DX2...
Official Canon Website Release EOS 1DX2

Built-in Wi-Fi is unlikely as it's an add-on module for the 1DX2 that will cost hundreds of dollars. C'mon. A $30 ChromeCast dongle has built-in Wi-Fi these days. I don't need blazing fast Wi-Fi, but it would be nice to be able to tweet a small DSLR photo in the moment. I think that Canon (and many high end photographers) doesn't see this a "pro" activity. That said, many professionals are on social media and promoting one's self in the moment is certainly a "pro" activity for this group.

The 1DX2 does true 4K at 60 fps. The 5D4 doing UHD at 24/25 seems reasonable. Same with 1080@60 and 720@120.

In fact, windowed 4K appears to be Canon's solution for crisp, anti-aliased video. You don't need any in-camera processing; you just need to be able to move and record the data fast enough. We will see what the camera does in HD mode. My guess is that it would use a similar anti-aliasing process as the 5D3 and only be slightly sharper, if any sharper at all. No worries as windowed 4K offers true, optical anti-aliasing. If you want crisp HD video, shoot 4K and let the computer down res it with heavy brickwall filters in post.

Dual Pixel AF looks to be an across-the-board feature. I think Canon sees this as the "killer app" for video - especially because it can sell new lenses.

Regarding "more bits", given that the 1DX2 doesn't have it, we can't really expect it for the 5D4. No surprise there. Motion JPEG @8-bits appears to be Canon's 4K solution. (FWIW, when you down res UHD to HD, you are doing a 4:1 data reduction. This effectively gives you 10-bit HD from 8-bit UHD, if you process it at higher bit depths.)

Of course, predicting the 5D4 at all is just conjecture. (Might it be the "5DX"?) We will see...
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Old February 2nd, 2016, 05:30 PM   #5
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst View Post
...Dual Pixel AF looks to be an across-the-board feature. I think Canon sees this as the "killer app" for video - especially because it can sell new lenses...
I hope Canon does phase in DPAF across everything, with Face Detection!

Speaking as an official Olde Fardt, who has sneered down his nose at AF anything for over 30 years, I am so amazed that with DPAF Canon has made something that's truly useful to many pros. And, even better with a touch screen! (which doesn't seem to be coming to every new camera...)
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 07:20 AM   #6
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

SInce the 7D MII and the iDx II has the new sensor technology the 5D MIV coming with a better sensor than now is a given thing, if it doesnt cant get anyone to buy it.
1DX and 5D MIII had similar video capabilities so considering the simlar video capabilities in the new 5D might be a good thing.
With Nikon and Sony making the 4K available to everyone, 5D new without 4 k might be a loss to canon.

i have loved the 5D II and 5D III and used these cameras with great love till date, (eventhough the current camera to do video is GH4 ;) )

My wish from new 5D is 4k 60p a cfast card slot, improved sensor , some video features like zebra and focus peaking , not sure why magic lantern can do it years back and Canon engineers still need so long .

Since the Canon 80D is doing rounds and hinting at 28 or 29 mp sensor i am not sure if new 5D will maintain same sensor MP as before.

Call it Day dreaming :)
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 12:29 PM   #7
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Yeah, the GH4 and a7S II have put the 5D on the back foot.

Nice point about the 1DX and 5D3 having similar video capabilities. That gives me hope for the 5D4 not being left behind.

On CFast, that's a tough decision. 1D buyers will pay for CFast, but will the prospect of replacing media hurt 5D4 sales? I'm not sure. If Canon were Apple, they'd go for it as Apple drops old tech quickly. With Canon, I can't predict one way or the other.

I can see Canon giving better exposure monitoring, but regarding focus peaking, they might figure that DPAF is their prime focus tool.

Regarding resolution, Canon already introduced the 5DS and 5DS R for pixel peepers. My feeling is that they will focus on speed and low noise above resolution with the 5D4. That would be in line with current strategy as well as the a7S and a7R approach from Sony. Some want top performance, others want top resolution, and you can't get both from a single model. So I predict that the 5D4 gets a 20-ish MP sensor and down the road the 5DS2 will be the new high resolution model.

Again, this is all conjecture. I have no inside information here.

Here's a thought experiment... Lets say you want UHD (2160p) in an ASP-C window of a 3:2 full frame sensor. Here's how it works out:

Video width: 3,840 (ASP-C)
Photo width: 3,840 * 1.6 = 6,144 (Full Frame)
Photo height: 6,144 * (2/3) = 4,096 (Full Frame)
Resolution: 6,144 * 4,096 = 25.2 MP

FWIW, the current 5D3 resolution is 22.3 MP (5,784 x 3,861). A step up to 25.2 MP seems reasonable.

Then again, there is no magic requirement that a 4K window be APS-C at a precise 1/1.6 factor. But it would be nice for APS-C lenses to be used, especially when you want a wide angle solution.

We will see!
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 10:17 PM   #8
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Jon,
Good point made

I see that the Nikon or the sony folks giving sensor crop mode which really helps when shooting video as it avoids downsizing each time frame from the 22 mp to the 8 odd mp required . Canon had a nice feature in a camera called the T3i (i still have it) and then they simply abandoned it , so surely they have the technology and its old but there seems to be a reluctance to implement it again, the downsizing of each frame reduces the processing time for each video in camera.
I am very hopeful of the new 5D next what ever they call it in their ever swanky way.
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Old February 5th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #9
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Most people (inlcuding myself) have jumped ship now from Canon. They were left back at the start line. Too slow out of the traps. Unless the specs are as good as the A7sII who in their sane mind would buy one for video?
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Old February 7th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #10
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Good point about needing to compete with the a7S ii. Assuming that the specs are in the same ballpark, some might choose Canon for lens compatibility without the need for an adapter.

FWIW, I once had a metabones adapter fall apart after wheeling a dolly around with camera and lens mounted. The screws are tiny and stripped. We were lucky not have the lens crash to the ground.

Of course, we shouldn't condemn or praise the 5D4 until it's announced. It might surprise us - for better or worse.
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Old February 8th, 2016, 06:32 PM   #11
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

To be honest Jon (and I know I'm contradicting myself here) I miss the way Canon cameras renders the colours. I believe the a7s2 has improved over the a7s but Im stuck with two a7s for the moment. My eyes have now adjusted to make what the a7s produces seem normal but initially I was pretty dissapointed and considered going back to canon straight away at the time. I played with picture profiles etc. to try and chase that canon quality but to no avail. But the clarity in the image is what kept me with the a7s. The sharpness and detail felt close to RAW from the Canons and the sensitivity of the sensor is a revelation. Now that premiere pro cc has greatly improved for color correction the colors problem is not so bad. But I always know the sony colors when i look at a video online. Theres a look thats just not 'wow' that no amount of grading seems to be able to get rid of.
If and its a big if, the 5d4 blows us away with 4k and the legendary canon colors along with a good screen and useful video tools I would consider it.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 10:32 AM   #12
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

I see the same. I've rented the Sony FS700, which is a fantastic camera for HD Slo-mo, but the look is slightly blue and the texture slightly harsh. Trying to grade it is like EQ'ing a so-so microphone - you can make big changes, but you can't easily make the subtleties great.

For some recent pieces, we used the FS700 for b-roll. High-speed recording was great as we only had so much eye candy and slow motion playback lets us milk it for all it's got. But for the interviews we used the 5D Mark II with Mosaic Engineering anti-aliasing filter. The AA filter removes the harshness of older DSLRs and gives the image an analog, liquid smoothness compared to the visible softness of the 5D3 digital AA solution. This smoothness and nice coloring is very attractive for near closeup interviews.

As always, there's no one winner. There's the best tool for a given budget and a given purpose. With Canon colors, windowed 4K, and slo-motion HD - plus touchscreen autofocus, the 5D4 would cover more of those purposes.

And I've got to say that I still really like the versatility of a V-DSLR. Lately, I do more photos than video, so it's great to cover both functions with a single purchase.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 04:29 PM   #13
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

Its all weddings I do Jon so the form factor suits me. I like when guests say to the B&G that they didnt even see a videoman at the wedding. So for me its a VDSLR form factor for life and yes when its time to upgrade its the most enticing model at that time I would go for.
Yes I know that blue cast you refer to. And funnily when you try to warm it it goes in the direction of yellow which just doesnt look right either.
That sounds really nice how you seem to be getting an organic smoothness from the 5d2.
Aren't we getting very fussy these days :) Imagine how happy we would have been 10 years ago with the cameras we have now...
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Old February 10th, 2016, 01:03 PM   #14
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

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...Imagine how happy we would have been 10 years ago with the cameras we have now...
That's why I still haven't upgraded. At a certain point it's more about time, energy, inspiration, etc than about the tools.

Of course, if I was hired to create 4K documentary footage, I'd have upgraded some time ago.
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Old February 10th, 2016, 10:35 PM   #15
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Re: 5D4 Wish List

[QUOTE=Jon Fairhurst;1908106]
* Improved sensitivity
* Roughly the same pixel count
* Improved frame rate
* Improved autofocus with more points
* Wi-Fi connectivity, plus an app that lets you get stuff into your phone. (It's always bothered me that with a nice DSLR in my hand, if I want to shoot a quick photo and immediately tweet it, I need to use my phone.)

Video
* Improved resolution without increased aliasing. (Even Canon execs have publicly lamented the softness of the image required by their anti-aliasing solution.)
* Improved sensitivity.
* Reduced rolling shutter.
* Deeper bit depth recording option to support HDR video.
* 4K? It would be nice, but it's not likely. Maybe at 24/25 fps only. Maybe windowed only. We will see...
* 60fps @ 1080p; 120 fps @ 720p.
* Advanced auto focus.
* Better video metering and focus tools. It's about time that Canon catches up with Magic Lantern in 2010/QUOTE]

This wished for spec would compete against the new 1D X so I highly doubt the 5D IV, should it ever eventuate, would ever aspire to these sorts of specs so I'm not holding my breath. Would be lovely but I fear anything in the Canon DSLR line is not going to offer much in the way of video enhancements. As Canon have stated if you want full video spec go see the Cinema 'C' series lineup. Or buy a 1D X... and then deal with 800Mbps 8-bit MJPEG with baked in color. No C-LOG even!!??

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