5D4 Wish List

Jon Fairhurst · February 11th, 2016, 04:22 PM

That's the rub, isn't it?

If the 5D4 does too much, it cannibalizes 1DX2 or EOS-C. If it does too little, the competitors leave it in the dust.

I predict the key difference between the 5D4 and 1DX2 as frame rates. The 1DX2 does 4K@60 and FHD@120. That leaves room for the 5D4 to do 4K@30, FHD@60, and HD(720p)@120.

And yes, the back-end codec always seems to be a differenttiator, doesn't it?

Personally, I think Canon shouldn't worry about 5D4 video feature stealing 1DX2 sales. (Disclaimer: the following is far from black and white. Lots of crossover here...) Pro photographers buy the 1D series. Prosumer photographers go for the 5D series. Video pros go for the C series. If the 5D video isn't good enough, I'm simply not going to pay for a 1DX2. I'm either keeping my older 5D2 for photos and getting a C100 MkII, or I'm jumping ship for a competitor's V-DSLR.

I perceive the 1DX2 as the #1 premium photo camera, and I don't seem myself paying for that luxury. For that money, I want C-series video features, and the 1DX2 doesn't quite offer that. (Like you say, no C-Log.) For that money, I don't want video compromises. On the other hand, if I can get very good photo and video quality for under 3K, I can live with DSLR video workarounds.

I hope we don't have to wait too long to learn the answers.

Jon Fairhurst · February 11th, 2016, 04:43 PM

For fun, I looked at the timing of various Canon DSLR announcements:

August 2005 - 1D2 & 5D
May 2007 - 1D3
Sept 2008 - 5D2
Sept 2009 - 7D
Oct 2009 - 1D4
Oct 2011 - 1DX
March 2012 - 5D3
April 2012 - 1DC
Sept 2012 - 6D
Sept 2014 - 7D2
Feb 2015 - 5DS & 5DS R
Feb 2016 - 1DX2

Reading between the lines, it looks like the 1D and 5D are sometimes announced at nearly the same time. This implies either separate teams or simultaneous development. The bottom line is that their announcements aren't necessarily staggered. The 5D, 6D, and 7D, on the other hand, tend to be staggered by a year or so. It's been a year since the 5DS was released.

Anyway, there's nothing that implies that a 5D4 wouldn't be released soon - unless Canon sees the 5D as a high resolution camera. In that case, the 5DS is still fresh and the next video DSLR might be the 6D2. Note that the 6D is 3-1/2 years old.

Personally, I have no doubt that there's room for a ~$3,000 high sensitivity, ~25MP, full frame VDSLR. The 6D like looks to be the budget full frame camera in the ~$1,500 range. I expect that we will get both with the 5D4 delivering 4K@30 and the 6D2 delivering MP4 FHD@30.

Again, this is just conjecture. I have no inside information. DVInfo is not a rumor site! :)

Ger Griffin · February 11th, 2016, 06:00 PM

I think the 5d at each time was quite close to whatever the flagship was at the time in terms of specs (please correct me if Im wrong).
Obviously performance of the flagship was slightly quicker but I think mainly the difference was ruggedness, shutter life and the various components it requires to make a camera survive the onslaught the media guys would inflict on a camera.

Ger Griffin · February 11th, 2016, 06:49 PM

Jon Im guilty of not reading your previous posts. It was more a reply to Christopher.
Good points made.

Jon Fairhurst · February 12th, 2016, 02:00 PM

In any case, good point about the rugged build of the 1D line. Extended battery life is the other pro feature that most amateurs don't need.

Jon Fairhurst · February 18th, 2016, 11:25 AM

So... Canon announced the 80D camera. This gives some clues as to what we might see with the 5D4 (or 5DX or whatever.)

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ographers.html

For reference, the 80D is a $1,200, crop camera that is positioned below the 7D2 crop cam. This pretty much sets a floor below any new $2,500 - $3,000 full frame camera, given that the 5D2 started the VDSLR revolution. (Well, the Nikon D90 was first, but lacked the 5D2's quality.) Let's see how things might match up:

* Sensor size: 80D: 24.2MP. That's in the 25MP ballpark that would allow the 5D4 to shoot native, crop 4K.

* Video: 80D: 1080p60. That's in line with my 5D4 HD guess. Given today's market, I can't see the 5D4 adding anything less than 2160@24/25 (probably UHD@30.)

* HDR: The 80D has HDR movie mode. Not sure if this is a gimmick. If the 5D4 supports SMPTE ST-2084 recording and HDMI output, that would be killer.

* Time Lapse: The 80D has it. It would be great if the 5D4 has it too. Using an external intervalometer is cumbersome at best.

* Autofocus: The 80D has DPAF and touch screen. This is clearly Canon's across-the-board strategic technology. It looks like pretty much all Canon video cameras above a certain line will get this.

* Wi-Fi: The 80D has built-in Wi-Fi®2 and NFCTM2 for transferring photos to mobile devices. I hope that the 5D4 planners didn't take the "pros are snobs who don't use social media" attitude. Being able to shoot a photo or video and immediately review it on an iPad Pro would be killer. You'd really know if you nailed focus.

* Video Tools: Some unexpected goodies on the 80D include a new, electronic zoom lens controller and a shoe-mount mic. It has anti-flicker for fluorescent lights (also on the 7D2), though I don't know if that's for photos-only or video too. No word on other video tools, like zebras and such, but clearly Canon is taking video seriously in its new, consumer DSLRs.

So, assuming the above plus the always-expected sensitivity improvement, does such a 5D claw back some VDSLR market share? To me, it would gain parity (at least), plus the Canon brand and direct compatibility with all those lenses. If it gets 10-bit, ST-2084 HDR recording and HDMI output, it would leapfrog to the front of the line.

Jon Fairhurst · February 18th, 2016, 11:37 AM

One feature difference between the 80D and the current 5D line is that the 80D has a flip-screen.

Yeah, there are times that this would be more convenient than attaching a monitor. That said, I expect that the 5D4/X/whatever would keep its fixed screen for ruggedness as does the 1DX2. I think Canon is right in thinking that consumers want convenience while pros do too, but not at the expense of reliability and robustness.

Jon Fairhurst · August 3rd, 2016, 10:35 AM

It looks like Canon is preparing to announce the 5D4 (or whatever it will be called.) Canon has announced an event starting on August 27th in Japan called "Five Graphy"

Here's a human-improved (I hope), machine translation from the Japanese website:

The release of model after model of the "5D" has delivered new shooting capabilities worldwide that could not have been imagined during the era of the film camera. A large photo exhibition will present its culmination.

Thirteen "5D" photographers from around the world will exhibit works at nine galleries in Ginza Umeda. In addition, 16 photographers will present special seminars.

Please feel the expressive power that has driven the era of the "5D".

?????FIVEGRAPHY???????????

Rumor sites predict that the next 5D will be announced a day or so before the event. Rumors aside, the Five Graphy event is a concrete announcement from Canon.

Buba Kastorski · August 3rd, 2016, 12:24 PM

5graphy, wow,
does this mean new 5D will shoot 5K? :))
Raw? :))
in my dreams :)

Jon Fairhurst · August 3rd, 2016, 01:14 PM

Maybe it will be the 5D Mark "5graphy"

I just realized something: In Japanese, 5 is pronounced "Go". So this event celebrates the "Go D." In other words, it's the god of cameras. ;)

Jon Fairhurst · August 17th, 2016, 03:37 PM

The rumor sites now claim that the 5D4 sensor will have 30.4 megapixels. Is this true? I have no idea. Don't trust rumors.

That said, it's fun to run the numbers. So... what *if* it's a 36mm x 24mm full frame sensor with 30.4MP? That would mean 6753 x 4502 photo sites or so with 187.6 photo sites per mm.

Now let's assume that there is a 4K window for capturing 4K video.Let's assume true cinema 4K of 4096x2160 (rather than 3840x2160 UHD.) That would cover 21.8mm x 11.5mm. That's a bit smaller than ASP-C (22.5 x 15) or Super 35 (24 x 12.65 for the 4K 1.896:1 aspect ratio.)

But it's not far off either. 21.8mm x 11.5mm gives slightly less vignetting, a slightly larger circle of confusion, and a slightly tighter shot for the same lens compared to a true cinema camera. But unless you see images from two cameras with the same exact lens side by side, you'd never know the difference.

Anyway, at 30.4MP, windowed 4K is viable. I assume this solution, given that Canon wasn't happy with the soft images from the 5D3 filters, 4K is trendy, windowed 4K is in the 1DX Mark II, and windowed 4K is the easiest way to get sharp video without additional aliasing from a full frame sensor.

So it's viable. But 30.4MP it's still a rumor. We will know more in a month or so.

Chris Hurd · August 24th, 2016, 09:42 PM

It's official: Canon USA reveals EOS 5D Mk. IV with 4K, new L-Series Lenses at DV Info Net (full press release & photos)

Please continue the discussion at this link: Canon USA reveals EOS 5D Mk. IV with 4K, new L-Series Lenses forum discussion

Thanks all,

February 11th, 2016, 04:22 PM	#16
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List That's the rub, isn't it? If the 5D4 does too much, it cannibalizes 1DX2 or EOS-C. If it does too little, the competitors leave it in the dust. I predict the key difference between the 5D4 and 1DX2 as frame rates. The 1DX2 does 4K@60 and FHD@120. That leaves room for the 5D4 to do 4K@30, FHD@60, and HD(720p)@120. And yes, the back-end codec always seems to be a differenttiator, doesn't it? Personally, I think Canon shouldn't worry about 5D4 video feature stealing 1DX2 sales. (Disclaimer: the following is far from black and white. Lots of crossover here...) Pro photographers buy the 1D series. Prosumer photographers go for the 5D series. Video pros go for the C series. If the 5D video isn't good enough, I'm simply not going to pay for a 1DX2. I'm either keeping my older 5D2 for photos and getting a C100 MkII, or I'm jumping ship for a competitor's V-DSLR. I perceive the 1DX2 as the #1 premium photo camera, and I don't seem myself paying for that luxury. For that money, I want C-series video features, and the 1DX2 doesn't quite offer that. (Like you say, no C-Log.) For that money, I don't want video compromises. On the other hand, if I can get very good photo and video quality for under 3K, I can live with DSLR video workarounds. I hope we don't have to wait too long to learn the answers. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 11th, 2016, 04:43 PM	#17
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List For fun, I looked at the timing of various Canon DSLR announcements: August 2005 - 1D2 & 5D May 2007 - 1D3 Sept 2008 - 5D2 Sept 2009 - 7D Oct 2009 - 1D4 Oct 2011 - 1DX March 2012 - 5D3 April 2012 - 1DC Sept 2012 - 6D Sept 2014 - 7D2 Feb 2015 - 5DS & 5DS R Feb 2016 - 1DX2 Reading between the lines, it looks like the 1D and 5D are sometimes announced at nearly the same time. This implies either separate teams or simultaneous development. The bottom line is that their announcements aren't necessarily staggered. The 5D, 6D, and 7D, on the other hand, tend to be staggered by a year or so. It's been a year since the 5DS was released. Anyway, there's nothing that implies that a 5D4 wouldn't be released soon - unless Canon sees the 5D as a high resolution camera. In that case, the 5DS is still fresh and the next video DSLR might be the 6D2. Note that the 6D is 3-1/2 years old. Personally, I have no doubt that there's room for a ~$3,000 high sensitivity, ~25MP, full frame VDSLR. The 6D like looks to be the budget full frame camera in the ~$1,500 range. I expect that we will get both with the 5D4 delivering 4K@30 and the 6D2 delivering MP4 FHD@30. Again, this is just conjecture. I have no inside information. DVInfo is not a rumor site! :) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 11th, 2016, 06:00 PM	#18
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	Re: 5D4 Wish List I think the 5d at each time was quite close to whatever the flagship was at the time in terms of specs (please correct me if Im wrong). Obviously performance of the flagship was slightly quicker but I think mainly the difference was ruggedness, shutter life and the various components it requires to make a camera survive the onslaught the media guys would inflict on a camera.

February 11th, 2016, 06:49 PM	#19
Ger Griffin Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 579	Re: 5D4 Wish List Jon Im guilty of not reading your previous posts. It was more a reply to Christopher. Good points made.

February 12th, 2016, 02:00 PM	#20
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List In any case, good point about the rugged build of the 1D line. Extended battery life is the other pro feature that most amateurs don't need. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 18th, 2016, 11:25 AM	#21
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List So... Canon announced the 80D camera. This gives some clues as to what we might see with the 5D4 (or 5DX or whatever.) http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ographers.html For reference, the 80D is a $1,200, crop camera that is positioned below the 7D2 crop cam. This pretty much sets a floor below any new $2,500 - $3,000 full frame camera, given that the 5D2 started the VDSLR revolution. (Well, the Nikon D90 was first, but lacked the 5D2's quality.) Let's see how things might match up: * Sensor size: 80D: 24.2MP. That's in the 25MP ballpark that would allow the 5D4 to shoot native, crop 4K. * Video: 80D: 1080p60. That's in line with my 5D4 HD guess. Given today's market, I can't see the 5D4 adding anything less than 2160@24/25 (probably UHD@30.) * HDR: The 80D has HDR movie mode. Not sure if this is a gimmick. If the 5D4 supports SMPTE ST-2084 recording and HDMI output, that would be killer. * Time Lapse: The 80D has it. It would be great if the 5D4 has it too. Using an external intervalometer is cumbersome at best. * Autofocus: The 80D has DPAF and touch screen. This is clearly Canon's across-the-board strategic technology. It looks like pretty much all Canon video cameras above a certain line will get this. * Wi-Fi: The 80D has built-in Wi-Fi®2 and NFCTM2 for transferring photos to mobile devices. I hope that the 5D4 planners didn't take the "pros are snobs who don't use social media" attitude. Being able to shoot a photo or video and immediately review it on an iPad Pro would be killer. You'd really know if you nailed focus. * Video Tools: Some unexpected goodies on the 80D include a new, electronic zoom lens controller and a shoe-mount mic. It has anti-flicker for fluorescent lights (also on the 7D2), though I don't know if that's for photos-only or video too. No word on other video tools, like zebras and such, but clearly Canon is taking video seriously in its new, consumer DSLRs. So, assuming the above plus the always-expected sensitivity improvement, does such a 5D claw back some VDSLR market share? To me, it would gain parity (at least), plus the Canon brand and direct compatibility with all those lenses. If it gets 10-bit, ST-2084 HDR recording and HDMI output, it would leapfrog to the front of the line. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 18th, 2016, 11:37 AM	#22
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List One feature difference between the 80D and the current 5D line is that the 80D has a flip-screen. Yeah, there are times that this would be more convenient than attaching a monitor. That said, I expect that the 5D4/X/whatever would keep its fixed screen for ruggedness as does the 1DX2. I think Canon is right in thinking that consumers want convenience while pros do too, but not at the expense of reliability and robustness. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 3rd, 2016, 10:35 AM	#23
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List It looks like Canon is preparing to announce the 5D4 (or whatever it will be called.) Canon has announced an event starting on August 27th in Japan called "Five Graphy" Here's a human-improved (I hope), machine translation from the Japanese website: The release of model after model of the "5D" has delivered new shooting capabilities worldwide that could not have been imagined during the era of the film camera. A large photo exhibition will present its culmination. Thirteen "5D" photographers from around the world will exhibit works at nine galleries in Ginza Umeda. In addition, 16 photographers will present special seminars. Please feel the expressive power that has driven the era of the "5D". ?????FIVEGRAPHY??????????? Rumor sites predict that the next 5D will be announced a day or so before the event. Rumors aside, the Five Graphy event is a concrete announcement from Canon. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 3rd, 2016, 12:24 PM	#24
Buba Kastorski Trustee Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,414	Re: 5D4 Wish List 5graphy, wow, does this mean new 5D will shoot 5K? :)) Raw? :)) in my dreams :) __________________ I love this place!

August 3rd, 2016, 01:14 PM	#25
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List Maybe it will be the 5D Mark "5graphy" I just realized something: In Japanese, 5 is pronounced "Go". So this event celebrates the "Go D." In other words, it's the god of cameras. ;) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 17th, 2016, 03:37 PM	#26
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: 5D4 Wish List The rumor sites now claim that the 5D4 sensor will have 30.4 megapixels. Is this true? I have no idea. Don't trust rumors. That said, it's fun to run the numbers. So... what if it's a 36mm x 24mm full frame sensor with 30.4MP? That would mean 6753 x 4502 photo sites or so with 187.6 photo sites per mm. Now let's assume that there is a 4K window for capturing 4K video.Let's assume true cinema 4K of 4096x2160 (rather than 3840x2160 UHD.) That would cover 21.8mm x 11.5mm. That's a bit smaller than ASP-C (22.5 x 15) or Super 35 (24 x 12.65 for the 4K 1.896:1 aspect ratio.) But it's not far off either. 21.8mm x 11.5mm gives slightly less vignetting, a slightly larger circle of confusion, and a slightly tighter shot for the same lens compared to a true cinema camera. But unless you see images from two cameras with the same exact lens side by side, you'd never know the difference. Anyway, at 30.4MP, windowed 4K is viable. I assume this solution, given that Canon wasn't happy with the soft images from the 5D3 filters, 4K is trendy, windowed 4K is in the 1DX Mark II, and windowed 4K is the easiest way to get sharp video without additional aliasing from a full frame sensor. So it's viable. But 30.4MP it's still a rumor. We will know more in a month or so. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

August 24th, 2016, 09:42 PM	#27
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Re: 5D4 Wish List It's official: Canon USA reveals EOS 5D Mk. IV with 4K, new L-Series Lenses at DV Info Net (full press release & photos) Please continue the discussion at this link: Canon USA reveals EOS 5D Mk. IV with 4K, new L-Series Lenses forum discussion Thanks all, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!