frame mode at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders > Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog

Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog
Can't find it on the XL1 Watchdog site? Discuss it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 18th, 2004, 08:02 PM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: london / bournemouth
Posts: 22
frame mode

what is the diference between 24p and frame mode on an XL1 / XL1s?

Are there any drawbacks with frame mode?
thanks,
alex
Alex Harding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2004, 08:22 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Posts: 721
Huge difference. Half your resolution is tossed when in frame mode. The new XL2 in progressive is full frame. You will need light for scenes of low contrast where you could pull it off before in 60i.
Jimmy McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 18th, 2004, 09:38 PM   #3
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: london / bournemouth
Posts: 22
thanks,
im still struggling a bit here though. i can understand why shooting de-interlaced would half the resolution, though i'm still unclear as to the specific advantage in such high resolution ccd's in a camera that records at 720 x 576.
cheers,
alex
Alex Harding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2004, 05:31 AM   #4
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,294
Frame mode on the XL1/XL1s uses green pixels from one field and red/blue pixels from the othe field to form the frame, a vertical pixel shift as it were. It removes inter-field motion effects, similar to progressive scan, but does result in some loss of vertical resolution because you are not using a full sampling of each line in each field.

Also 24P is 24 frames per second, with NTSC frame mode is 30 frames per second, so you will see the frame rate effect differences in moving objects and pans/tilts.

Nominally the vertical resolution of a normal interlaced NTSC image is 480 lines, simple field doubling would give 240 lines, and frame mode nets on the order of 360 lines.

Whether or not the visual effect is huge will depend on subject matter and viewing system. And of course which looks better is in the eye of the beholder.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2004, 12:45 PM   #5
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,195
it's not the half of your resolution that you loose. It's only 25 % of the vertical resolution (or horizontal, one of both).
That's what I read though.
Mathieu Ghekiere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 06:59 AM   #6
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
<<<-- Originally posted by Jimmy McKenzie : Huge difference. Half your resolution is tossed when in frame mode. -->>>

That is not true, neither of the frame mode or the de-interlacing
on computers these days. The exact loss is not known (also
because it depends on the footage you shot etc.) but it certainly
is lower than half.
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 07:04 AM   #7
New Boot
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: london / bournemouth
Posts: 22
so...

so, aside from the fact that frame mode is a diferent frame rate (actually 25 for me since i'm using PAL), and since the resolution difference is an issue but more negligable than first thought, what is so much better about 24p?
Alex Harding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 07:07 AM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Posts: 721
Hi Rob,

Perhaps you can clarify.

My understanding is that the resolution is dropped due to the interpolation or duplication compression of the mystery green pixel resulting in the poorer colour set.

You mentioned that this is not true, but that the resolution loss is around 50% less.

Curious.

Jimmy.
Jimmy McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2004, 07:22 AM   #9
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
I can't technically explain to you what happens since I don't know
exactly. There was an excellent page back in the days that
described it, but I don't know where it is at or if it still exists
today. It is just a known that it is less than 50%. I'll try to refind
the paper.

Edit: it looks like the paper was from Adam Wilt and it is not
currently avaible on the web...
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 02:18 AM   #10
Tourist
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Posts: 2
So what you're tryng to say is that if you shoot using Frame Mode in conjunction with 16:9 the pictures will move from being awful to TRULY awful?

I don't mean to sound like I'm flaming, especially on my first post. I've only recently purchased an XL1S and immediately took it into work to see the results on prefessional monitors. I probably didn't shoot enough footage to do a good job of it, but I didn't see much resolution difference between the frame mode and standard, at least nowhere near as much of a resolution drop as there was between 4:3 and 16:9.
Leonard King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 05:37 AM   #11
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,294
Frame mode composes a full frame image based on the data read from green pixels on one field and the red & blue pixels in the other field at the same time, so ther is no inter-field motion blurr. This gives it a progressive-like look. Because the image is updated every 1/30 (1/25 for pal) it tends to have a more film-look for motion than standard video.

Because image is formed from data sample from every line in the image it can have higher resolution than an image based on a single field. However, the exact resolution will depend somewhat on the content of the image, especially the mix of colors and their purity present in the image. I believe the resolution will be lower for objects containing single pure primary colors, and higher for objects with a blending of primary colors.

On the average, it tends to fall halfway between 480 and 240 lines.
__________________
dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com
Don Palomaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 06:58 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Waterloo Ontario
Posts: 721
Thanks Don. So that being the case, the difference when moving up to the XL2 is at a completely different plane. Full RGB colour space on progressive captured frames?
Jimmy McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 07:14 AM   #13
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: kathmandu, nepal, no kidding!
Posts: 62
wow u guys lost me here! i have read that frame mode (sometimes mentioned as movie mode) can be used to give XLS1 footage a more movie-like look. I have a PAL and was hoping to do exactally this. (softer look). Am i on the right track? thanks!!!
jigs
__________________
For more Adventures of Herojig,
see www.extreme-nepal.com or
go read the NEPALI TIMES every
Friday.
Jiggy Gaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 07:19 AM   #14
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
Leonard: it is known that there is a massive drop of resolution
in 16:9 mode because it is no true 16:9. Every other camera
that is not true 16:9 (most of them) has this, with exceptions
like the new XL2 (true 16:9).

Normally the picture is 720 x 480 pixels in 4:3. However, in these
faux 16:9 modes the picture is cropped to around 720 x 364 and
then stretched back to 720 x 480. So you loose 116 pixel rows
or almost 25% (probably even more since it also needs to stretch
the picture up).

If you care about the resolution you will be better off with an XL2
with native 16x9 and true progressive. Or you can get an
anamorphic attachment for the XL1S.

Personally I always just cropped the information and work with
the loss. The camera still produces incredible images in my mind,
resolution isn't everything either (people are currently "complaining"
about moire patterns with the XL2 due to the fact it is very sharp
with a much higher resolution).


Jimmy: that is correct!


Jiggy: yes it can certainly help. But as I have "preached" before,
there is much more to a "film look" than simple settings. The
primary things being:

- story (script)
- acting (actors)
- framing (and thus camera support gear)
- lighting
- editing
- audio recording + music

etc. etc. it all works together!
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2004, 07:23 AM   #15
Tourist
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Posts: 2
I did have a play on the XL2 and considered it, however the cost kind of left me behind. I was only able to convince the wife to let me have the money for the XL1S because it was on serious special.

I knew about the 16:9 issues going in, so that's not such a big problem. I can always find a way around it. However I'm glad I now have a better idea of what's going on in Frame Mode. That will be very handy down the track.
Leonard King is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Canon EOS / MXF / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Canon HDV and DV Camera Systems > Canon XL and GL Series DV Camcorders > Canon XL1S / XL1 Watchdog

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:33 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network