CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted
 

Hi Guys,

We wanted to keep the momentum moving on the proposed CineForm HDMI Recorder. I've posted a page on our website with the proposed feature specs and a conceptual diagram: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm. You cannot navigate to the page from our website other than through this direct link.

We'd enjoy any comments....

David.

WOW!!! Beating a path to your door!!, Oh wait I did that already.


Questions abound.

1 "USB: interface for attachment to record bay" Any USB we choose or CF Proprietary product?
2. “Time code recording (Spec TBD)” woohooo

3 “Ordered play list queue “ (digital signage use) Maybe Ethernet port for remote control and upload/download??

Let me know when you need a beta tester.....

I'd like to use this on a Canon HV20 from the HDMI port.....

What about using small lap top disk drives that you could mount on
a slide in tray...

That way a person could purchase a couple of trays and populate the tray with what ever size of hard drive they'd want... ??

And you could have a tray reciever (optional) that would be able to plug into your computer for transfer.......either firewire or USB interface.

USB is general, so you can record to any media that is fast enough -- about 20MB/s sustained will be needed. We are imagining an optional 2.5" USB drive bay that would be contented by USB, although you could add any third party drive. We will have some issues with disk format, as third party flash media will be typically FAT32 format which has 4GB file size limitation. I'm not a big fan of chunking the files up, but we will have to that if FAT32 media is used (For CineForm 1080p24 you will have about 4minutes per chunck.) We are looking to use UDF as that is compatible to all OSes, OS X, XP/Vista, Linux and supports >4GB files. I'm supprised more aren't using it, Grass Valley Infinity cameras record to UDF REV disks, and they work great. Cross platform support is important to us, that is why this will record MOV or AVI.

This is a great idea, thanks. If is offered for about $500, I will definitely get one. And if I was rich, this would definitely be the kind of Christmas present I would get to my (video-loving) friends. It's just so cute and useful especially for us HV20 users. Thanks again.

Yes. We think there are lots of remote playout applications, and we intend that this offerts good functionality.<br><br>

Maybe. We were thinking updates could occur through USB. And because all recording media (CF or laptop drive) is detachable, wouldn't it be easy enough to detach the record media from the recorder and plug it in to an Internet-connected PC or laptop?

Oh my god! I'm ready for pre-order right now!
btw, how much it could be? Your estimated price, from-to..

About quality modes, I still hope SP is equal to FilmScan1?

Well, I think it should cost "intensity+Core2Duo-book", but no more!

Yes, SP would be FilmScan1 -- of course.

Price, can't say too much at this stage, this thing does a lot more than today's compressed Firewire based DDRs, yet we hope to be competitive in price that style of camera attachable recorders.

The spec says possible RCA audio. Can the Canon XL H1 XLR audio be easily converted to RCA and still record good audio?

Best,
Christopher

Great question Christopher. We'd like to hear from some knowledgeable people on this subject.

It seems that most of the HDV camcorders either have RCA output or a mini-to-RCA or else a custom output pin. None seem to have XLR outputs, and I think the XLR connectors on the XL H1 is for audio input (to the camera) only. The XL H1 has RCA outputs.

For these reasons it seemed RCA was probably the best choice for these class of cameras. Does anybody see it differently?

Ok, here is what would work well for me.

I know you're thinking about SDI in the future, that's great.

But I will be owning a Z1U and EX1, neither of which have HDMI and I don't want to buy a converter as it takes away from the portability of your device. I don't want to have a camera, the Cinform Recorder AND a converter box.

There are a LOT of Z1U owners out there who would want to use this I'm sure.

What would be killer is something with Component, HDMI and SDI to cover all the cameras out there. Maybe that would be too much, but it would help those of us out with multiple cameras.

What I don't want to do is have one device for my Z1U and another for my EX1, unless of course they are cheap enough.

Multiple compact flash card recording would be sweet. Two cards would be great, four even better.

Can't wait to find out more...

David, A couple of items... obviously this is going to be geared for portability, away from studio shooting...

So, I would suggest instead of RCA jacks that you move to BNC jacks...
why? simply because you can't accidently unplug the connectors when using it out in the field... because they lock in place during use. The BNC jacks also can be sourced with dust caps with chain retainers so you can protect the jack when not in use...
these are very professional...

here's the dust cap http://www.smelectronics.us/SC2005B.pdf

As to CF cards, last year while on a shoot in Bali one of the boat crew had just recieved a camera from the home office.... while on a land excursion
she ended up getting sand on the CF card and when she put the card into the camera the mating connector ended up with bent pins... the camera
was toast... CF cards are cool, the bare pins on the recieving connector are
not cool......

How about the material and the surface finish....

Have you seen the new Zeiss Lens and the finish they are putting on them...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0711/zeiss_zfi.jpg

make this baby look and feel like a fine tuned Lambo :-)

I hope you don't mind me slicing and dicing this concept....
we are just brain storming ... right?

Looks excellent, and I definitely wouldn't mind a touchscreen interface for a product like this. You shouldn't be looking at the small LCD for quality assessment/focus/color correction reasons, ever... so why not? I think that would improve speed, which would be my main concern with a product like this - easy to set up and not have to worry about it.

I would have to agree with the comments about non-HDMI cameras like the Z1. I would definitely like a setup like this, and I think it would work very well with the camera, especially if the capture framerate you select doesn't have to match the camera's settings. (i.e. the camera outputs 50i, the recorder records the data as deinterlaced 25p (or even 24p with the 4% slowmo). Maybe something component? *crosses fingers*

With a product like this, it would almost force me to save up for something with HDMI, and I kinda like the Z1. :) Wonderful tool to increase quality and productivity - I can think of nothing else that portable that would improve HDV camera owners' quality so much.

Carl

My own feelings/feedback on this device follows:
1-HDMI is arguably not the best input interface. Prosumer cameras are, presently, using HDMI, however, component or SDI are more consistent with professional level cameras. Further, if HDMI is used, why are there seperate RCA jacks for audio. Audio signals are embedded in HDMI by specification; and, critical surface area could be saved by using a cable incorporating HDMI connector on one end and a breakout of RCA/XLR/BNC on the other end

2-I don't see the reason for incorporating an expensive display. Display of stored content can be accomplished thru the screen on the recording device; already an asset of the user.

3-LAN-C is not a universal command and control interface. Firewire is more common, sharing I/O capability with Fujinon 5 pin or even RS232

4-wild thought: would the design be more future proof by providing a SATA interface to the record deck. Is SATA a feasible interconnect possibility for such a device? A SATA interface provides added value by simultaneously providing for a RAID 0 configuration of CF cards, allowing faster capture/playback data rates.

1) We are going to do SDI at some point, and we going to charge more for it as it is professional format. HDMI is a volume market. Yes we are going to use the embedded audio of HMDI, but what if you using are using a separate sound source? The line level inputs simple add another option. It would nice to support direct mic input, but then the analog section get complex/expensive to design. This is the reason the first model with without component video inputs--doable, but it just takes time.

2) With a camera attached recording device, you are not always tethered to an HMDI display. We thing the display will offer a fair amount of design flexibilty, complex menuing and shoot selection. They are not that expensive. We might do a lower cost unit without the display, but I think the display will be compelling as it something much harder for completing solutions to offer.

3) LAN/C or RS-232, are both serial and somewhat easy to implement, FireWire on the other hand would require more hardware design. Adding Firewire would likely cost more than the screen, it terms of engineering effort. If we can get Firewire on the mainboard, the control elements would be nice.

4) SATA would require much higher-end main controller board, cost would go up significantly. Remember the compressed data will only use half the bandwidth of USB2.0, so SATA would be overkill for 1080p24/25/30.

Just two requests from an indie filmmaker

1) Please Make the Screen as Good as Possible (without becoming overly expensive).
I noticed that you have added a "filp screen" option for people using lens adapters (thank you soooo much!). In the same vien, people using lens adapters will naturally use this screen for focusing their footage as well. For this reason the quality of the screen becomes important, because the unit has become a field monitor as well as a recording device. Using this device as a monitor would also make the touchscreen a brawback becaue of fingermarks. I would hope that the navigational buttons would be enough to operate all the neccessary functions.

2) External Hard Drives Plug Directly into the Unit.
I am in complete agreement with Ray Bell (post #3) on this point. By allowing the user to use any external hard drive with this recording device, the unit becomes extreemly portable. The user could carry the hard drive on their rig or on their body, instead of needing an open laptop. I am dreaming of having a few large capacity hard drives stashed in my kitbag for a full day's shooting!

All-in-all I am very exited about this product! I think that it will make an independent fimmaker, with a HDV camera, a force to be rekoned with. I will be following the development of this product with great interest.

So what about component in as well as HDMI for the first version, that way, you cover the Z1U's and the V1U's.

David,
Thanx, makes sense.

Two card slots would be nice so that you could hot-swap empty cards in place of full cards for continuous extended record times.

LCD screen isn't too important to me, so I hope it doesn't make the product a whole lot more expensive to have it in there.

I just want to bypass HDV compression and get 4:2:2 from my V1U without having to be tied to a PC w/ a BlackMagic setup.

Going straight into Cineform and having the option of recording to CF and/or external USB hard drive is perfect. I couldn't ask for anything else.

Any idea how quickly a product like this could be built and tested? Will it take longer than 6-8 months?

Amen!
 

Genius idea, count me in as beta tester.

I'm tired of lugging my 40Lb "mini" PC with Intensity card around the camera...

A couple of points:

- Capture specs seem to imply Cineform Prospect HD. I'm however very happy with capturing into Aspect HD Large. If the box, in fact, is capturing into Prospect, how will I further use the footage on my Aspect system? Will it be at all compatible??

- RCA in: love it! This will free me up from being locked into the low quality of the on-camera sound - and yet, no hurdles of synching in post like with the double system! Question: How will the analog-in RCA audio signal be mixed with the normal digital audio coming via HDMI? Or is there a switch either-or?

- Battery: why not simply have a connector on the back to slide on the Sony batteries that we already have.

- SATA connector would be very lucrative. Solid-state media is still way expensive at high capacity. 32Gb CF card mentioned in your online specs for the box is thought to be $1300 MSRP alone. 16Gb cards go for $250 now. I'd just throw in a $60 200Gb SATA drive powered by your box, and be done. Slightly heavier, but with the belt mount it won't matter much. SATA Raid 1 with 2 hdds would be even better, to ensure no footage is lost due to bad drive. Cost: my cable TV DVR box provides SATA connection, and I use it all the time to record HD shows, and it's great. Maybe you can think of SATA Raid 1 controller for your box.

- Box should have a very well thought-out *belt mount*. With the battery, possible external drive, and analog audio cables in - you can't mount it on the handheld camera effectively. One HDMI cable from handheld cam to the belt-mounted box is no problem.

- Please install the cheapest monitor possible - so not to increase the pricing on that front. No-one will be able to really use it for real camera monitoring unless the monitor is very high quality - HD resolution - much larger size than on-cam display - gives true brightness/color representation - etc... And since I don't think you're aiming for that, why not just lower the expectations and the *price* by keeping the monitor small and cheap, suitable only for rough video viewing and for menues.

- Hey, you may be able to re-package the same solution used in this box, and license it to RED cam makers to use on their cams instead of RedRAW at up to 2K resolution, maybe.

Nice. With an HDMI cam or adaptor, and if the screen rez is high enough, it could be used in place of an external camera mounted LCD. No larger/heavier than a marshall 7" HDA. I would provide a mount to put that on Noga arm.

Well I thought of another good use for your machine.... :-)

Often times I give a presentation with a front projector....

So, Here's the workflow..

Shoot the footage using the Cineform HDMI recorder, take the recorder to the computer and work the editing magic... send the footage back out to
the recorder.

Take the recorder and projector to the seminar, plug it all in and use the recorder as the playback device into the projector...
To make this work I would need to have seperate audio "output" so I could
feed the audio into a sound system.....

That way I'm now showing HD presentations........ very cool

Ray, we've intended it also for just this purpose (playback). We will inject audio into HDMI - will that work or do you think you need separate audio output? Also, it needs a headphone jack which isn't shown.

Okay, I've posted an update.

I removed the "Non-Committal" comment in the header. The reality is that we want to do this and are actively working on putting the project together.

I've added price. Our target is sub $2000.

I added a headphone jack that was missing.

I also added a section at the bottom of the feature spec that adds many of the comments people have made as feature considerations.

So you don't have to go back to the first post for the URL, here it is again: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

Thanks for the discussion....

Looks great. Can't wait for the product to come out. I would love to be a beta tester for it also :)

David, re. RCA jacks replaced with professional BNC connectors... your box is only semi-professional by design. For instance, the most important part - HDMI input - is flimsy by default (not your fault of course, it's just how the connector standard was designed.)

So if anything, it'd be important to have some plastic hooks to snake HDMI cable between, so it stays in place and does not jump out.

Then, you can do the same for the audio input. I think RCA would be just fine, and certainly better than 3mm connector you're thinking about (the latter wobbles and loses contact, especially since the whole contraption may be belt-worn and moving. This would kill all the advantage of having a great sound if there would be crackles because of bad contact in a 3mm jack.)

Component in and out can be an upgrade option.

This way people who don't have HDMI cams would shell out more for the analog I/O version of your box.

If component-less version of your box sells for $1200, and component IO is another $200, I think it'd seem reasonable to many people.

But... whatever you do... don't take away the analog audio input! I've been pushing for *years* for someone to create a device that'd be able to capture digital video *and* a separate audio source simultaneously to the same video file, eliminating post-production sound synching nightmares that come with double system.

David, although HDMI does include audio the projectors dont have a dedicated audio output like speakers and amps...

So if the presentation room doesn't have a sound system I just bring a
big boom box and plug the audio into that....

and so, the RCA jacks would be nice... and possible a switch for input/output.

If you want to keep the interface clean of cables hanging around you might consider a blutooth output for the headphones....???

OT:
"I've been pushing for *years* for someone to create a device that'd be able to capture digital video *and* a separate audio source simultaneously to the same video file, eliminating post-production sound synching nightmares that come with double system."

Alex...

Take a look at the QC Deck www.nnovia.com

Indeed! I did not know that the box was capable of a playback out of its HDMI output!

David: why not add a Loop mode to the video playback. This way sales people can take your box as a HD video player to the trade shows.

Beats the hell out of any other method of playing HD video in a show booth.

How will bluetooth emittance interfere with the wireless mic systems positioned next to the box?

nNovia looks cool, but I think only one model, QC Deck, has analog connections - and they only work when you also capture analog video, not digital. Or am I mistaken?

10 bit HDMI cameras.
 

Are there any? I have heard only 8bit. Rumor has it the new Sony EX1 is 10bit but it is HDSDI out. I hope we get some nice cameras next year to plug into this little gem!

Well, this may sound like heresy, but firewire input would be nice for cameras without HDMI/SDI etc.

I know the thinking is that component out from the camera should give better (uncompressed) color than firewire m2t, but in reality I've heard a lot of conflicting comments along the lines that capture of component was softer than the firewire capture.

Could just have been a problem re the Blackmagic card, though.

If the component out is really as good as it should be, then component in to this box would be fine, I'm just not sure...

Regardless, having firewire even with all the m2t uglies would give a great option instead of Firestore, Nnovia etc since you could use your own hard drives.

Making a film in March with the HV20-- any chance of it being ready by then ?

Chris, that's a little too soon for us. But you could consider a "luggable" PC with an Intensity card unless the power cord is a big problem.

Jim, it's unlikely we'll support M2T files on this device. It's extra development effort and it's only a secondary feature as there are other M2T recording options. If you want M2T you can always record to HDV tape simultaneously with recording CineForm files.

Well, actually I don't want m2t, I want Cineform. I'd just like it if you'd do the conversion in the box from Firewire so I don't ever have to deal with m2t.

I'd be delighted to use the component route, just concerned that the result might be worse than what I would have gotten via Firewire, even with m2t in the middle.

I'd certainly hope that as a part of the development effort you could do some testing to compare the quality you're getting from component -> Cineform in the box vs Firewire -> HDLink -> Cineform and be sure that the component route gave the better quality.

If this were the case for the JVC110 I'd buy your box in a heartbeat.

Jim, a year ago I had Sony Z1U that only could output Component, and not HDMI, before mpeg compression.

So I've built the whole huge contraption that looked like that: Z1U Component Out -> Blackmagic HD Bridge to HD-SDI -> PC with HD-SDI capture card -> Raid0 recording uncompressed HD.

I did many tests as well.

Sony sent a rep to see how i did it.

I shot a short film like that.

Bottom line: Component out is great, and of course so much better than mpeg-compressed signal. (Disclaimer: at 35Mb/s, mpeg compression might be just fine, but that's not what we get from a $5K Sony cam.)

And, HDMI on V1U is still better than Component on Z1U. V1U outputs 4:2:2 color space over HDMI; Z1U only had 4:2:0 color space.

Component cable CANNOT be too long, since it starts getting interference and signal becomes unusable. Well'shielded Component cables are bulky, heavy, and messy.

HDMI rules :)

That's why Cineform is the new RED for designing this new HDV capture box :)

I owned HDV cams since the very first JVC HD1, and V1U is the first one that is really good - except it does not capture in Cineform Aspect HD format.

Welcome to this forum.