To be clear, all live outputs from all HD/HDV cameras are pre-compressed. Some have been downsamples to 1440x1080 4:2:2 first, but none (that I've aware of) go down to 4:2:0 before their live output. This in not a gift from the camera manufactures, but a practical design issue. The compression engine in camera consumes a lot of power, compressing then decompressing, consumes more power. As these are battery operated devices, the cameras are all only compressing or decompressing, never both at the same time. As a result all live outputs are free of compression artifacts and free of delay. The recorder concept is suitable for all cameras, we just need the interface to make each of the camera types: HDMI, HDSDI and component.

I think we have probably discussed this enough, but to clarify my meaning is in agreement with Bill. I did not mean MPEG2 encoding but the signal has to be encoded and scaled to come out the analogue ports.Significant delay only is visible when there is a GOP involved requiring a time frame for encoding ( the length of the GOP as a minimum). The DSP in the camera reads off the information from the imager, and encodes it for further processing. This could be decoding/scaling to come out of the analogue ports or encoding for recording to tape etc. If one draws the line after the first processing from the imager then there are several routes to follow. Encode the signal to come out of the HDMI port, encode the signal to come out the analogue ports, encode( in this case compress to reduce storage needs) the signal to record to tape( or other record medium). Depending on the camera the encoding could be ....(re-)scale to go out the HDMI port, (re-)scale and filter for the analogue ports and (re-)scale and compress for storage. I have not seen the signal flow from each of the cameras currently available with HDMI so have no idea where these processing elements appear for each model. I have tried to find a write up about the HC3 that I saw some time ago that inferred the output from the DSP was already 1440x1080. It was then upscaled for HDMI to 1920x1080, decoded for analogue and encoded to MPEG2 for tape recording. I will continue to try and find the reference and post if I find again.

Ron Evans

video assist for RED?
 

hi, this looks amazing!

I think this would be a perfect video assist for the RED using it's HDMI output. If the unit is rugged enough and LCD has sufficient quality it could also work as a portable director's monitor/video assist.

It would be great if it could be powered via V or gold mounted batteries on the back of the unit. Add a way to properly secure the HDMI cable connection and a smart touchscreen interface and it would be a dream come true.

Thanks for making it happen (and listening!)

LB

PS. "Solid" sounds cool

Sounds good, but......
 

First of all, great concept, I hope you get it out the door soon. The world of HD videography is evolving very rapidly and is driven by technological advancements that happen so fast that, by the time solutions are worked through on the forums, completely new pathways are announced which render the workout as just an alternative. I can't believe that my first post will this long and complicated, but here are some initial thoughts on the Cineform SOLID solution:

1) I see your competition not just as the tethered 40lb PC or the Firestore-type device, but more so what I have been patiently waiting on for six months now: wireless uncompressed HDMI transmission. Phillips should have its wireless HDMI product out before christmas. Its priced at $299 but has a 33 feet limit (http://www.dailywireless.org/2007/01/11/wireless-hdmi/). Tempting, but what I am really waiting for is a different technology made by an Isreali company, Amimon, that can transmit uncompressed HDMI over distances of 100 feet (through walls) or 167 feet line-of-site (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/no-more-h...rs-293937.php). The large A/V companies have invested a lot in this technology and devices with wireless HDMI chipsets built-in will be displayed at CES 2008 in January. I spoke personally with the company's VP who said that a dongle to retrofit devices will be available at retail in March '08. Motorola has invested heavily in this company, so its for real.

I think this will solve many problems with a tethered setup, but there are limitations. Obviously you couldn't use it to go into the desert (or even go more than 167 feet from a car or temporary camp with a 40 LB PC setup inside), but tetherless short run&gun style, as well as studio and most location shoots should not be a problem. Moreover, it would allow for real time monitoring (no latency) using a production-style 24" or larger monitor, capturing on as big a hard drive as you can get into a PC, while still allowing the camera to roam around tetherless. Amimon has said that the wireless dongles will have a target price point of $200.

So $250 for a BM Intensity card, plus the $200 wireless dongle equals a sweet untethered solution that competes with the SOLID and records directly to your editing computer. Of course, you don't get Cineform plug-in software with either the SOLID or the dongle/Intensity card, but it is nevertheless much cheaper than the proposed $2k Cineform price point (which I believe does not include the Neo or Prospect software, or am I wrong). The Cineform SOLID would be great for certain location shoots (like off road stuff) where electricity and extreme portability would be required. Other than that exteme usage ability, $450 versus $2,000 is a no brainer. So, adding in the cost of a Prospect license ($999) to the dongle/Intensity workflow, the SOLID, bundled with Prospect, is comparable to a wireless solution only if the SOLID+Prospect bundle is priced at $1450 or lower, or unless you need that off-road potential.

Kudos to Cineform for tossing this solution around, but given that Cineform is thinking about $2k for the SOLID alone, its probably not a good alternative workflow for all people. In addition, the pair of 32gig CF cards are not going to be cheap. In all likelihood, I could probably buy a great editing/capture PC to use with the wireless/Intensity/Prospect capture system for the likely price premium of a SOLID/Prospect bundle + dual 32 gig CF cards. Or, since I already own one, put the $1500 or so back in the bank.

But, and here is where I play devil's advocate with myself, I also use DV Rack's monitorig tools to analyze the signal. Of course neither the Cineform SOLID nor the the wireless HDMI solution allows for being untethered from the firewire that DV Rack's (On Location) currently requires. Wireless Firewire is on hold. Unless someone puts a product out that allows DV Rack to read video through an HDMI port, or converts an HDMI signal into a firewire signal, (strong hint) or unless Cineform adds a firewire output to the SOLID recorder, I will still be partly tethered, unless I want to spend a few thou on a production monitor that has built-in scopes. That actually would be my ideal setup if money were no object: Use the Cineform Prospect to capture uncompressed HDMI (either to the Cineform SOLID or the wireless HDMI/Intensity port), use DV Rack's scopes to monitor the luma, colors, etc via a tablet PC (using a firewire port on the Cineform SOLID or through the HV20's firewire port), and use an HDMI out to monitor the framing and focus, either to a portable 8" HD monitor (if using the Cineform SOLID) or to a remote 24" monitor (if using the wireless HDMI dongle - going out through the Intensity HDMI out port).

2) I capture sound via a dual channel Azden wireless system, using either wireless Azden lavs or Rode NTG-2 shotguns with an Azden wireless dongle. The output goes to my HV20's mini-stereo plug. If bypassing the camera's intake system will result in better audio quality, and still be in-sync with the image, then that would be a strong selling point for the SOLID. I really don't care if it is RCA, XLR, ministereo, etc. Its just a different cord from the Azden output.

3) I would definitely like to see a way to mount this (either on rails or to a 1/4 thread).

4) I would like to see a firewire out for possible use with DV Rack.

5) I would like to see an HDMI out for monitoring.

6) I would like the CF slots to be able to handle 32Gig cards (and potentially be upgradeable to 64gig cards -coming soon, no doubt)

7) If I record on the SOLID and download the avi or mov onto my editing computer, will I still need to buy Prospect or Neo in order to work with the files in Premiere CS3? Will I lose anything if I don't have the presets that come with Prospect. Will I be unable to output from Premiere CS3 using the Cineform engine (that's what happened when my trial version expired)?

Thanks and good luck with this. It could be a great solution for many people.

David -

Great job! It's so nice to see a good company listen to the community. Since we have to take what the huge camera conglomerates give us, it's companies like yours that allow us to take what they give us to the next level and get the absolute most we can out of it.

I am currently working on a completely portable, free of tethers and 120v power and under 10lbs (incl. monitor), cineform capture system myself based around the HV20 and it's HDMI output.

And i have to say... bravo. If this works like it's supposed to, and sells for sub 2k like the page states, you can definitely expect me to pick up a few.

Everything on the spec page looks great. My one thing would be (and excuse me for repeating anything, as i haven't read the entire thread yet) to include a fairly high-res/contrast/brightness screen. Seems to me that if you're not going to do that, you may as well make the whole thing smaller (if it's the screen dictating the size) and put a smaller less consumptive screen. It would be a pain to have to carry that thing around AND a decent monitor, especially since your device HAS a monitor. I'm sure you've thought about this, and i know it's easier said than done, but that's a feature above most things i would appreciate more than most.

Also, multiple mounting points would be a plus (Red) - and i'd probably make the device itself black.

Everything else seems fine - no problems here with the RCA jacks (everyone in "pro" video is so stuck on "Pro" connectors). If you're really serious about your audio anyway, you'll be capturing audio separately on another device...

Again, sorry if i'm being redundant, but any idea when this thing is going to market?

Thanks and congratulations...

Dale

Very excited about the prospect of recording high quality sound, which is directly linked to the video. Is that really what you are proposing with the "pro audio" inputs? That would make this device unique. I don't think there is currently any way of recording high quality sound for video without using a physically separate sound recorder, and then synching the sound in post.

But, realistically, how much of the sound system could you build in? High quality AD converters for 24bit 96k PCM stereo? Mic pre-amps? Phantom power?

Could be a real breakthrough product, if you decide to go for it...

Patrick Bower

David, I sure hope you include a 5V power tap for the BM HDLINK.
My only concern is the HDLINK gets real warm. This tells me it probably draws a lot of current. I hope it's not to much a current demand.

Any thoughts on this?

I'm really looking forward to using SDI to a portable solution with Cineform.

A power tap is currently in the features list for the unit, but it is not shown in the illustration yet. It's on the list to dive a bit deeper into the converter specs from the various manufacturers to make sure that adding this feature is feasible.

I love this concept CF2CF (CineForm 2 Compact Flash) :)
How about to release 3 models:
HDMI 8 bit codec for consumer HDV and AVCHD camcorders
HD-SDI 10 bit codec for prosumer camcorders with HDSDI
GIGe for camera heads like SI2K and Sumix to capture into Cineform RAW.

Serge, we do have a family of products planned of which the HDMI recorder is the first. Within throwing distance you've touched on some of the different versions we intend.

Applicable to Red?
 

David(s),

Just wondering how applicable the first version of the box is to Red.

If I read the specs of the Red One correctly from Red's website, the Red HDMI AND HD-SDI ports will only support 720 x 1280.

Also, I'd like to be able to use this product with both my Z1U and my Red.

I'm guessing I'll need to wait for the analogue version.

-Thor

Hi Thor,

The recorder should have no problem recording from any HDMI source. After all, it's the HDMI spec that that defines the signalling, so devices on both sides should be compatible.

Actually, until you mentioned it, I hadn't thought about using the recorder with Red's HDMI output. But this might be a great way to provide dailies, or even proxy files for cuts editing. Certainly you'll usually want to use the R3D source for the online work.

With the Z1U you'll need a component-to-HDMI converter for our first-gen box.

David Taylor,

The dailies idea is a really good one! I wouldn't have thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense.

I wish the Red HDMI would output 1080. I can think of all kinds of problems that would solve. Maybe a future firmware update?

Good luck with this project. I'm excited to see where it goes, and what it might mean eventually for Red owners.

-Thor

How about something like this to hold it? I just came across the eHolster system and I'm digging the shoulder harness. Too geeky? Maybe, but it even has wire management built in, and it looks like they make custom sizes. Check it out here: http://www.eholster.com/casesystems.html

Also, I want to add my vote for component, sooner rather than later. It would kill me to have to wait for an upgraded version to use with my XH-A1...

BTW, I'm not currently a Cineform user, but this thread has motivated me to look at it more closely and the SOLID would definately make me a believer.

Hi, I pointed this out some days ago:

I guess you missed my post. Anyway, great to see you are now aware of this possibilty for the SOLID.

LB

Oh great.

Now the CF recorder users will be shot at by the police who'll think they are carrying a piece :)

LOL! Only it's really not so funny...

Component in
 

Please component in for all the Canon XH A1 owners like me. And the Sony Z1 owners... Why should we wait for an upgrade?

Speaking as a Z1 guy myself... we have to understand they can only really devote the time and money to designing one at a time, otherwise it's just not smart businesswise, and HDMI does make more sense than component for the first release. I hate that it's true, but it is. :(

Carl

They've announced that this is only the first of a whole line of products. Why do some of you feel neglected that they've omitted a certain feature?

I think they plan to support all of what our suggestions are, that's the whole point of this thread. There will just be different devices for different types of users.

I'm personally all for an all-digital-HDMI-only capture device.
It's really not that small of a niche of camcorders anymore that have (or will have) HDMI.

Ok, im not complaining, just want to use it with my main camera that is a Canon XH A1 (as other many people). If a converter component-HDMI is giving me the same quality as component in directly, alles ist gut.

If not ill have to wait till they sale the dual version.

And please Craig relax, just expressing some opinions and wishes, thats what this forum is for.

I think this looks awesome.

Comments:

The price point at $2k limits its adoption. Personally I'd wait for it to come down to $500 or so, and consider it the ultimate accessory for an HV20 like machine.

Would purchase include Neo/ProspectHD? It seems at 1920x1080 10-bit, Prospect would be a must for any purchaser. If it did, then naturally at $2k, it's a bargain.

-Steve

BTW, whatever the policy ends up being, NeoPlayer is free, so even if you don't get ProspectHD packaged with it, you won't be required to pay for new software to at least edit the footage . . . you'll just have limited non-CineForm export options, and lose a lot of the multi-stream real-time treats that ProspectHD gives Premiere Pro. But I would think on a good machine at least a single stream of high-quality HD with cuts-only will playback in real-time with NeoPlayer.

I think $2,000 for what they are offering is a deal.

Look at the HVR-DR60, it's almost $1,500 and all it does is record highly compressed DV/HDV.

For a device that allows you to record visually lossless video at 10-bits 4:2:2 for under $2,000 is AMAZING. Especially something that portable.

Even if it doesn't come with Prospect. If it did, it would be a STEAL!

Just my 2-cents.

In the current market, there's no doubt that its price point is a steal. The question is: which camera owners do you expect to purchase this?

With an HDMI input this kind of device is very attractive all the way up the market - but it stands to compliment $1k cameras just as well as $5k and up machines.

-Steve

Please guys dont ask to pay more... not all the world lives in the USA... here in Europe things change, it costs everything almost 40% more... lets dont talk about SouthAmerica or Africa

And let CIneform support a little bit the poor independent filmmakers... we re a lot and good prices make us buy

Just my 2 euros...

New BATTERIES to power this machine!
 

Here's the new batteries that should power it too:

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2007_12/pr1101.htm

They start shipping in March, 2008

$999.00 and I am in!

As a consumer, that price point makes the most sense for me..... although I wonder if it could be done profitably for Cineform? I really like the pricing on their encoder apps. Made me an adopter.

$2k or $1999.00 puts it as another "Gee, I wish I had one of those" extras.

I shoot non pro stuff, but I want it to look totally pro... so I am eating the cost of cam and accessories just to have that luxury... and another $2k... it will always be a luxury.

Really, that's what it comes down to. The pricing of the parts, which I do not know, is immaterial. This gadget will dramatically increase the quality you can achieve using a small consumer/prosumer camera. The price point is well under any other 'gadget' that can make that much of a drastic improvment on your quality, except for maybe lighting gear if you're currently using lamps from around the house. :)

Carl

LOL, you are comparing the most over priced HDD to justify the price? Personally I also do think the magic number for this device is 1K, but since companies always over charge, 1500 is reasonably too much. 2K is stretching.

At 2K, you start going out of the group of independent film makers into the “big” professional levels, but there they already have powerful systems to handle the larger sizes of professional media. I have worked on many movie productions and something like this would have a difficult time finding its place, at least in the beginning.

I say “big” because most of us here are professional, but do not always have professional budgets. We are talking about HDMI. Why shoot with a RED and only record HDMI which is less than 2k and really less than 4k? Proxies? Red Alert auto makes them! I have played with it, and when FCP supports RED, this proxy idea will be silly.

Let this be what it is, an HDMI recorder that makes great HD recordings, but more than likely targets the independent/documentary crowd who would benefit the most (As well as some others that can see the value in HD like the TV crowd, not the big movie maker crowd.) This is where 2k starts to hurt.

Also, without XLR ports, CineForm is really not convincing the biased pro crowd that the devices shortcoming is acceptable or that on camera audio is good, so you are back to the prosumer or low level pro. I believe that they would consider this too much. Just looking at how many people here in this thread are shocked at the price/value of the device.

Sure you can get an AJA IO HD at 3K, but look at what you get for 1/3 more. (Comparing the overall value, not if 1K is to a lot of money.)

I am interested in the product (even with the CineFrom codec), but the price is the biggest pain.
M

HDMI version priced between $900 and $1200 would make me a buyer.

Before you get your hopes up, there are hard costs to consider. Once we ship many thousands of units, prices may come down, but we do require far more hardware than the equivalent Firewire only DDR, which is only a battery operated disk controller. We are adding bidirectional compression, pulldown filtering, image re-orientation, field upgradable, preview and shot review screen, and a compression format more flexible and higher quality than any previous offering. So we are not going to be cheaper than a Sony HVR-DR60, that market has been addressed $1500, and we intended to much more, and much more than an AJA Io HD, as we trying to get away from tethered only capture, which CineForm already does very well.

David, I'm really looking forward to these portable Cineform recorders.

My understanding is that Cineform plans on releasing an HDMI version before offering an SDI version. Does this still stand as true?

If so, would it be possible to add a +5V tap to have existing BM HDLINK users use the SDI>HDMI adaptors? I'm not sure of the HDLINK current demands, but I'm a bit concerned since it does get warm.

This would really make one heck of a portable Cineform soultion for us Sony PMW-EX1 users! Will unit will be able to offer pulldown off the 1080 60i stream?
So will using the SDI>HDLINK>HDMI, will I be able to capture to the portable Cineform recorder 1920x1080 23.976P?

Most would agree that Sony is much more expensive because of Sony's name. So comparing prices with Sony is silly.

Focus which makes a "similar" product is 800 bucks. Sure it goes up to 1800 bucks by only increasing the HDD. Since you are not including that (Smartly) then there is no reason for that silly market mentality. Like a 100GB HDD cost 1k! Geez

So I can understand with all "extra hardware" you can ask 1500, even though that is high.

However, if it at least had professional audio in, like XLRs, then it would be acceptable to me.

I am confused by this statement on your website: "even Sony doesn't use the FW port on their hard disk recorder (HVR-DR60) for START/STOP control." So how is Sony doing start and stop? I only have a firewire port connected to my DR60 and my camera and start and stop works great through the firewire. (Same as my Firestore.) It would make great sense for your device to start and stop in the same fashion. Otherwise it would be a drastic shortcoming. Imagine having to handhold your camera working the zoom and focus and use your third surgically attached third hand to start and stop.

P.S. The new drawing is way better! (See I am not all hardball!)
M

Considering the technology being mooted here, $2,000 is the bargain of the decade - I'm really struggling to see the resistance here to that price point. If you don't want the best, there are cheaper alternatives. Comparisons with Sony pricing aren't relevant - entirely different technologies plus with all the good will in the world, one small California-based company isn't going to have the low raw costs of one of the world's largest CE manufacturers.

With regards the earlier comment about things costing 40 per cent more in Europe, the phenomenally weak value of the $USD makes this even more of a bargain. Being a computer-style device, the only duties you are likely to attract will be VAT (mileage may vary depending on where in Europe you live).

You can count me in at $2K. It is a bargain. It's amazing Cineform can sell even at that price. Some competitors(which shall remain anonymous) want $5k for their unit.

Glad to read that Cineform has a sense of NRE costs. Don't see how a business can be profitable without understanding that.

"At 2K, you start going out of the group of independent film makers into the “big” professional levels..."

As an independent "pro" (I charge for my services) I would NOT consider myself BIG as I can't afford a RED camera or a Sony F900. Those are BIG items to me.

I just dropped some change for a new Sony EX1 and 2 16gig SxS cards and would rather have spent $2,000 on the Cineform box which would have given me better footage, but alas, it's not out yet.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think of myself as a 'BIG' pro with a BIG budget.

We can't expect Cineform to give these things away. There are hard costs involved in the development and they have to make it work for their bottom line.

Anytime you miniaturize something, it's not going to be cheap.

I can't wait to place my order.

Amortizing those NRE costs is sort of a balancing act based on profit and number of units. Smaller profit would presumably increase units sold. If Cineform manages to license their product for high end hometheatre HD recording, then you could see NRE become a microscopic percentage.

It's a huge undertaking when a company like Cineform has to cater to such a niche' market (us), but the market is never wrong. If Cineform MSRP ends up being "too high", then you'd probably see other value bundled with it, or a price reduction.

And so far as being "big"... do I qualify as a "big" producer when I purchase my $2,000th dollar on tape? It's innovations like this that allow small fry like me to compete with the bigger houses.... I love it.

The value of this new device will be tangible when we see those unMPEG'd images... which by the way, does anyone know if there have been any charts shot comparing the pre and post MPEG output from a Sony Z1 or other HDV unit?

Here are the things I would like to see -

1 - XLRs over RCAs for all the reasons mentioned before.

2 - DC input voltage range that will be able to take a wide range of voltage, at least 15V, but ideally up to 30V

3 - HD-SDI.

I think the market niche you're looking at is a lot smaller than you think it is. I'm betting you're going to hear a lot of 'If it was was $600 maybe, but $2k?! That's more than my camera!'. Although I know there are a lot of serious indies that need to use HDMI cameras for budget reasons, I think there are just as many indies using HD-SDI(EX-1/XL-H1) cameras.

I think the other reason to roll out SDI is to offer this unit as a media replacement for other cameras. CF cards are practically free compared to SxS and P2 cards, and the price gap is only going to get larger in the next year. The unit would pay for itself with saved media cost alone, even without any improvement in the codec. I would own one of these units to go tapeless when shooting a Varicam, or to be able to leave the studio with enough CF media to not have to download/format P2 cards during the day. The media security of not re-using the P2 card in the field would be worth the price alone.

With SDI you'd sell one of these to every steadicam op in the world, just so they could have personal reel material.

I think the pro-sumer market and professional media replacement market will be much bigger than targeting the HDMI market. Besides, The HV20 guys can still add a HDMI->HD-SDI converter and still be in the game for cheap.

You know, I thought going with an HDMI-to-HD-SDI converter would work too but the only one I've been able to find needs to be plugged into a power outlet. If someone could point to one that doesn't need to be plugged in, then I'd be with a lot of you on an HD-SDI version first.

Still, as I've said before somewhere around in here, I think the smartest thing to do is make different versions of the recorder instead of making an all-in-one or one or the other.