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Old August 11th, 2009, 03:08 AM   #1
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Exporting Speeds Neo Scene/Neo HD

I'm trying to export a 25 min HDV file and Encoder is saying it will take 60 hours?

When I tried Neo HD it exported in 6-8 hours

Hardware
2.1 ghz Quad core AMD
8GB Ram
74 1000rpm OS
400GB Raid 1 Editing
800GB Raid 0 Scratch

There has been no other difference in SW/HW so I'm a little confused.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 04:31 AM   #2
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Right a little update. I reinstalled the trial of Neo HD (Got 5 days left)

Exported the same video and again took 60 hours. Tried difference disks same outcome.

Tried exporting the video as interlaced as that what the source footage is - Same 60 hours.

The only other thing I did was disable 2 audio tracks, 3 + 4. So enabled these again and just deleted the audio from these tracks and exported.

Back down to 8 hours!

Very Odd? Any reason why disabling audio tracks in PP would increase the export time from 8 hours to estimated 60 hours?

After this video has exported I'll move back to Neo Scene and test again.

Last edited by David Dwyer; August 11th, 2009 at 05:25 AM.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:33 AM   #3
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We resently see Premiere projects get confused (even in CS4) and the result was crazy long render times. And the classic fix for Premiere confusion: Start and new project and import the old project into it, open the original sequence and export. Yesterday we was a system that a 3 minute timeline was going to take 32hrs, we did this project import and the export took 11minutes. Some things in Premiere never change.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:51 AM   #4
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Cheers David I'll remember that one for next time but it seems that just disabling the audio tracks sent the render times from 8 hours to 60 hours.

Deleted the audio from those tracks and enabled them reverted it back to 8 hours.

Tis very Odd this CS4
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Old August 11th, 2009, 02:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman View Post
...Yesterday we was a system that a 3 minute timeline was going to take 32hrs, we did this project import and the export took 11minutes.
David, one thing that still holds me off from buying the CineForm codec is just this. I mean, is a three minute Timeline that takes eleven minutes to export? Yes, its better than 32 hours, but those eleven minutes is still close to 4x RT. I just cant justify those render times with long Timelines, ~ 45 minutes and longer.

Export CFHD to MPEG2 is bad but somewhat acceptable while the encoding times from CFHD to CFHD for a master file is insane.

I have a trouble ticket open regarding this issue but want to hear if a three minute Timeline export that takes eleven minutes is a normal render time when working with the CFHD codec.

I have been testing CFHD workflows for a couple of days now, and the culpit seems to be to decode the a CFHD file. Encode from lets say AVCHD to CFHD is ok, but CFHD to CFHD is insane and not worth the wait when working with long Timelines.

Dont get me wrong David, i really do love the image quality i get from the CF codec, but i strongly think that render times must be adressed. If it is Adobes fault, hunt them until they fix it, if it is Microsofts fault, haunt them, if it is CF's fault, fix it, if it is Adobe+CF, fix it, pretty please. :)

Following CF's advise to transcode the source footage to CFHD > Edit CFHD > Archive to CFHD takes to long time because the issue when one encode to CFHD from a CFHD source, 8-bit or 32-bit float.

Yes, i do work with long Timelines so i really pay attention to render times and have done that for years. :) Feel free to contact me for render tests if any improvements are being made. I prefer to focus on the whole chain, transcoding from lets say AVCHD > Edit the footage > Archiving the footage.

Kind regards, Roger :)
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Old August 11th, 2009, 05:43 PM   #6
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It is all Adobe. We have support questions to them, we do have to pester them more for answers, but we've been busy with other items. Our encoding is many times RT on modern system but Premiere will not provide the frame fast enough (we can encode 100+fps, yet adobe only gives us 6-10.) Remember CineFOrm can capture and encode HD live from HDMI or HDSDI sources. You can prove this putting a still on the timeline, we compress each frame as if it where unique, so the encoder has same work to do, and we encode around 50fps (Adobe still slow) as we only use 30% of the system. Now repeat this test with a opacity ramp on the source still, and the export is 2-5 times slower (random it seems) -- all Adobe, adobe importer, adobe filter, the export options did not change. Your support question should (also) go to Adobe. We expect that will be one of the faster export formats, once we find the magic words to tell Adobe ("go fast -- please!!!" or "have you heard of threading" doesn't seem to work.)
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Old August 11th, 2009, 05:47 PM   #7
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My issues are random.

25 mins HDV 1440*1080 ranges from 8 hours to 60 hours
10 mins HDV 1440*1080 can't get below 20hours

It just seems each time I have to go back and send the project to AME and it picks a number of out its head and thats how long it will take.

:(
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:00 PM   #8
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Please start your Adobe calls.

David, did you try importing the project into a new project -- clean up a lot of Adobe mess.) Also try this: Export -> Movie -> Quicktime, select the CineForm HD codec, and set the resolution. Often Premiere get this right, then you can rewrap the results to AVI (Neo HD and above.) For BNeo Scene users of shorter projects (user 4min) the Video for Window export seem to work less randomly.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman View Post
Please start you Adobe calls.

David, did you try importing the project into a new project -- clean up a lot of Adobe mess.) Also try this: Export -> Movie -> Quicktime, select the CineForm HD codec, and set the resolution. Often Premiere get this right, then you can rewrap the results to AVI (Neo HD and above.)
Hi David,

Yeah I tried a new project and again massive amount of hours. I havent tried the Quicktime export and I only have Neo Scene so can't convert it back.

My Issues are something to do with either the audio tracks 2+3 because when I delete the audio it reverts to 6-8 hours. With these tracks in place it says 60 hours.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:26 PM   #10
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David,

What type of audio is on those tracks (mp3, wavs, camera audio, etc.) While we do nothing with audio -- that is all Adobe, it would be nice to produce test case to send to Adobe.

Roger,

4X is not the norm. I was just venting some frustration we have with Adobe's slowness. We are already one of the fastest I-frame exports, a simple 1 minute timeline here took me on 1m23s to export (it is annoying that Adobe only used 25% of the CPU.) Quicktime PhotoJPEG of the same sequence took 2m30s. We can be faster. Other interesting stats, the same timeline with a First Light look applied (white balance, saturation, gamma and 3D LUT) took 1m55s, the same timeline with a single Adobe "Fast Color Corrector" took 3m52s (three-way color over 12minute.) So Adobe is the major bottleneck. We have work to do, but so does Adobe.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:52 PM   #11
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Hello David (Sorry for my hard words)

I cannot keep myself silent anymore, I think this is totally insane with these render times. How could you expect people to buy and work with your lovely codec with this render time?

I have bought v3 Prospect HD and I love it but the v4… together with CS4 is just a no no.
You can’t expect that people will cope with the task of being a beta tester for a 6 month or more and all we hear is that it’s all Adobe’s fault. What kind of reply do you at CineForm get from Adobe, is it moving at all (when will this API bee fixed)?

I was promised one year a go that the Deckling Intensity Pro was going to work as a timeline program monitor card for CineForm but nothing has happened. My working colleagues did get from your support a promise that it would be ready in two moth, it's been five months now?

I work at some of the biggest broadcast TV stations here in Sweden and I did just check today on how our various editing system did handle the ingest of different media when it comes to split the stereo files in to separate mono files. Every one (Avid, Final Cut, Premier and Premiere with MainConscept MPEG PRO did split the files in to mono files. Why do you think people would like to have stereo files instead of mono tracks. How often do you believe that people are recording an interview in stereo?

Your answer at July 21st, 2009:”We are unlikely to change the audio support in that way, not enough cameras/users will benefit”.

Me and all my colleague answer to this is WHAT?????

We also need to be able to set a proper output path when ingest the media like P2, this does not work at all right now.

I won’t go in to AVC-Intra support, but I think this is super critical too.

Sorry David and CineForm for my hard words but I thing you’ll have to be more precise in your status one these issue and several other things on what’s going on, if not you will lose me and many more customers.

Best Regards
Mikael
Sweden

Last edited by Mikael Bergstrom; August 11th, 2009 at 07:29 PM.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 02:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman View Post
(we can encode 100+fps, yet adobe only gives us 6-10.)
But why is AVCHD to CFHD waaay faster than CFHD to CFHD if the only limitation is "Adobe only gives us 6-10" and Adobe is the one to blaim? If "..only gives us 6-10" is the correct answer it should apply to all renders to CFHD but thats certainly not the case here. And i dont get the threading issue mentioned earlier issue either. My eight cores pegs at around 60% - 65% during render to CFHD and that looks like a pretty good threading. Is that the kind threading we are talking about? I have seens other codecs thread way less than 60% - 65% but it exports faster despite the lower threading. Its about using the threadings one get...

After years dealing with hardware and software companies i have found out that they always love to blame each other. This happens everytime, company X blaims company Y while company Y blaims everything at company X and then nothing gets done because all involved is happy because its not their fault. I talk from experience and have been knocking my head many times by this...

To be clear, i do certainly not want to insult any person or CF, i just want to be able to use the codec with human render times. In my world intermediate codecs should be fast. :)
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Old August 12th, 2009, 03:20 AM   #13
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I can cope with a render time 6-8 hours depending on the project size but its jumping from 2 hours to 20+.

Futher to the problem in my OP if music tracks 3+4 are enabled it sends the render time tripple fold. If I delete the tracks it drops back to normal ish time.

My music tracks are on the same disk as the raw HD footage? Would this cause any problems?

Can anyone help?

**EDIT**

Moving the extra tracks to a different disk didnt make any difference.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 06:23 AM   #14
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Another update.

Exporting with the extra audio mp3 tracks causes the render times to goto 20+ hours, take away these tracks and it exports within 30 mins for a 10min HDV project.

Not sure if its the tracks I'm using or the project. So I'm exporting a Cineform AVI then will try add the tracks again.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 09:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dwyer View Post
Another update.

Exporting with the extra audio mp3 tracks causes the render times to goto 20+ hours, take away these tracks and it exports within 30 mins for a 10min HDV project.

Not sure if its the tracks I'm using or the project. So I'm exporting a Cineform AVI then will try add the tracks again.
Thanks, that sort simple test we can repeat, and report to Adobe as needed.
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