Canon 60D and Neoscene at DVinfo.net

Jon Shohet · March 30th, 2012, 07:27 AM

Hi,
Sorry for (sort of) double-posting, but as my issue is also CineForm related, I'm hoping to get some help.
I've described my situation, along with some examples, in this thread in the Vegas forum:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...t-vp-11-a.html

In short, when I bring a native .mov taken from a Canon 60D into the Vegas timeline, I'm seeing different colors than when I re-encode the .mov with NeoScene.

I'm on win7x64, Vegas Pro 11.595, NeoScene 562

I've identified the problem to be a rec601<->rec709 color shift, but I'm not sure if it's Vegas getting it wrong, if it's CF, or maybe some issues with QuickTime or DirectShow codecs....

If David Newman from CF is around, I would really like to know : Does NeoScene rely on any external decoders when re encoding .mov from a Canon DSLR?

If I can rely 100% on Neoscene getting the colors right, then at least I can be sure that Vegas is getting it wrong. (I would still have to figure out if it's a bug in Vegas or an error on my system).

Many thanks in advance

Jon Shohet · April 1st, 2012, 06:19 AM

Ok, forget about my Vegas issues and the other thread. Here's a simplified question:

1. Running NeoScene 562 on win7x64. I'm converting Canon 60D mov files to CineForm avi files through HDLink. Do the QuickTime\DirectShow\VfW components installed on my system affect the conversion in any way?

2. Bellow are 2 snapshots of a CineForm avi converted from a Canon 60D mov, processed through AviSynth. Which one of the two accurately represents the correct colors?

Is there a chance to get some feedback on this thread, or should I submit a support ticket?
Thanks again.

David Newman · April 1st, 2012, 10:49 AM

I believe all Canon DSLRs are full range Rec601 (other than the new Canon 5D MkIII which is full range Rec709.) HDLink and CineForm Studio knows about this Canon oddity and will convert 601 full range into 709 broadcast range -- this brings Canon footage in compliance with all other HD cameras. So your test is not about Canon source, but about the CineForm output, which means the image on the right is correct (unless Canon has changed the 60D to 709 -- I can tell my looking at the MOV header, just need a small file.)

Jon Shohet · April 1st, 2012, 03:33 PM

David, thank you very much for responding.
I've attached a small 60D clip, it would be nice if you can confirm that the 60D does indeed use full-range 601.

In any case, I can confirm that a CineForm avi created with HDLink, with a ConvertToRGB(matrix="Rec709") filter in Avisynth matches *exactly* the colors and levels I'm seeing in Canon's ZoomBrowser.
It also matches *exactly* the original 60D mov with a ConvertToRGB(matrix="PC.601") filter in Avisynth.
Does that make sense?
If so I guess I can rely on that being the correct interpretation of the original.

David Newman · April 1st, 2012, 06:27 PM

While you effectively confirmed the 601 nature of the source, I also checked your 60D clip, and it is 601.

Jon Shohet · April 3rd, 2012, 05:53 AM

David, once again thanks for your help, it has been invaluable.

Unfortunately, this confirms that - at least on my system - Vegas Pro 11 is incorrectly treating the native 60D mov as 709.
If I want to import a 60D mov into Vegas, and then correctly export to CineForm, I have to manually add a 601->709 correction, plus a Computer->Studio RGB correction.

I guess it's time to open a support ticket with Sony.

March 30th, 2012, 07:27 AM	#1
Jon Shohet Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 277	Canon 60D and Neoscene Hi, Sorry for (sort of) double-posting, but as my issue is also CineForm related, I'm hoping to get some help. I've described my situation, along with some examples, in this thread in the Vegas forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...t-vp-11-a.html In short, when I bring a native .mov taken from a Canon 60D into the Vegas timeline, I'm seeing different colors than when I re-encode the .mov with NeoScene. I'm on win7x64, Vegas Pro 11.595, NeoScene 562 I've identified the problem to be a rec601<->rec709 color shift, but I'm not sure if it's Vegas getting it wrong, if it's CF, or maybe some issues with QuickTime or DirectShow codecs.... If David Newman from CF is around, I would really like to know : Does NeoScene rely on any external decoders when re encoding .mov from a Canon DSLR? If I can rely 100% on Neoscene getting the colors right, then at least I can be sure that Vegas is getting it wrong. (I would still have to figure out if it's a bug in Vegas or an error on my system). Many thanks in advance

April 1st, 2012, 06:19 AM	#2
Jon Shohet Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 277	Re: Canon 60D and Neoscene Ok, forget about my Vegas issues and the other thread. Here's a simplified question: 1. Running NeoScene 562 on win7x64. I'm converting Canon 60D mov files to CineForm avi files through HDLink. Do the QuickTime\DirectShow\VfW components installed on my system affect the conversion in any way? 2. Bellow are 2 snapshots of a CineForm avi converted from a Canon 60D mov, processed through AviSynth. Which one of the two accurately represents the correct colors? Is there a chance to get some feedback on this thread, or should I submit a support ticket? Thanks again. Attached Thumbnails

April 1st, 2012, 10:49 AM	#3
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Canon 60D and Neoscene I believe all Canon DSLRs are full range Rec601 (other than the new Canon 5D MkIII which is full range Rec709.) HDLink and CineForm Studio knows about this Canon oddity and will convert 601 full range into 709 broadcast range -- this brings Canon footage in compliance with all other HD cameras. So your test is not about Canon source, but about the CineForm output, which means the image on the right is correct (unless Canon has changed the 60D to 709 -- I can tell my looking at the MOV header, just need a small file.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 1st, 2012, 06:27 PM	#5
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Canon 60D and Neoscene While you effectively confirmed the 601 nature of the source, I also checked your 60D clip, and it is 601. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 3rd, 2012, 05:53 AM	#6
Jon Shohet Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 277	Re: Canon 60D and Neoscene David, once again thanks for your help, it has been invaluable. Unfortunately, this confirms that - at least on my system - Vegas Pro 11 is incorrectly treating the native 60D mov as 709. If I want to import a 60D mov into Vegas, and then correctly export to CineForm, I have to manually add a 601->709 correction, plus a Computer->Studio RGB correction. I guess it's time to open a support ticket with Sony.